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texaschief
02-07-2009, 10:48 PM
I've seen a lot of posts stating vast overreactions to the state of the current roster. I've seen posts that state we need 3 new O-linemen, that we need 3 new WRs, and that we need 2 new safeties to go along with 2 or 3 new LBs, 2 new DTs and a new CB, a new RB and a new QB.

SO, basically, we don't have a SINGLE good player on this team. I think otherwise. So, I'm going to run down the roster and try to identify who stays, who goes and who currently on the roster can either keep their starting roles or step into a starting role. After this exercise and ensuing discussion, we should have a BETTER idea as to what positions ACTUALLY have to be filled thru free agency and the draft.

Let's start with the offense.

WR- Dwayne Bowe, Mark Bradley, Will Franklin, and Kevin Robinson

Dwayne Bowe is a legitimate #1 WR in the making and shouldn't be looked at as someone who needs to be replaced. He could very well turn into a #2 WR if the Chiefs get Boldin or Crabtree or Houshmandzadeh, but the Chiefs don't HAVE to go out and find that #1 WR. They would probably better served by finding a less expensive #2 WR. Mark Bradley was the #2 last season and he impressed a lot of people but he fell off dramatically during the second half of the season and could serve as a good #3 in the future. Will Franklin and Kevin Robinson still need time to develop as most late round WRs do and it's probably too soon to tell what they're going to become.

RB- Larry Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Kolby Smith, Jackie Battle

Who knows what the hell is going on with LJ. He's still talented enough to be a great back for a couple more seasons and would probably be more valuable to the team if the Chiefs kept him instead of trying to trade him. All the reasons we want to get rid of him are all the reasons why teams won't give us fair value in a trade. He serves the team better staying as the featured back. Jamaal Charles probably solidified his position as the 3rd down back and #2 back. Kolby Smith will serve this team well as the #3 back if one of the first two were to get hurt. Jackie Battle is probably going to find himself stuck on special teams or the practice squad.

TE- Tony Gonzalez, Brad Cottam, Michael Merritt, Jed Collins

Tony is staying. Again, his value to the team is more as a player than a trade chip. Chances are, he at the very least puts up an average Tony Gonzalez year. Brad Cottam gets another year to learn from TG before becoming the future at that position. The Chiefs are set at TE for the foreseeable future. Michael Merritt probably cost himself a roster spot "over a little weed." So look for the Chiefs to grab another TE at somepoint during the off season. I know NOTHING about Jed Collins. Perhaps he can step into Merritt's role on the team.

LT- Branden Albert, Herb Taylor, Andrew Carnahan

Branden Albert played beyond expectations for a rookie who missed the entire preseason. He has the talent to be the franchise's LT for the next decade or so. However, his versatility and college background gives the Chiefs to option to move him inside or to the other OT position and draft the best available LT at #3. Herb Taylor did enough during his time on the line this season to warrant a look at a starting spot somewhere on the line. I know nothing about Carnahan.

LG- Brian Waters, Wade Smith

Brian Waters is a Pro Bowl OG and will be back for at least another season and possibly two. The Chiefs should find a LG for the future at some point this off season or next. Wade Smith is a good backup guard and should have a roster spot locked down.

C- Rudy Niswanger, Wade Smith

Rudy Niswanger is too big for the C position. This position IS one of the positions on the line that should be upgraded this season. I'd expect the Chiefs to draft or sign a new Center. Wade Smith would probably lose his job as backup to Niswanger.

RG- Adrian Jones, Wade Smith, Tavares Washington

Another position that will change next season. Although, the replacement might be found on the current roster. I'd actually expect Niswanger to take a step to his right and fill this position. His size, build, and talent could be perfect for the guard spot. Wade Smith is a good backup and Washington is probably a non-factor.

RT- Damion McIntosh, Herb Taylor, Barry Richardson

This could actually be one of the deeper positions on the line. McIntosh really came on toward the end of the season and COULD keep his spot. Herb Talyor is knocking on the door and could push for a starting position. Barry Richardson was drafted last season with the thought in mind that HE could be the future at that position. Then, depending on what they want to do with Albert, HE could be at this spot to start the season. I'm not sure the Chiefs will be looking to bring in another player to compete here.

QB- Tyler Thigpen, Quinn Gray, Brodie Croyle, Damon Huard

Your guess is as good as mine here. If Pioli is as good of a talent evaluator as everyone says he is, he'll see that the value we'd have to give up for Cassel isn't nearly worth the difference between he and Thigpen. I doubt the Chiefs trade a pair of firsts for Cassel. Gray was a good back up and should be retained. Croyle would be a cheap, young and talented 3rd QB if no other QB were brought in to compete. Damon Huard probably doesn't have a spot next season.

Defense

LE- Tamba Hali, Wallace Gilberry, Turk McBride

Tamba Hali plays good at LE. I doubt they'll look to replace him. I can't see Turk McBride staying on the team. He just hasn't done enough. I know nothing about Gilberry.

LT- Tank Tyler, Alfonso Boone

Tank is developing nicely and I think the Chiefs got a steal in the 3rd, drafting this guy. Alfonso Boone is a good rotational player and he'll have a roster spot.

RT- Glenn Dorsey Ron Edwards, Derek Lokey

Everyone is freaking out about Dorsey and worrying that he could be Ryan Sims part Deux. That's not the case. Dorsey is going to be a great DT. The problem with him and Tyler going forward is that the Chiefs may not keep the 4-3 and that might spell doom for both players. Edwards is a good rotational player and should have a roster spot next season. I don't know much about Lokey other than he was above average at Texas.

RE- Jason Babin, Andy Studebaker, Brian Johnston

Jason Babin really surprised some people last season and may have won a roster spot going into next season. Although, I seriously doubt he'll be looked at as THE starting LDE. I don't know enough about Studebaker and Johnston to be able to give an informed opinion.

LOLB- Demarrio Williams, Curtis Gatewood

Williams needs to be a backup and the Chiefs need to fill their linebacking positions through free agency.

MLB- Pat Thomas Weston Dacus

See above

ROLB- Derrick Johnson

Johnson is the only good LB the Chiefs have on their team. Since being drafted 15th overall, he has underachieved. This season is going to be a huge year for him as it pertains to his future as a Chief.

LCB- Brandon Carr, Pat Surtain, Maurice Leggett

Brandon Carr and Maurice Leggett did enough last season to be considered for a starting position next season. Look for Pat Surtain to be released.

RCB- Brandon Flowers

Starter.... for a WHILE

SS- Bernard Pollard, DaJuan Morgan

Personally, I like Pollard. His mistakes seem to be basic. If he can figure out how to wrap up, I think we've got a SS for a long time.

FS- Jarrad Page, DaJuan Morgan, Jon McGraw

I wouldn't be surprised to see Page come back. But, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Morgan become the new FS.


The way I see it, the Chiefs NEED only a few players from free agency and the draft, while any other players they bring in would be considered upgrades and would render the players they replace as depth... WHICH IS A GOOD THING!!

This is how I see the roster:

FA/D= Free Agent/Draft

Offense
QB- Thigpen
RB- Johnson
TE- Gonzalez
WR- Bowe, FA/D, Bradley
LT-Albert or D
LG-Waters
C-FA/D
RG-Niswanger/Albert
RT-Taylor/Albert/McIntosh

Defense
LDE-Tamba Hali/Jason Babin
LT-Tyler
RT-Dorsey
RDE-FA/D
ROLB-FA/D
MLB-FA/D
LOLB-Johnson
LCB-Carr/Leggett/FA/D
RCB-Flowers/FA/D
SS-Pollard
FS-Morgan

So, as far as in players the Chiefs NEED to bring in, they really just NEED five players to complete the starting squad (excluding depth). We need a RDE, ROLB, MLB, #2 WR and a Center. The rest of the team CAN be filled through players already on the team.

Coach
02-07-2009, 11:14 PM
Great post. I agree with most everything you've said. I don't think things are as dire as most fans.

You mention that this team needs 5 starters excluding depth. RDE, ROLB, MLB, #2 WR, and a Center. If we can get 2-3 in free agency, then this team is on its way.

The Chiefs can get a starter at any of these positions with the #3 pick. I think they can get a starting center in rounds 2-4 of the draft.

So if the Chiefs get 2-3 free agents, address the other needs with the #3 pick, and get a center with the 2nd or 3rd rd pick of the draft then they will have improved dramatically.

The big focus for this team needs to be improving the pass rush and solidifying the OL. A lot will depend on whether the team moves to a 3-4 defense. That could change everything. But assuming we stick with a 4-3 this year, then we aren't that far away from competing for an AFC West title.

I think the Chiefs are forced to stick with a 4-3 this year. They don't have the personel to run a 3-4 yet. Plus they have a lot of money tied up in Dorsey who really doesn't fit in a 3-4 scheme IMO.

honda522
02-07-2009, 11:23 PM
I disagree with Williams. I think he is a great guy, just as well with a totally miscoached defense. He has speed and has shown he can make a play.


On the other hand, Pat Thomas is horrid, he should be cut all together, I didn't see him do anything. I once even saw him being dragged by Michael Turner for 15 yards. The guy didn't do anything outstanding in my eyes.

I didn't see anything about Donnie Edwards. I presume he is going to retire anyways. He was in his prime when the Chiefs gave him up to the Bolts. Sadly enough, he never was good as he once was. Though he was probably a good leader.

Big Daddy Tek
02-07-2009, 11:42 PM
Great job, Tex. I dont agree with your O-line projection though. Most of these guys cant block well in a standard system. I say we draft a LT at #3 and start him there, then move Albert to RT. We need to Pick up a Guard in free agency and put him opposite Brian. At center, we draft either Alex Mack or Max Unger. YES, I AM saying that we should Spend our first two picks on O-lineman. The Jets did it a couple years ago with DaBrickashaw Ferguson and Nick Mangold, they picked up Faneca in free agency and ended up with an outstanding line.

I do believe, like Tex, that this team is MUCH better than alot of people think they are. If we were to stick with my O-line and pick up some linebackers, this team would be very competitve with everybody else on the roster. Can we use another D-lineman? Of coarse, but you can only do so much and I think this is where WE HAVE TO start.

Mcintosh and Herbie can stay as backups and thats it!

Coach
02-07-2009, 11:59 PM
Seems like many of us are in agreement. I think OL picks in the 1st two rounds of the draft are less risky than 2 defensive picks. If the Chiefs can land a MLB and a DE during free agency then this could be a great off-season for the Chiefs.

greg3564
02-08-2009, 12:07 AM
It's really hard to evaluate the young talent on this team. They were so God awfully coached this season, especially on defense. That may be an issue with some of the players, as they may need to be "re-coached" to get rid of bad habits and technique. No doubt that Haley has his work cut out for him this first year. But I honestly think he can do it, but he will definitely need a great DC to reverse the damage done to that side of the ball by Herm and Gunther.

Chiefster
02-08-2009, 01:06 AM
It's really hard to evaluate the young talent on this team. They were so God awfully coached this season, especially on defense. That may be an issue with some of the players, as they may need to be "re-coached" to get rid of bad habits and technique. No doubt that Haley has his work cut out for him this first year. But I honestly think he can do it, but he will definitely need a great DC to reverse the damage done to that side of the ball by Herm and Gunther.

Absolutely agreed! Good post.

balto
02-08-2009, 01:54 AM
Just putting some of options the Chiefs will have if our needs are RDE, ROLB, MLB, #2 WR, and a Center

No trades

FA: (1 DE and 1 LB and 1 OL)
DE- Suggs/Peppers/Chris Canty/Antonio Smith
LB- Vilma/Crowder/Dansby/Hill
OL- Andrews/Evans/Brown

Draft (If LT first)
1) Eugene Monroe LT (Proven he is as good as Albert)
2) Brian Cushing OLB (was great at senior week)
3) Herman Johnson G/RT OR Jonathan Luigs C (Who ever is still on the board)
4) Ramses Barden WR (6'6 230 almost as fast as Crabtree)


Draft (LB first)
1) Aaron Curry OLB/MLB (best overall LB in draft)
2) Duke Robinson G OR Alex Mack C (take which ever is still on the board)
3) Herman Johnson G/RT OR Jonathan Luigs C (Who ever is still on the board)
4) Ramses Barden WR (6'6 230 almost as fast as Crabtree)

Draft (WR First)
1) Michael Crabtree WR (Best WR in draft)
2) Duke Robinson G OR Alex Mack C (take which ever is still on the board)
3) Herman Johnson G/RT OR Jonathan Luigs C (Who ever is still on the board)
4) Gerald McRath OLB (Considered to be the best weak side LB in draft)

honda522
02-08-2009, 02:31 AM
Hey guys, I still think we need to replace Jared. I think our first pick should be Brian "Osackpo" from Texas, lol. One of the few pass rushers in the draft. That should be our main focus for the first round.

Then second round a LB, then 3 OL.

Although it really comes down to the Free Agent pickups. I hope we start signing guys soon.

jap1
02-08-2009, 03:43 AM
Hey guys, I still think we need to replace Jared. I think our first pick should be Brian "Osackpo" from Texas, lol. One of the few pass rushers in the draft. That should be our main focus for the first round.

Then second round a LB, then 3 OL.

Although it really comes down to the Free Agent pickups. I hope we start signing guys soon.

I agree with you. The only problem I have is that anyone we draft at DE is going to take 2-3 years for them to make an impact. There have been VERY few D-linemen to make any kind of impact in their rookie years.

I would like to draft a DE this year, just not with the #1 pick because we are going to be paying a crap load of money for someone who will be average at best for a couple years. There are GOOD DE's that can be had later in the draft (JA was a 3rd round pick I think).

windwalker
02-08-2009, 09:33 AM
This has to be one to the most informative and logical threads I have ever read here.

Straight talk, no thrash talking, no "I hate Herm" comments, no silly jokes.

All star thread!!!

hometeam
02-08-2009, 10:57 AM
I was reading over this again and saw something..

under Qb's.. what about ingle martin? they did resign him already this offseason. Now, that might not mean anything, but maybe it says they already have the third QB and both huard and croyle are out~

jmlamerson
02-08-2009, 11:22 AM
My opinion? We have the following starters on the Chiefs who are playing at a Pro Bowl (or pretty close) level:

Waters
Tony G.
Bowe
Colquitt

We have the following players who look very solid and NFL worthy at their positions:

Albert
Carr
Flowers
Pollard
Thigpen
Bradley

We have the following players who have looked NFL worthy but who underachieved at their positions this past season:

DJ
LJ
Hali

We have the following players who have question marks, and for whom it's too early to say:

Dorsey
Connor Barth
Kevin Robinson

We do not have NFL worthy starters at the following positions:

C
RG
RT (assuming Albert stays at LT)
2DT
RDE
MLB
ROLB
FS (Morgan isn't a FS, he's a natural SS)

We have decent depth at TE, RB, SS, and CB.

We are probably losing LJ this offseason, either by trade or by cut, so we'll need a big back to replace him. I'm assuming Tony G. stays and Waters doesn't retire.

Going into 2009, we should upgrade at the following positions:

2QB (late round rookie)
3WR
RB
C
RG
RT
2LG (Waters eventual replacement)
RDE
2DT
ROLB
MLB
FS
KR/PR

Canada
02-08-2009, 12:00 PM
This has to be one to the most informative and logical threads I have ever read here.

Straight talk, no thrash talking, no "I hate Herm" comments, no silly jokes.

All star thread!!!

Thats why we keep Tex around!! :sign0098:

debearzz
02-08-2009, 01:54 PM
Good job Tex.
For FA/D for OL, DE, and LB, there are a lot of scenarios the Chiefs can go with.
LB- D-Aaron Curry 1st or Clint Stintim 2nd
FA- Dansby, Vilma, Suggs
OL- D- Oher/Monroe/Smith 1st, Mack/Beatty/Britton/Robinson 2nd, Luigs/Caldwell/Johnson 3rd
FA- Jason Brown/Matt Birk
DE- D- Brian Orakpo 1st, Michael Johnson 2nd(recently his stock has dropped and more mocks have him going to the chiefs in the 2nd)
FA- Peppers/Suggs

As you can see, there are a lot of options. Most limited option is at OT if one isn't drafted in the 1st. Beatty or Britton most likely won't make it to the 2nd round

Bike
02-08-2009, 02:48 PM
My main areas of concern:
3 OL, 1 DT, 3 LB.
Thats only 7 guys and we need help in other areas I know, but I would start here.

texaschief
02-08-2009, 07:13 PM
Ok, so if there's a tentative agreement that the positions of need are RDE, ROLB, MLB, #2 WR and C (excluding JM's opinion of drafting and or signing an entirely new team :D), then the next step needs to be identifying the top 5 PLAYERS in this year's draft. Going into the 2009 draft, who will be worth a top 3 pick? Which player is the SUREST bet to become a GREAT player?

Teams get in trouble when they try to draft for need early in the first. If I'm Pioli, I'm taking the best player on the board at #3 whether it's an OT, WR, RB or CB. I enjoy putting together mock drafts just as much as anyone, but the biggest reason mocks like Kiper's and McShay's hardly ever turn out is because a lot of their predictions are based on team needs. I'm trying to get away from that approach. It's easy to say, "we need a DE, or LG or LB, so let's take the best available." The problem with that is that players like Orakpo or Maualuga don't represent the best value at that #3 pick.

It just so happens that this year is a horrible year for the Chiefs to be picking in the top 3 because of all their positions of need, only one player could be worth that #3 pick and that's OLB Aaron Curry. Now, if there were players available at #3 that could fill positions of need, then yeah, that would be great for the team to be able to get a guy like that. But in order for the Chiefs to maximize their benefit of that #3 pick, they need to take the best player on the board.

So, like I said, the next step is going to be identifying the best 5 players in this year's draft. As of Feb. 8th, my list looks like this: (not draft order)

1. OT-Eugene Monroe
2. OLB-Aaron Curry
3. WR-Michael Crabtree
4. CB-Michael Jenkins
5. RB-Chris Wells

So, with this being our next step, who is your top 5 list?

jmlamerson
02-08-2009, 08:54 PM
Ok, so if there's a tentative agreement that the positions of need are RDE, ROLB, MLB, #2 WR and C (excluding JM's opinion of drafting and or signing an entirely new team :D), then the next step needs to be identifying the top 5 PLAYERS in this year's draft. Going into the 2009 draft, who will be worth a top 3 pick? Which player is the SUREST bet to become a GREAT player?

Teams get in trouble when they try to draft for need early in the first. If I'm Pioli, I'm taking the best player on the board at #3 whether it's an OT, WR, RB or CB. I enjoy putting together mock drafts just as much as anyone, but the biggest reason mocks like Kiper's and McShay's hardly ever turn out is because a lot of their predictions are based on team needs. I'm trying to get away from that approach. It's easy to say, "we need a DE, or LG or LB, so let's take the best available." The problem with that is that players like Orakpo or Maualuga don't represent the best value at that #3 pick.

It just so happens that this year is a horrible year for the Chiefs to be picking in the top 3 because of all their positions of need, only one player could be worth that #3 pick and that's OLB Aaron Curry. Now, if there were players available at #3 that could fill positions of need, then yeah, that would be great for the team to be able to get a guy like that. But in order for the Chiefs to maximize their benefit of that #3 pick, they need to take the best player on the board.

So, like I said, the next step is going to be identifying the best 5 players in this year's draft. As of Feb. 8th, my list looks like this: (not draft order)

1. OT-Eugene Monroe
2. OLB-Aaron Curry
3. WR-Michael Crabtree
4. CB-Michael Jenkins
5. RB-Chris Wells

So, with this being our next step, who is your top 5 list?

To be fair, I only thought we needed new starters at RB (because LJ is pretty much gone), C, RG, RT, RDE, 2DT, ROLB, MLB, and FS. Or 9 starting spots. My bet is that Pioli does upgrade these spots, either through FA or the draft.

The more I think about it, I think the Lions use their second 1st rounder to trade for Cassel or to pick Josh Freeman, meaning they pick Andre Smith at #1. Which means Eugene Monroe goes #2. So who do we pick at three, assuming no one is stupid enough to trade up?

God help me, Curry is the best value at that spot. I loathe the idea of picking a LB at 3 when we have an immediate need to upgrade our OL and DL, but Oher is dropping like a stone this draft, it's too high for Maualuga, and we'd be nuts to pick a WR given all of our other problems. There's no way Pioli picks Wells or Jenkins.

Of course, we're assuming Pioli doesn't grab Stafford.

jap1
02-08-2009, 09:13 PM
My top 5 players:

1. OT - Monroe
2. OT - Andre Smith
3. WR - Crabtree
4. LB - Aaron Curry
5. NT - BJ Raji

I dont think Beanie Wells is top 5 material only because of his injury history. On a running back any lower body injury can take years off a career.

I dont really know much about Michael Jenkins.

At the Senior bowl, BJ Raji looked like a man among children, usually a good sign for defensive lineman.

What I think will happen:
1. Detroit - Smith
2. St Louis - Monroe
3. KC - Curry
4. Seattle - Crabtree

Detroit will go after Cassel like JM said, but he will take an offer from Minnesota because they have almost all the pieces to go to the show. They will go with an OT and hope Sanchez is there when they pick again in the 1st.

St Louis will take either an OT or Crabtree.

That leaves us ... I dont think the OT left will be worth it for us to take at #3. We have to assume we cannot trade down. Crabtree is too much of a luxury with our other needs. That really leaves Curry as the only pick worth it at #3.

I think a lot of what happens with the top two picks will depend on what happens in FA/trades, and those may seriously affect us.

texaschief
02-08-2009, 09:22 PM
I think the top 3 OTs in this draft could be interchangeable. Between the two Smiths and Monroe, the top OT in the draft could change its name a couple times before late April arrives. So, even if the first two teams took an OT, that third OT could still represent the best value.

josh1971
02-08-2009, 09:47 PM
Great evaluation, Tex! I think it's interesting to look at the whole team like that, and I found a lot of your evaluation right on.

I think anyone who watched the chiefs closely saw that McIntosh improved a great deal last year. I still chuckle when I watch that highlight of him flattening not one, but two dolphin defenders downfield to spring a big run.
(A shame, consequently, that the running back got caught from behind). Damion could very well be back in red for another season.

Niswanger could easily be the other guard, as he's a good offensive lineman. I just don't think he's a good center. So if we had a line like:

LT Albert
LG Waters
C (FA or Draft)
RG Niswanger
RT McIntosh

I'd be ok with that. O-lines need time to gel, and having Waters, Albert, Niswanger, and McIntosh play together for multiple years will help. Add a good center to that? We may have protection! Blocking!

Our poor team suffered from some pretty inept coaching and play-calling, and I think that caught up with us in a number of close games that were decided late. I'm anxious to see how the free agency period goes for the chiefs, but I'm super jazzed to see how the first Pioli/Haley draft goes.

jb

chiefsfreak4life
02-08-2009, 09:48 PM
Great evaluation, Tex! I think it's interesting to look at the whole team like that, and I found a lot of your evaluation right on.

I think anyone who watched the chiefs closely saw that McIntosh improved a great deal last year. I still chuckle when I watch that highlight of him flattening not one, but two dolphin defenders downfield to spring a big run.
(A shame, consequently, that the running back got caught from behind). Damion could very well be back in red for another season.

Niswanger could easily be the other guard, as he's a good offensive lineman. I just don't think he's a good center. So if we had a line like:

LT Albert
LG Waters
C (FA or Draft)
RG Niswanger
RT McIntosh

I'd be ok with that. O-lines need time to gel, and having Waters, Albert, Niswanger, and McIntosh play together for multiple years will help. Add a good center to that? We may have protection! Blocking!

Our poor team suffered from some pretty inept coaching and play-calling, and I think that caught up with us in a number of close games that were decided late. I'm anxious to see how the free agency period goes for the chiefs, but I'm super jazzed to see how the first Pioli/Haley draft goes.

jb

I would rather see Herb Taylor at RT for years to come instead of McIntosh!!

texaschief
02-08-2009, 10:21 PM
First off, let me say thanks to all who keep complimenting the thread.

Second, there are plenty of options already on this team to fill the RG and RT positions.

McIntosh
Taylor
Richardson
Niswanger
Albert
Smith
Jones

LG is obviously locked down.

So, the two positions in question are Center and LT. Albert could obviously be the LT for the next "x" amount of years, but if the Chiefs take a LT #3, Albert could be moved to another spot (RG or RT). The ONE position that I see that HAS to be filled outside the organization is Center. I just don't see anyone currently on the roster who could play that position better than Niswanger did last season.

jap1
02-08-2009, 10:29 PM
One other thing that we need is depth. There are a couple positions that have decent depth right now or by adding a decent starter and moving our current guys to back-up roles (DL, DB). But we need more talent at the back-up LB spots and throughout the O line. The 2nd string LBs and OL is usually the 1st string on special teams.

Back when Dante Hall was a beast, we had pretty decent guys blocking for him. If we can build some depth through the 2nd day of the draft, it will take a lot of pressure off of our offense and defense with some better field position.

Last year the revolving door at linebacker pretty much guaranteed no consistency for our special teams personnel. Hopefully we wont be ravaged by injuries this year.

jap1
02-08-2009, 10:32 PM
First off, let me say thanks to all who keep complimenting the thread.

Second, there are plenty of options already on this team to fill the RG and RT positions.

McIntosh
Taylor
Richardson
Niswanger
Albert
Smith
Jones

LG is obviously locked down.

So, the two positions in question are Center and LT. Albert could obviously be the LT for the next "x" amount of years, but if the Chiefs take a LT #3, Albert could be moved to another spot (RG or RT). The ONE position that I see that HAS to be filled outside the organization is Center. I just don't see anyone currently on the roster who could play that position better than Niswanger did last season.

I think McIntosh should be considered as a RG candidate if we pick up a tackle. He has the size and strength to hold his own. His biggest weakness (in my opinion) is his lateral footwork. He seemed to get beat my speed rushes to the outside. Put him at guard and his weakness isnt as much of an issue. I would love to see him pull and run over more guys like he did at Miami. I just have concerns over his ability to protect against the pass.

fairladyZ
02-08-2009, 10:44 PM
I'm almost spot on with Tex's evaluation. I am not however with everyone on our extreme needs for OL. Yes we need a patch maybe 2 to the OL but i don't think we take OL with our first pick.
We scored quite abit once the offense started clicking. The OL came together and Thig helped them out being mobile. I was liking what i was seeing. I believe our biggest issue is on Defense. We HAVE to be able to get pressure and stop teams. We need to generate 3 n outs before the other team reaches the red zone. I mean come on our defense let teams march all teh way down until the red zone THEN they stiffened up. We need to stop that and generate some pressure. Our corners and safeties are fine it's the LB's and DL letting qb's just sitting back and pick us apart. Nobody can cover an NFL receiver forever.

I think we need to get a playmaker with our first pick. I think it definetly needs to be on Defense but if it has to be offense (aka Crabtree) then i'm ok with that. i think i'm leaning more towards Curry over anyone else though. However if we do that we HAVE TO at all costs sign a very good DE. Sounds like Suggs is not leaving Baltimore to hopefully Peppers unless we get some off the wall shot at Ware. I think RB is about as important as CB. I don't think LJ is going anywhere and if we actually start using him so he's happy i think he will generate ALOT of offense for us still.

texaschief
02-08-2009, 10:56 PM
I'm almost spot on with Tex's evaluation. I am not however with everyone on our extreme needs for OL. Yes we need a patch maybe 2 to the OL but i don't think we take OL with our first pick.
We scored quite abit once the offense started clicking. The OL came together and Thig helped them out being mobile. I was liking what i was seeing. I believe our biggest issue is on Defense. We HAVE to be able to get pressure and stop teams. We need to generate 3 n outs before the other team reaches the red zone. I mean come on our defense let teams march all teh way down until the red zone THEN they stiffened up. We need to stop that and generate some pressure. Our corners and safeties are fine it's the LB's and DL letting qb's just sitting back and pick us apart. Nobody can cover an NFL receiver forever.

I think we need to get a playmaker with our first pick. I think it definetly needs to be on Defense but if it has to be offense (aka Crabtree) then i'm ok with that. i think i'm leaning more towards Curry over anyone else though. However if we do that we HAVE TO at all costs sign a very good DE. Sounds like Suggs is not leaving Baltimore to hopefully Peppers unless we get some off the wall shot at Ware. I think RB is about as important as CB. I don't think LJ is going anywhere and if we actually start using him so he's happy i think he will generate ALOT of offense for us still.

The defense that was run last season was a "bend don't break" defense. It's design was to give up no more than 3 pts per offensive trip. With an offensive philosophy of ball control and winning the time of possession battle, the defensive philosophy could've been a sound one.

But, I agree. There needs to be a change.

jmlamerson
02-08-2009, 11:37 PM
My top 5 players:

1. OT - Monroe
2. OT - Andre Smith
3. WR - Crabtree
4. LB - Aaron Curry
5. NT - BJ Raji

I dont think Beanie Wells is top 5 material only because of his injury history. On a running back any lower body injury can take years off a career.

I dont really know much about Michael Jenkins.

At the Senior bowl, BJ Raji looked like a man among children, usually a good sign for defensive lineman.

What I think will happen:
1. Detroit - Smith
2. St Louis - Monroe
3. KC - Curry
4. Seattle - Crabtree

Detroit will go after Cassel like JM said, but he will take an offer from Minnesota because they have almost all the pieces to go to the show. They will go with an OT and hope Sanchez is there when they pick again in the 1st.

St Louis will take either an OT or Crabtree.

That leaves us ... I dont think the OT left will be worth it for us to take at #3. We have to assume we cannot trade down. Crabtree is too much of a luxury with our other needs. That really leaves Curry as the only pick worth it at #3.

I think a lot of what happens with the top two picks will depend on what happens in FA/trades, and those may seriously affect us.

I forgot about Raji. If we move to a 3-4, he'd be our obvious 1st round pick.

Coach
02-09-2009, 12:02 AM
So, with this being our next step, who is your top 5 list?

I think it's impossible to accurately predict what this team does in the draft until after we see what we can get done during free agency.


The ONE position that I see that HAS to be filled outside the organization is Center. I just don't see anyone currently on the roster who could play that position better than Niswanger did last season.

I think the Chiefs can get a very good Center in the 2nd rd.


One other thing that we need is depth.


This is where I see McIntosh fitting in. I think could be a decent backup at RT, but not a starter.


I think McIntosh should be considered as a RG candidate if we pick up a tackle. He has the size and strength to hold his own. His biggest weakness (in my opinion) is his lateral footwork. He seemed to get beat my speed rushes to the outside. Put him at guard and his weakness isnt as much of an issue. I would love to see him pull and run over more guys like he did at Miami. I just have concerns over his ability to protect against the pass.

I noticed the same things. He was very vurnerable to the speed rush. I've not thought about him moving to RG. I'm not sure if he's a capable starter at that spot.


Overall, I think this team needs to address the lack of a pass rush through free agency. If they can get a big time DE or MLB or both, then I think this draft becomes much easier to predict.

I'm hopeful that the Chiefs don't use the #3 pick on a QB. I think that if the Chiefs were to use the #3 pick on a QB, that he would most likely not be starting. I can't imagine that we would throw a new QB to the wolves on day 1 when we have Thigpen available. So that means if you draft a QB at #3, your 1st rd pick will be riding the bench next year. I just think that is a luxury this team can't afford right now. They need someone who can start in week 1 with that pick. They need starters. There are plenty of free agent options to provide depth at QB. Names like Leftwich and Simms are serviceable backups.

No QB at #3!

hardcorechiefsfan
02-09-2009, 12:22 AM
...I think the Chiefs can get a very good Center in the 2nd rd...[quote]
Isn't the only thing a center has to do is pass a ball between his legs???
[quote]...No QB at #3!
I definitely agree!

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-09-2009, 12:23 AM
I'm hopeful that the Chiefs don't use the #3 pick on a QB. I think that if the Chiefs were to use the #3 pick on a QB, that he would most likely not be starting. I can't imagine that we would throw a new QB to the wolves on day 1 when we have Thigpen available. So that means if you draft a QB at #3, your 1st rd pick will be riding the bench next year. I just think that is a luxury this team can't afford right now. They need someone who can start in week 1 with that pick. They need starters. There are plenty of free agent options to provide depth at QB. Names like Leftwich and Simms are serviceable backups.

No QB at #3!

Why can't they afford sitting a QB? This team is not going to the playoffs next year, especially with the killer schedule we have. I think this is the perfect year to take a QB and let him sit and learn. Thigpen hasn't proved he can run a pro offense yet and he has many other unanswered questions. Next year's class of QB's is also bad, so it's likely we won't be able to draft one for another 2 years. Sanchez and Stafford are both very good prospects that I would have no problem with at #3. When have the Chiefs ever had a franchise QB? We need one and both guys have a chance to be that guy.

jmlamerson
02-09-2009, 12:33 AM
Why can't they afford sitting a QB? This team is not going to the playoffs next year, especially with the killer schedule we have. I think this is the perfect year to take a QB and let him sit and learn. Thigpen hasn't proved he can run a pro offense yet and he has many other unanswered questions. Next year's class of QB's is also bad, so it's likely we won't be able to draft one for another 2 years. Sanchez and Stafford are both very good prospects that I would have no problem with at #3. When have the Chiefs ever had a franchise QB? We need one and both guys have a chance to be that guy.

If we're looking to draft a QB for the future, why not just wait until 2010 when there are great QBs in the draft? How can you call a class with Bradford, Tebow, and McCoy a bad class?!?!

My problem with Stafford and Sanchez is that they're a couple of underclassmen that will need plenty of TLC before they're adequate NFL QBs. They aren't good enough to draft at the 3 spot. This would be a reach of Alex Smith/David Carr/Akili Smith proportions for either guy.

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-09-2009, 12:42 AM
If we're looking to draft a QB for the future, why not just wait until 2010 when there are great QBs in the draft? How can you call a class with Bradford, Tebow, and McCoy a bad class?!?!

My problem with Stafford and Sanchez is that they're a couple of underclassmen that will need plenty of TLC before they're adequate NFL QBs. They aren't good enough to draft at the 3 spot. This would be a reach of Alex Smith/David Carr/Akili Smith proportions for either guy.

Tebow isn't an NFL QB, and the other two come from spread offenses. Not many QB's come to the pros and succeed while running the spread in college. I like Bradford as a prospect, but not McCoy. And Bradford will likely be gone very early and we won't be in position to select him. I think this is our best chance to get a franchise QB and the timing is good.

I agree with your concern about the experience of both QB's. It worries me as well especially with Sanchez, but we need a QB. The spread and pistol is not happening with Haley here and Tyler can't run a pro-style offense at the moment. Why don't you think either is worth the #3 pick? They both impress the hell out of me.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 12:48 AM
I think it's impossible to accurately predict what this team does in the draft until after we see what we can get done during free agency.


I think the Chiefs can get a very good Center in the 2nd rd.


I don't think it's impossible to accurately predict what the team will do in the draft if you go thru the same process the organization will. So, identifying who your primary target will be at #3 and figuring out the likely hood of that player still being available at that spot, you can reasonably figure out who the team will target in free agency.

The problem we have right now in this process is that we don't know for sure that they're going to stick with the 4-3. My guess is that they will stay with the 4-3 for a while because all the young talent that was brought in over the last few years was geared for the 4-3 and you can't just throw that good, young talent away because you want to implement a different system.

So, my evaluation and future estimations will be based on an assumption that we're keeping the 4-3 until there is definitive proof that they're going to change.

The second round could be ripe for a Center prospect. But again, I'm not excited about spending any picks in the first three rounds on any player who ISN'T the best player available. If Unger or Mack are there and they represent the best value, then yeah, draft him.

jmlamerson
02-09-2009, 12:52 AM
Tebow isn't an NFL QB, and the other two come from spread offenses. Not many QB's come to the pros and succeed while running the spread in college. I like Bradford as a prospect, but not McCoy. And Bradford will likely be gone very early and we won't be in position to select him. I think this is our best chance to get a franchise QB and the timing is good.

I agree with your concern about the experience of both QB's. It worries me as well especially with Sanchez, but we need a QB. The spread and pistol is not happening with Haley here and Tyler can't run a pro-style offense at the moment. Why don't you think either is worth the #3 pick? They both impress the hell out of me.

Neither's work the #3 pick because they'll need to sit on the bench a couple years. I can't think of a single QB who successfully came out his junior year. Michael Vick? I can think of a lot of failures.

I don't want to tie up $8M a year in either Sanchez or Stafford to sit on the bench, especially since I don't think either is a good prospect. I don't like Stafford's erratic passing (yeah, I know he's gotten better every year, but still), and Sanchez only came out in 2009 because he knows he's a 2nd rounder (at best) in 2010.

We have no idea whether Tyler can run a pro offense. He's never had an OL with which to find out.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 01:04 AM
No QB in this draft represents the best value at the #3 spot. If you want a QB, you either need to trade down from #3 or up from #35. Neither Stafford nor Sanchez are as highly thought of as even Matt Ryan, David Carr, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart or Brady Quinn were, coming off their final college seasons. There is a lot of concern over both these QBs right now and some "experts" think they both should've returned for their senior seasons.

I'm not interested in a QB who isn't a "can't miss" prospect at #3. The bust % for QBs is so high, this team just can't afford that type of hit at this juncture. That's not to say the Chiefs shouldn't spend a first round pick on a QB at some point soon... it just shouldn't be the #3 pick on THIS group of QBs. If those two guys drop like Quinn did and get in the 20s, then the Chiefs might have to consider trading up from 35.

Personally, I have my eye on Jevon Snead from Ole Miss. If he comes out next year... that's the guy I want.

Bike
02-09-2009, 01:27 AM
I think Monroe is on the board at #3 and will be reunited with his old teammate Albert and they will bookend our line for years to come.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 06:25 PM
Ok. So, assuming we have out pick of Monroe or Curry, who do we take?

Bike
02-09-2009, 07:29 PM
Ok. So, assuming we have out pick of Monroe or Curry, who do we take?
I would take Monroe. He would have immediate impact. I think we need experience on defense and could get a DE and LB in FA.

jmlamerson
02-09-2009, 08:00 PM
I would take Monroe. He would have immediate impact. I think we need experience on defense and could get a DE and LB in FA.

I agree - Monroe in a heartbeat. I like Curry, but we aren't getting value for the pick at #3 picking a LB.

I'd probably put Raji above Curry as well at #3.

Tell the truth, as long as we don't go Crabtree, Orakpo, or QB, I'll probably be happy with whatever we do at the #3 spot.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 08:28 PM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot. But knowing Monroe already replaced Albert once at LT, makes me feel a lot better about Monroe as a LT in particular.

Do y'all feel comfortable taking another LT at #3 who isn't named Monroe?

jmlamerson
02-09-2009, 08:33 PM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot. But knowing Monroe already replaced Albert once at LT, makes me feel a lot better about Monroe as a LT in particular.

Do y'all feel comfortable taking another LT at #3 who isn't named Monroe?

Jason Smith, Michael Oher, Andre Smith, and Monroe are the only four I can think of who'd be taken that high. Andre Smith isn't lasting to 3. My only problem with taking Oher or J. Smith is that both would be available at 10, were we picking lower.

Tell the truth, if we can't get Andre Smith or Monroe, I'd rather pick Raji, Maualuga, or Curry and wait until the 2nd to pick OL.

Albert at 15 as a RT wouldn't be terrible value. The Panthers basically did that with Otah last year. It turned out pretty OK for them. :D

Bike
02-09-2009, 08:40 PM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot. But knowing Monroe already replaced Albert once at LT, makes me feel a lot better about Monroe as a LT in particular.

Do y'all feel comfortable taking another LT at #3 who isn't named Monroe?
I think, Smith, Smith, Oher, and Monroe will all be rocks on somebodys OL for years to come. If Monroe and Andre Smith are both gone, I still think we'd be ok with
Smith or Oher. But Maybe Pioli considers Raji or Curry in this situation....

N TX Dave
02-09-2009, 08:58 PM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot. But knowing Monroe already replaced Albert once at LT, makes me feel a lot better about Monroe as a LT in particular.

Do y'all feel comfortable taking another LT at #3 who isn't named Monroe?

Well maybe that's why the people that selected him are gone. We have a new sheriff in town and just maybe he won't make these type of picks in the future (I Hope I Hope I Hope)

texaschief
02-09-2009, 09:25 PM
Well maybe that's why the people that selected him are gone. We have a new sheriff in town and just maybe he won't make these type of picks in the future (I Hope I Hope I Hope)

Poor logic.

You think the Chiefs didn't need a LT last season?

N TX Dave
02-09-2009, 09:31 PM
Poor logic.

You think the Chiefs didn't need a LT last season?

:bananen_smilies046:
No I did not say that all I am saying is you can not let what has happened in the past effect what you do now.

Yesterday is history and tomorrow is a mystery.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 09:43 PM
:bananen_smilies046:
No I did not say that all I am saying is you can not let what has happened in the past effect what you do now.

Yesterday is history and tomorrow is a mystery.

If you already have a franchise LT that is on the same plain as LTs taken in the top 3, then you wouldn't necessarily HAVE to take a LT #3 this season. In our particular situation, I wouldn't be completely against taking a LT at #3 because we DO need to fill a couple holes on the line that Albert would be more than capable of filling if he's pushed off the LT position. A LT at #3 could also represent the best value with that pick.

BUT, if a LT DOESN'T represent the greatest value at #3, then it would be much easier and MUCH cheaper to sign a RT or RG later in rounds 3 or 4. I think personally think having 2 first round OTs is slight overkill. But it would DEFINITELY help to build this line into something great.

You DO have to figure out what you did last year and what you currently have on the team to be able to make the best decisions possible for the club.

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-09-2009, 10:33 PM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot. But knowing Monroe already replaced Albert once at LT, makes me feel a lot better about Monroe as a LT in particular.

Do y'all feel comfortable taking another LT at #3 who isn't named Monroe?

So if LT kills Albert's value, which I agree with, who do you think represents good value at 3? I don't think Curry does, Crabtree can be justified, but I don't like him as the pick there. There is no DE worth it. We're stuck in no man's land at #3, because it will probably be near impossible to trade down.

The notion of taking a potential franchise QB is not as crazy as you guys make it seem. QB is by far the most important position on a football team. I understand your concerns, but I think the risk is worth it. I don't know why you guys don't like either of the QB's. Both have showed promise and the potential to be franchise guys. Groom them for a year, and maybe we won't have to worry about QB for 10-12 years. Both have the mental makeup and talent to make it in this league.

N TX Dave
02-09-2009, 11:23 PM
texaschief[/B];117221]If you already have a franchise LT that is on the same plain as LTs taken in the top 3, then you wouldn't necessarily HAVE to take a LT #3 this season. In our particular situation, I wouldn't be completely against taking a LT at #3 because we DO need to fill a couple holes on the line that Albert would be more than capable of filling if he's pushed off the LT position. A LT at #3 could also represent the best value with that pick.

BUT, if a LT DOESN'T represent the greatest value at #3, then it would be much easier and MUCH cheaper to sign a RT or RG later in rounds 3 or 4. I think personally think having 2 first round OTs is slight overkill. But it would DEFINITELY help to build this line into something great.

You DO have to figure out what you did last year and what you currently have on the team to be able to make the best decisions possible for the club.

:bananen_smilies046:

I was addressing the statement about if we took a OT with our third pick it would downgrade our 15th pick last year, don't let drowngrading a pick from last year determine a pick this year is all I was talking about.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 11:27 PM
So if LT kills Albert's value, which I agree with, who do you think represents good value at 3? I don't think Curry does, Crabtree can be justified, but I don't like him as the pick there. There is no DE worth it. We're stuck in no man's land at #3, because it will probably be near impossible to trade down.

The notion of taking a potential franchise QB is not as crazy as you guys make it seem. QB is by far the most important position on a football team. I understand your concerns, but I think the risk is worth it. I don't know why you guys don't like either of the QB's. Both have showed promise and the potential to be franchise guys. Groom them for a year, and maybe we won't have to worry about QB for 10-12 years. Both have the mental makeup and talent to make it in this league.

There's no way a QB could be justified at #3. Neither Stafford nor Sanchez would be good value at #3. If Curry isn't worth #3, neither of the QBs are. I think the best value is either a LT, Curry or Jenkins. Flowers is a good CB, no doubt. But he's not that shut-down CB worth a top 5 pick... Jenkins would be a great pick and could help the defense get a lot better quickly. A CB pick could compliment a FA DE signing.

IMO, it's either the best LT, Curry or Jenkins. At this point Crabtree would just be putting lipstick on a pig. We are stuck in no-man's land, but just because we may need a new QB, doesn't mean we should panic and take a Stafford or Sanchez at #3 when they could very well still be there after #10 if the Chiefs don't take him.

Like I said before, if Stafford or Sanchez were a Phillip Rivers or Peyton Manning or Matt Ryan or some other can't miss QB, then I might be more willing to jump off that bridge. I have NO problem taking a QB #3 if they are unquestionably worth it... neither of these guys are. They aren't even as highly thought of as Matt Ryan, Matt Leinart or even Vince Young was.

If it's a franchise QB we want to get this season, I'd talk to the Cardinals or Eagles about trading a 2010 conditional draft pick for Leinart or Kobb.

texaschief
02-09-2009, 11:36 PM
:bananen_smilies046:

I was addressing the statement about if we took a OT with our third pick it would downgrade our 15th pick last year, don't let drowngrading a pick from last year determine a pick this year is all I was talking about.

I'd be more concerned with taking a player who ISN'T the best player on the board. While it would definitely suck to have to take another LT, I wouldn't be horribly against it considering the current draft class. You're right. That one particular reason shouldn't have too much bearing on whether or not you should take a LT #3. But, if you're staring at Curry or Jenkins and a LT who could be considered equal, that exact reason SHOULD have bearing on your decision. If you have a LT who could conceivably lock down that position for the next decade, you probably want to upgrade another position and fill the RT and RG spots with guys currently on the team or with a draft pick in a later round.

Coach
02-09-2009, 11:54 PM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot.

This is exactly how I feel about taking a LT at #3. I'm not totally against it though, because we need some OL depth in a big way. If Albert got hurt, this team would struggle on the OL. By taking a LT, we get depth at LT and can move Albert to RT or RG.

If they do decide to take a LT with the #3 pick, could they justify taking a center like Unger or Mack with the 2nd rd'er?

By doing so, they will have neglected the pass rush problems they have unless they spend some money in free agency.

Coach
02-10-2009, 12:03 AM
What do you guys think about Pat White? He could be a decent backup plan to Thigpen and could provide some depth at WR and QB. He could be sitting there when we pick in the 4th round.

He has INCREDIBLE acceleration. Could be a great slot WR.

6'1" 192 lbs.
40-time : 4.50secs
Pat White | West Virginia Scouting Report - 2009 NFL Draft Prospect (http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/wr/Pat-White.php)

YouTube - Pat White Highlights

Vandelay
02-10-2009, 12:37 AM
[quote=Coach;117233]What do you guys think about Pat White? He could be a decent backup plan to Thigpen and could provide some depth at WR and QB. He could be sitting there when we pick in the 4th round.]



I like it, he could be the #3 reciever, as well as the #3 QB, that would save us a roster spot. He would also be very dangerous in the wildcat formation.

Lazeye
02-10-2009, 01:06 AM
I am sold on the guy, I would pick him up in the third round IMO. With a QB like him, you would not have to protect him on every down, when the pressure is on lure the D and then let him TAKEOFF and make plays like he can do.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 02:07 AM
This is exactly how I feel about taking a LT at #3. I'm not totally against it though, because we need some OL depth in a big way. If Albert got hurt, this team would struggle on the OL. By taking a LT, we get depth at LT and can move Albert to RT or RG.

If they do decide to take a LT with the #3 pick, could they justify taking a center like Unger or Mack with the 2nd rd'er?

By doing so, they will have neglected the pass rush problems they have unless they spend some money in free agency.

Like I said earlier, if we can identify our primary target in the draft, you can cross that position off your list as you head into free agency.

It seems like the consensus on this board is that the Chiefs should take a LT at #3. If that's the case, you can stop worrying about bringing in a Jordan Gross or Max Starks or any other OT who might be available in free agency.

Now, we need to take a look at how much cap space we're going to have after the Chiefs release a few players like Pat Surtain. Then, instead of just throwing a bunch of free agent names out in the wind and hoping they hit the market, we should identify players who will likely be available in free agency who can fill the positions of NEED that we identified earlier in the thread (RDE, ROLB, MLB, #2 WR and C) with all other upgrades coming from players already within the organization.

We need to identify good, young players in free agency that could fill a few of these positions.

RDE- Terrell Suggs, Julius Peppers, Chris Canty, and Antonio Smith

Terrell Suggs was the first Baltimore player to come out and talk about a "hometown discount" in order to keep the team together. Baltimore has four or five defensive free agents that it would love to hold on to. It's probably not going to happen. The team has come out and said it's going to outbid all other suiters for Lewis. Suggs will probably stay with Baltimore.

Julius Peppers has publicly stated that he wants out of Carolina. The team feels like it can negotiate a contract with Gross, which would free up the franchise tag for Peppers. The best thing the Chiefs could hope for is a poor negotiation with Gross which would require the Panthers to slap the franchise tag on him.

Chris Canty is young and has been a solid DE for Dallas. There are plenty of problems in Dallas and Canty could be available. Antonio Smith and Bertrand Berry will become available from Arizona. Berry is considered a top tier pass rusher... but only when he's healthy but he's up there in years and older that Peppers. Smith seems to be developing into a good DE. I'd rate him ahead of Tamba Hali at this point.

ROLB- Karlos Dansby, Bart Scott, Leroy Hill, Freddy Keiaho, Michael Boley

Depending on what happens in Arizona, Dansby could become available and he would HAVE to be the #1 target at this position for the Chiefs. He has, however stated publicly that he'd like to go play in New York because of the big market. Bart Scott HAS TO be target #1a for the Chiefs. The Ravens have a bunch of HUGE free agents on their team. If they plan to keep Jason Brown, Sam Koch, Dawan Landry, Ray Lewis, Matt Stover, Terrell Suggs, etc., they're going to have to give up some of those players. With their history of developing great LBs, I've gotta think they're going to let one of their top LBs go for the betterment of the team.

Leroy Hill is developing into a good to great LB in Seattle and he should be at the top of this list. Freddy Keiaho is a good young LB from Indy and would be another great acquisition. Michael Boley in Buffalo is ANOTHER good OLB that should be considered.

The draft may not line up the way the Chiefs would have wanted, but if there were ever a year to acquire a good, young OLB in free agency, this is the year to get one.

MLB-Jonathan Vilma, Channing Crowder, and Andrea Davis.

The Chiefs need to take a HARD RUN at Jonathan Vilma. During his career, he has played a full season 4 out of 5 years. In those years, he's averaging 130 tkls. THAT'S UNBELIEVABLE!!! Channing Crowder and Andrea Davis would upgrade the MLB positions, but it wouldn't be anything like having Vilma in there. I've gotta think if they can't get Vilma, they would have to probably fill this position thru trade or free agency.

#2 WR- T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Antonio Bryant, Reggie Williams, Amani Toomer, Devery Henderson, Nate Washington, Michael Clayton.

T.J. Houshmandzadeh is good enough to move Bowe off the #1 WR spot, but he's going to cost a lot and I'm not sure his talent is NEEDED on this team. I would expect the Chiefs to go out and find another true #2 WR to fill the void. Matching Devery Henderson up with his former teammate in Bowe wouldn't be awful.

Center- Jason Brown

Brown is probably the only Center worth signing in free agency. He's been great since drafted four years ago by Baltimore. I doubt Baltimore lets him go, so the Chiefs are probably going to have to fill this hole in the draft or by trade.

Upgrade FAs- OG Jari Evans, S Jermaine Phillips, S Oshiomogho Atogwe, S Sean Jones, CB Nnamdi Asomugha, CB Dunta Robinson, K Rob Bironas, K Shayne Graham, K Matt Stover

As I've already said, I think the Chiefs will have plenty of in-house options to pick from to fill the guard position this season. But, bringing in a guy like Jari Evans would complete the O-line for years to come. If we take a LT #3, move Albert to the RT, put Jari at RG, draft a Center and keep Waters at LG, that line would rank among the best for the next decade even having to fill the LG position in the next couple years.

There's no guarantee that Jarrod Page will be resigned and the S position COULD be a position of need. Phillips, Oshiomogho and Jones represent upgrades over Page and might warrant some real consideration.

I've said that Brandon Flowers is a good CB. But, I just don't think he's the shut down CB all teams look for. There are already rumors of the Raiders franchising Aso, so bringing him here is probably just a pipe dream. But having Aso and Flowers at the CB spots for the next decade would be devastating for the rest of this pass happy division. Put some pressure from the DE spots and our defense could jump to the top 10 next season.

The Kicker position isn't horrible, but Barth isn't a Stover, Graham or Bironas.

The Chiefs are expected to have $33 million in cap space which will be 4th most in the league behind Tampa $42, Arizona $41 and Denver $34. Trust me. This is a correct ESTIMATE.

My conceivable free agent additions:

DE- Julius Peppers 4 yr $49 million $12 guaranteed
OLB- Karlos Dansby or Bart Scott 5 yr $45 million $12 guaranteed
MLB- Jonathan Vilma 4 yr $36 million $10 million guaranteed
WR- Devery Henderson 7 yr $25 million $8 million guaranteed
S- Oshiomogho Atogwe 6 yr $30 million $13 million guaranteed

These signings would take up ROUGHLY about half or a little more of the cap space we have available. I'd be willing to bet that after these signings, we'd probably still have more than $12 million available.

Going into the draft, our roster would look like this:

CB-Flowers, Carr/Leggett
FS- Oshiomogho Atogwe
SS-Bernard Pollard
ROLB-Karlos Dansby or Bart Scott
MLB-Jonathan Vilma
LOLB-Derrick Johnson
DT-Tank Tyler, Glenn Dorsey
DE-Julius Peppers, Tamba Hali

QB-Tyler Thigpen
RB-LJ
WR-Dwayne Bowe, Devery Henderson, Mark Bradley
TE-Gonzo, Brad Cottam
LT-Branden Albert
LG-Brian Waters
C- OPEN
RG- Rudy Niswanger
LT-Herb Taylor

Then, going into the draft, you can eliminate Curry. So, it then comes down to taking that LT or Jenkins at CB. I think if the Chiefs fill that many holes in free agency, they might draft for need in round one and two which might make them take the best available C in the 2nd.

You could see an O-line like this after the draft:
Monroe
Waters
Mack/Unger/Wood
Niswanger/McIntosh
Albert

Things could get even more interesting if the Chiefs go after Jari Evans as well. Throw Evans in that RG spot... whew. With an O-line like that, after they jelled and got used to each other, it wouldn't matter WHO you had throwing the ball.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 02:10 AM
Pat White is intriguing, but I just can't see him as a franchise QB. If I'm going to take an athlete, why not grab Percy Harvin?

texaschief
02-10-2009, 02:30 AM
My Vilma contract is wrong and it won't let me edit.

That contract will probably be somewhere around 4 yr $42 million with at least $14 guaranteed.

chief31
02-10-2009, 08:46 AM
Not that I don't think drafting a LT could represent the best value at #3, but taking a LT at #3 is going to kill the value we got from selecting Albert #15. You don't generally see franchise LTs taken #15. I think we got a steal by getting Albert at the 15th spot. Suddenly, by taking a LT #3 this season, you're basically drafting a guard or RT with the 15th spot last season. RTs and Guards don't get taken that high in the draft. This is basically my ONLY problem with taking a LT at the #3 spot. But knowing Monroe already replaced Albert once at LT, makes me feel a lot better about Monroe as a LT in particular.

Do y'all feel comfortable taking another LT at #3 who isn't named Monroe?

Seein' as how I am not impressed by Albert... Yes.

Not that I think he was bad. Just that he is not my idea of a starting NFL LOT.


Like I said earlier, if we can identify our primary target in the draft, you can cross that position off your list as you head into free agency.

It seems like the consensus on this board is that the Chiefs should take a LT at #3. If that's the case, you can stop worrying about bringing in a Jordan Gross or Max Starks or any other OT who might be available in free agency.


You could see an O-line like this after the draft:
Monroe
Waters
Mack/Unger/Wood
Niswanger/McIntosh
Albert

Things could get even more interesting if the Chiefs go after Jari Evans as well. Throw Evans in that RG spot... whew. With an O-line like that, after they jelled and got used to each other, it wouldn't matter WHO you had throwing the ball.


That is still a very nasty hole you have at RG.

I've seen some good things said about Tosh, but I have not seen good play from him. Sure, a good play here and there. But any Schmo can do that.

O-line play has to be a regular thing. You have to be able to minnimize poor plays, and play well each game, and each down.

If you have the best single play as a ROT fifteen times in a season. You could very well still be the worst ROT in the NFL.

Tosh is a valuable backup. That's all. If you are starting him. Then you have problems.

If it hadn't been for the "run and gun" Spread offense, that we employed, then this offensive line might have over-shadowed how poorly our D-line played.

The Tosh/Niswanger duo may yield a decent starter at RG. But it's a long shot.

And I don't think that we have the means to cover three starting O-line spots this off-season, if we want to do anything to the defense.

However, if we can add Gross, a first round LOT and some 4th-5th round insurance at C, then I think our entire offense is improved to the point where they might be able to punch it on 3rd and two or three. Or even protect a late lead.

Not to mention the improved pass protection.

I have absolutely no problem with putting Albert at RG. None. I don't care if he was drafted #1 last year. He is a top-notch OG prospect, and a decent LOT prospect. (IMO.)

I'd be thrilled to have top-notch guys at RG and LT. I'd be ashamed to have decent guys at RG and LT.

As for the defense, I think that a lack of Jared Allen was our biggest problem. I think that Dorsey looks a whole lot better, if Jared Allen is still at RDE.

I think Hali continues to impress, if Jared is still at RDE.

I think that the entire LB corp looks good (Not just better) if Jared Allen is at RDE.

I think that Jared Page still looks like a moron. But some things can't be helped.

Bottom line... Peppers and Gross in FA. And OT in the first round of the draft. And, if I have my way, a C in the second round.

Beyond that, just try to find some gems for any position that we can.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 10:19 AM
There's no way in hell the Panthers lose Peppers AND Gross.

The Chiefs have the means to fill any and all holes this off season. RDE is definitely a priority. The loss of Allen was big, but it was seemingly inevitable considering how much he wanted out and the fact that he had turned down a contract extension. I think the Chiefs got good value for him and to expect to replace him in one season was an unrealistic expectation.

yashi
02-10-2009, 10:29 AM
Gross is negotiating a long term contract with Carolina. Peppers is going to be franchised and then traded. Basically, neither will be free to sign this offseason. A GM would have to be an idiot to let a franchise LT walk.

I want Eugene Monroe on this team so bad. Seriously, he has experience playing on the same offensive line as Albert already, so that could minimize any transition problems. There had to be a reason he was playing LT and Albert wasn't. I'm licking my chops at the possibility of having a pro bowl LT, LG, and RG.

2nd round we can probably end up with either a RT, C, or a DE who falls. Between Maybin, Brown, Orakpo, Tyson Jackson, and Michael Johnson, a good prospect should be available. Note that this DE should be a potential replacement for Hali if he doesn't improve, not someone to start opposite him. That position sure as hell better be filled by Peppers or Suggs. In fact I'd give up this draft pick for Peppers.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 10:38 AM
Gross is negotiating a long term contract with Carolina. Peppers is going to be franchised and then traded. Basically, neither will be free to sign this offseason. A GM would have to be an idiot to let a franchise LT walk.

I want Eugene Monroe on this team so bad. Seriously, he has experience playing on the same offensive line as Albert already, so that could minimize any transition problems. There had to be a reason he was playing LT and Albert wasn't. I'm licking my chops at the possibility of having a pro bowl LT, LG, and RG.

2nd round we can probably end up with either a RT, C, or a DE who falls. Between Maybin, Brown, Orakpo, Tyson Jackson, and Michael Johnson, a good prospect should be available. Note that this DE should be a potential replacement for Hali if he doesn't improve, not someone to start opposite him. That position sure as hell better be filled by Peppers or Suggs. In fact I'd give up this draft pick for Peppers.

You think a 29 yo Peppers would be worth a pair of firsts AND a big contract?

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 10:49 AM
You think a 29 yo Peppers would be worth a pair of firsts AND a big contract?

If Peppers signs the tender (effectively turning the franchise tag into a 1-year contract), the Panthers can trade him for whatever they want.

My bet is that he goes for a 2nd rounder - same as Jason Taylor.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 10:56 AM
If Peppers signs the tender (effectively turning the franchise tag into a 1-year contract), the Panthers can trade him for whatever they want.

My bet is that he goes for a 2nd rounder - same as Jason Taylor.

Would a 2nd and a big contract be worth it to you?

yashi
02-10-2009, 11:00 AM
Would a 2nd and a big contract be worth it to you?
For me he would be, 29 is not that old for a DE. Jason Taylor won Def. POTY at age 32 or so? Strahan was effective into his mid 30's. Peppers is a proven player who has only missed 2 games since his rookie year and is consistently among the leaders in sacks. Any DE we draft in the 2nd is likely not going to be Julius Peppers.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 11:08 AM
For me he would be, 29 is not that old for a DE. Jason Taylor won Def. POTY at age 32 or so? Strahan was effective into his mid 30's. Peppers is a proven player who has only missed 2 games since his rookie year and is consistently among the leaders in sacks. Any DE we draft in the 2nd is likely not going to be Julius Peppers.

I wouldn't mind signing him as a FA. But when you start talking about trading your future for 30 year old, I don't get too excited. If Pioli could pull off a trade like he did for Randy Moss and just send a 3rd or 4th rounder, then I'd be ok with that. But first day picks are big pieces. You're right, any DE we take in the 2nd wouldn't be Peppers. But we could get a Pro Bowler for the next decade at another position with that pick (Center).

What about a heads up trade for Gonzalez?

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:13 AM
Would a 2nd and a big contract be worth it to you?

Depends. If it turns out that we can't attract another FA DE worth much, a four year/$40M contract and a 2nd rounder may not be a terrible deal. We need to beef up our DL, and we can't just do that through the draft.

Also, it depends if we go to a 3-4. If we do, Peppers has very little value to us.

I'd be the first to admit that I'd rather spend the money on Suggs or Haynesworth, but it looks like they aren't going anywhere.

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:16 AM
I wouldn't mind signing him as a FA. But when you start talking about trading your future for 30 year old, I don't get too excited. If Pioli could pull off a trade like he did for Randy Moss and just send a 3rd or 4th rounder, then I'd be ok with that. But first day picks are big pieces. You're right, any DE we take in the 2nd wouldn't be Peppers. But we could get a Pro Bowler for the next decade at another position with that pick (Center).

What about a heads up trade for Gonzalez?

That's very true too. We have so many needs this offseason. We need to find starters for at least five positions (I say nine). If we can't fill two or three of those positions in FA, we're in very big trouble. Because plugging a 5th rounder into our starting ROLB spot just won't cut it.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 11:19 AM
Listening to Haley's press conference, it sounds like he's going to build a system around the players in place. At the time, he was talking about the offense, but I'm sure that philosophy would apply to the defense as well.

I couldn't be more disinterested in a player than I am in Haynesworth. The guy is a proven liability. He's a great player, but he just can't stay healthy. I'd rather develop the guys we have at DT and spend that money elsewhere. Bringing in a DT would just be an upgrade. If we're going to upgrade a position that would make the most impact on the passing game, I'd rather go get Aso.

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:28 AM
Listening to Haley's press conference, it sounds like he's going to build a system around the players in place. At the time, he was talking about the offense, but I'm sure that philosophy would apply to the defense as well.

I couldn't be more disinterested in a player than I am in Haynesworth. The guy is a proven liability. He's a great player, but he just can't stay healthy. I'd rather develop the guys we have at DT and spend that money elsewhere. Bringing in a DT would just be an upgrade. If we're going to upgrade a position that would make the most impact on the passing game, I'd rather go get Aso.

Don't be too sure he was talking about the defense. The big difference between the two was that our offense was competent last year. Our defense wasn't.

Our defense was not exactly great against the pass, sure, but we weren't good against the run either (30th in the league). A guy like Peppers won't fix that. I know you love Vilma, but he won't fix that. We need someone to eat up space in the middle of the field.

And I fully agree. If Aso isn't franchised, we need to offer him the moon.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 11:42 AM
Don't be too sure he was talking about the defense. The big difference between the two was that our offense was competent last year. Our defense wasn't.

Our defense was not exactly great against the pass, sure, but we weren't good against the run either (30th in the league). A guy like Peppers won't fix that. I know you love Vilma, but he won't fix that. We need someone to eat up space in the middle of the field.

And I fully agree. If Aso isn't franchised, we need to offer him the moon.

So, you're telling me that the new coaching staff should come in and cut every player on a defense that was built to run a 4-3, just to switch over to the 3-4. This is something else that I haven't seen being said here. How could you justify changing a defensive scheme from a 4-3 to a 3-4 after that team just put up the fewest amount of sacks EVER? The 4-3 is designed to put pressure on the QB. The 3-4 is designed to stop the run and generally has to blitz in order to put pressure on the QB.

If we switch over to the 3-4, you have to cut Dorsey, Tank, Edwards, Boone, Hali, McBride, Pollard, and Babin.

Then what? Instead of taking the time to develop these players, you're taking a disastrous step backward while you scramble to try and sign/draft players who fit the new system. In order to do this, you're going to have to COMPLETELY neglect the offensive side of the ball. This just wouldn't make football sense.

You've already got solid, young players in place in Dorsey, Tank, Pollard, Hali, Johnson, Flowers, Morgan, Carr, and Leggett. Building a franchise from scratch with rookie players doesn't happen over night. Again, how many DTs play at a Pro Bowl level their first few seasons in the league? It took Haynesworth 7 seasons to get to where he's at now... and he was hurt almost half the time. You give up on players way too quickly.

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:53 AM
So, you're telling me that the new coaching staff should come in and cut every player on a defense that was built to run a 4-3, just to switch over to the 3-4. This is something else that I haven't seen being said here. How could you justify changing a defensive scheme from a 4-3 to a 3-4 after that team just put up the fewest amount of sacks EVER? The 4-3 is designed to put pressure on the QB. The 3-4 is designed to stop the run and generally has to blitz in order to put pressure on the QB.

If we switch over to the 3-4, you have to cut Dorsey, Tank, Edwards, Boone, Hali, McBride, Pollard, and Babin.

Then what? Instead of taking the time to develop these players, you're taking a disastrous step backward while you scramble to try and sign/draft players who fit the new system. In order to do this, you're going to have to COMPLETELY neglect the offensive side of the ball. This just wouldn't make football sense.

You've already got solid, young players in place in Dorsey, Tank, Pollard, Hali, Johnson, Flowers, Morgan, Carr, and Leggett. Building a franchise from scratch with rookie players doesn't happen over night. Again, how many DTs play at a Pro Bowl level their first few seasons in the league? It took Haynesworth 7 seasons to get to where he's at now... and he was hurt almost half the time. You give up on players way too quickly.

Whoa. When did I ever say we should move to a 3-4? I said that we can't start making FA plans until we know the scheme that the new DC will run. Given Pioli's history with the Pats, it's certainly a consideration. And you're right, we have very few 3-4 players. Pollard would be a perfect 3-4 SS, Carr, Leggett, and Flowers would work out, and DJ might work. But you're right, the rest of the front seven would have to go, or at least be moved to backup roles.

We have solid young players on defense in DJ, Pollard, Carr, Leggett, and Flowers.

We have question marks in Dorsey, Tank, and (especially) Morgan. What, exactly, did Morgan do to impress you in 2008?! He's our backup SS and a special teams player, not a starter.

We have a massively underachieving Hali, who looks like he needs Pro Bowlers opposite him to be effective.

I agree that many times a DT needs time to improve. Not always - look at Vince Wilfork, Luis Castillo, Casey Hamption, Kevin Williams, Warren Sapp, etc. - but a lot of the time. That's why I said that that Dorsey and Tank need to massively improve, not that they need to be replaced. And do you disagree that they do need to massively improve? That we need a physical presence in the center of our defense?

Unless Tank and Dorsey improve massively from their 2008 performances, our unless we upgrade the DT position, our team will be run on the entire 2009 season. Does anyone really disagree with that?

balto
02-10-2009, 12:04 PM
drafting Eugene Monroe with our 1st pick would be ok with me. Monroe AND Albert where room mates in college and they STILL get together and hang out. I'm guessing Albert would have no problems with him coming to the Chiefs.

I know Waters got to the Pro Bowl this year, but I think a lot of that was his name...

I know I might get killed for this idea BUT why not move Waters BACK to his spot a "C"?

The Coaches talked about it the last couple of years, but never did it. If Center is our biggest need why not do this with our best guy?

Think about this,

FA: (We can afford 1 from each spot and still have a TON of Cap Left over)
Best DE we can get (Peppers, Suggs, Canty, Smith)
Best LB we can get (Vilma, Dansby, Crowder, Scott, Hill)
Best OL guy we can get (Gross"RT", Andrews"RT", Evans "G", Brown"C")

Players around the NFL know Pioli and Haley are serious about getting the Chiefs to the Super Bowl FAST and I think KC will be a hot spot for players wanting to come to.

Draft: (Do what ever we can to Trade down, but if not)
1) Eugene Monroe"LT"
2) Duke "G" OR Mack "C" OR Phil Loadholt "RT" (which ever is on the board still and need)
3) Best LB on the Board
4) Ramses Barden "WR" (ya I'm on his Bandwagon too hehe)
5) BPA
6) BPA
7) Chase Patton "QB" (Our QOTF I'm telling ya)

With us getting our BIGGEST needs done in FA DE, LB, 1 OL guy we can focus our first 2 picks on fixing the Oline then filling other holes later.

Just think about this:

Monroe---Albert---Waters/Mack/Brown----Duke/Evans/Waters----Gross/Andrews/Phil

My choice would be this:

Monroe----Albert----Mack----Waters----Andrews

Then spend the BIG FA money on DE and LB, since Andrews won't cost us near as much as Gross.

I also think Waters is good enough to play ANY inner spot and since he only has a year or two left why not USE that versitility?

OH plus we got our QOTF in the 7th with Patton :bananen_smilies046:

topgonzo
02-10-2009, 01:23 PM
I just have a quick comment in regards to the whole Dorsey thing that seems to be a current topic. The feeling that he is a bust or not that good. I think that the hardest postition to adjust to the pro level may be DT. The blocking schemes, the team and what the coaches expect or want you to do. Dorsey was coming into one of the worst situations in the league. Young defense unproven and being asked to step up and block, and learn what the chiefs expected him to do. Gap assignments and stuffing the run with monsters inside isnt easy. If there were more team players up and down the line maybe he would of had more chances to flourish and shine. There are quite a few Lineman all around the NFL that didnt do good the first few years. Hell do you remember Neil Smith? He wasnt worth a handful of mud the first few years he played until our COMPLETE defense came together with DT and Saleamua and well many others. Give the guy some time and I think he will be a dominant force. Pioli I believe is going to want to be very careful on FA and try to continue bringing in and building the team from the draft. I think well im sure that just as in the HC that there is a basica blueprint that Pioli has been working on non stop since arriving at Arrowhead. We have dealt with Carl Peterson and Herm with countless other BS for years. This is a new age and any change is a good change when you finish the year 2-14. Light a fire under these kids and lets see what they can do. I believe the chiefs should have been able to win at least 6 games last year had they been better coached. All of the blame doesnt reside with the coach but I think a hell of alot of it does. The coach is the backbone of the team. His dicipline and ideas have to be accepted by the players and be put into action not just a idea that leaves you yawning.

yashi
02-10-2009, 02:14 PM
I just have a quick comment in regards to the whole Dorsey thing that seems to be a current topic. The feeling that he is a bust or not that good. I think that the hardest postition to adjust to the pro level may be DT. The blocking schemes, the team and what the coaches expect or want you to do. Dorsey was coming into one of the worst situations in the league. Young defense unproven and being asked to step up and block, and learn what the chiefs expected him to do. Gap assignments and stuffing the run with monsters inside isnt easy. If there were more team players up and down the line maybe he would of had more chances to flourish and shine. There are quite a few Lineman all around the NFL that didnt do good the first few years. Hell do you remember Neil Smith? He wasnt worth a handful of mud the first few years he played until our COMPLETE defense came together with DT and Saleamua and well many others. Give the guy some time and I think he will be a dominant force. Pioli I believe is going to want to be very careful on FA and try to continue bringing in and building the team from the draft. I think well im sure that just as in the HC that there is a basica blueprint that Pioli has been working on non stop since arriving at Arrowhead. We have dealt with Carl Peterson and Herm with countless other BS for years. This is a new age and any change is a good change when you finish the year 2-14. Light a fire under these kids and lets see what they can do. I believe the chiefs should have been able to win at least 6 games last year had they been better coached. All of the blame doesnt reside with the coach but I think a hell of alot of it does. The coach is the backbone of the team. His dicipline and ideas have to be accepted by the players and be put into action not just a idea that leaves you yawning.

Good post. Quite frankly I think anyone willing to call Dorsey a bust already needs to go back and watch some of his college tape. It's too soon to judge him, and the chances of him being great are much higher than being a bust, in my opinion.

N TX Dave
02-10-2009, 03:33 PM
Good post. Quite frankly I think anyone willing to call Dorsey a bust already needs to go back and watch some of his college tape. It's too soon to judge him, and the chances of him being great are much higher than being a bust, in my opinion.

Those same people that are calling Dorsey a bust are the same one's that will be in here two years from now if we don't win the SB saying I told you so Pioli & Haley are busts we should have never hired two untested people to run our Chiefs.
:mob:

Codac
02-10-2009, 03:54 PM
Very nice post. I agree with you on pretty much everything. I think drafting an OT with the #3 pick is not the right way to go. MLB, LOLB, and RE is what we need more than anything.

I think Bradley may still be a legit #2 WR. He was a little banged up and didn't get the chance to see the ball nearly as much at the end of the season. Hence his stats went down and people thought he was a fluke.

I'm still confused on what to do with LT. Albert did good there. But if we can find another solid LT we might move him to RG.

KottkeKU
02-10-2009, 05:04 PM
its going to be interesting to see who our Defensive coordinator turns out to be...

if it is someone who traditionally runs the 3-4, we are going to have to make some serious changes on defense this offseason if thats what they intend to deploy...we would need 4 new linebackers (DJ is not nearly strong enough to be a LB in a 3-4) and possibly a few new lineman....that would suck having to replace DJ, Dorsey, and possibly even Turk also...Hali and Tank i think are capable of being a DE, and a DT in a 3-4 respectively...but Dorsey isnt strong enough to be DT, and not quick enough to be a DE in that particular scheme am i wrong? we would be taking many steps back if that is what the route they take....so basically what im saying is that i dont really think they have a choice but to run a 4-3 on defense....thats just the personnel we currently have drafted in the last few years...

yashi
02-10-2009, 05:20 PM
its going to be interesting to see who our Defensive coordinator turns out to be...

if it is someone who traditionally runs the 3-4, we are going to have to make some serious changes on defense this offseason if thats what they intend to deploy...we would need 4 new linebackers (DJ is not nearly strong enough to be a LB in a 3-4) and possibly a few new lineman....that would suck having to replace DJ, Dorsey, and possibly even Turk also...Hali and Tank i think are capable of being a DE, and a DT in a 3-4 respectively...but Dorsey isnt strong enough to be DT, and not quick enough to be a DE in that particular scheme am i wrong? we would be taking many steps back if that is what the route they take....so basically what im saying is that i dont really think they have a choice but to run a 4-3 on defense....thats just the personnel we currently have drafted in the last few years...
A 3-4 DE resembles a 4-3 DT more than a 4-3 DE, so I think Dorsey would be able to play the position. But the question is would he be as good there as he would as a 4-3 DT? Probably not, unfortunately.

Originally I really liked the idea of switching to a 3-4, but the more I think about I realized that the current players with the most potential don't fit the scheme, particularly DJ and Dorsey. Not to mention we would essentially be forced to take Raji with the 3rd overall pick, rather than Monroe who is currently far and away the guy I want there.

I guess we'll just see what happens.

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-10-2009, 05:26 PM
If it's a franchise QB we want to get this season, I'd talk to the Cardinals or Eagles about trading a 2010 conditional draft pick for Leinart or Kobb.

There is no way I agree with that. Stafford and Sanchez are MUCH better prospects and have higher ceilings than Leinart and Kobb. They are not franchise QB's. I don't see how we don't get value with either Sanchez or Stafford at #3. Both have run pro-style offenses. Both can make all the NFL throws and have great arms. Stafford's decision making is questionable, but he won't be available when we pick anyway. Sanchez has been coached by one of the best and has shown his talent and ability to lead a football team throughout the year. I hear he loves the game, studies and has a good head on his shoulders. That's the makeup of a franchise QB. Many of the "experts" have him rated in their top 5 players available. I don't see how we are not getting value. We have a franchise LT in Albert, and I was once for drafting one of the LT's in this draft, but why move a guy in Albert who played great? Doesn't make any sense.

And you really think Jevad Snead can even compare with either one of these guys? I don't see it. Matt Ryan had just as many questions as these guys coming out. He threw a lot of picks in his senior year and many questions about his decision making. The Falcons took a risk and it worked out. Every time a QB is drafted it is a risk, but we are in position to draft a very talented one this year and I think it's worth it. Not trying to change your opinion or anything, but this is just my stance on it. The key to a successful football team starts at QB and we will have a really good one on the board when we pick.

HokieChief 09
02-10-2009, 06:55 PM
I agree with the idea that this team needs a quarterback. Thigpen, in my opinion, is solid at best. Although I believe we should draft a tackle or a DE, drafting Mark Sanchez at #3 would not upset me the least. He has the mechanics, he can make the throws, he decision making was impressive last season. He is a leader, a warrior, and isn't afraid to play injured. I agree with the idea of drafting Mark Sanchez. He is the most legitimate quarterback to come out of USC since Carson Palmer(Leinart is good, but is a complete slacker). I think it comes down to three or four players if we don't trade down: Mark Sanchez, Aaron Curry, Eugene Monroe -OR- Andre Smith. Depending on where Pioli stands, I don't think we will trade down on draft day, although I could be wrong. If I had to choose, I think we should go with Sanchez. It all starts at QB. I agree with 'ChiefsFanFromNY', Matt Ryan AND Joe Flacco both were highly criticized as first rounders last year, and the Ravens/Falcons were bashed for taking a QB so high. Both of those teams had new head coaches last year, and both of those teams were absolutely horrid in 2007 with prior quarterback situations. Sound familiar? New head coach, new quarterback. I have a good feeling this will happen.

EDIT: Oh, and the idea that Leinart and Kolb are franchise QBs is laughable.

jap1
02-10-2009, 09:18 PM
On the Defensive side of the ball there are a couple of guys I hope we target that it seems like most people agree on.

LB:
1. Dansby
2. Vilma
3. LeRoy Hill (Seattle)
4. Bart Scott (Ravens)
5. Channing Crowder (Miami)

My number one is Dansby. It will be interesting where AZ spends their money this offseason, but I think he can lock down the MLB spot for awhile.

I have Vilma second and I honestly dont see a whole lot of difference him and Dansby other than Vilma had a "run-in" with the police this offseason (and by run-in I mean his fist ran into some cops) and so I smell a suspension coming.

LeRoy Hill will probably be franchised but he is 26, and IMO is the best LB on Seattle (who also has Tatupu and Juilian Peterson). However he got caught with weed this offseason, so there is a likely suspension coming there.

The Ravens might not be willing to pay Scott the money he wants. They said they are not going to spare any expense in keeping Ray Lewis, and they would be stupid to let Suggs go. That leaves Scott. I have him lower than the others because he is 29.

Channing Crowder is 25 and very productive this past season, but he has a history of injuries. He is my last resort if we cannot sign any other LBs.

DE:
1. Suggs
2. Peppers
3. Canty

Suggs is the obvious number one. But he wants to stay in Baltimore. My only concern with him is if he has the size to move from 3-4 OLB to 4-3 DE. I have concerns with him holding up against the run.

Peppers wants out of Carolina, and he would be worth it. The only concern is that he said he wants to go to a team that will make him a 3-4 OLB. Not sure if he has the side-side speed for that. But I would love to have him as a DE.

Everyone says that Canty wants out of the 3-ring circus known as the Cowboys, and he is a pretty good DE (and I dont think he will draw top-dollar). The biggest problem with him is that he was a 3-4 DE. He is a lot bigger and not as fast as a 4-3 DE. That means he would give us a lot of support in run coverage, but Im not so sure about his pass rush. Which I wouldnt mind because we could always sub him out for someone like Babin (who is really quick but small and weak against the run) in passing situations.

Unfortunately, unless we can lure Suggs here, I dont see a GREAT DE option in FA (or the draft for that matter). I think we should pick up a 2nd LB in the 2nd round (Clint Sintim, Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews) if we dont take Curry in the first.

On Offense, I only think we should be looking for one OL in FA and one in the draft.

1. Gross (LT)
2. Evans (G)
3. Jason Brown (C)
4. Tyson CLabo (RT/LT)
5. Harvey Dahl (RG)

I would take any of the following, althought I doubt Gross will make it out of Carolina without being franchised.

Evans is a great, young guard (26). He could lock down the RG spot for awhile. But, he is a RFA and will probably command a relatively large contract for a C

Jason Brown is also a really good, young (26) Center. Baltimore likely wont be able to franchise him because they will likely use that on one of the guys on D.

Clabo and Dahl made huge holes for Michael Turner this year. They are both young (28 and 26, respectively). They are also both RFA. I think enough money could get them over here.

I think our team will be leaps and bounds better if we pick up 3 FAs (1 LB, 1 DE and 1 OL) and then get an OL and LB in the first and second rounds. I keep going back and forth between
1. Curry
2. Loadholt/Mack/Robinson

or

1. Monroe
2. Cushing/Matthews/Sintim

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-11-2009, 02:14 PM
I agree with the idea that this team needs a quarterback. Thigpen, in my opinion, is solid at best. Although I believe we should draft a tackle or a DE, drafting Mark Sanchez at #3 would not upset me the least. He has the mechanics, he can make the throws, he decision making was impressive last season. He is a leader, a warrior, and isn't afraid to play injured. I agree with the idea of drafting Mark Sanchez. He is the most legitimate quarterback to come out of USC since Carson Palmer(Leinart is good, but is a complete slacker). I think it comes down to three or four players if we don't trade down: Mark Sanchez, Aaron Curry, Eugene Monroe -OR- Andre Smith. Depending on where Pioli stands, I don't think we will trade down on draft day, although I could be wrong. If I had to choose, I think we should go with Sanchez. It all starts at QB. I agree with 'ChiefsFanFromNY', Matt Ryan AND Joe Flacco both were highly criticized as first rounders last year, and the Ravens/Falcons were bashed for taking a QB so high. Both of those teams had new head coaches last year, and both of those teams were absolutely horrid in 2007 with prior quarterback situations. Sound familiar? New head coach, new quarterback. I have a good feeling this will happen.

EDIT: Oh, and the idea that Leinart and Kolb are franchise QBs is laughable.

THANK YOU!

Bike
02-11-2009, 02:53 PM
I agree with the idea that this team needs a quarterback. Thigpen, in my opinion, is solid at best. Although I believe we should draft a tackle or a DE, drafting Mark Sanchez at #3 would not upset me the least. He has the mechanics, he can make the throws, he decision making was impressive last season. He is a leader, a warrior, and isn't afraid to play injured. I agree with the idea of drafting Mark Sanchez. He is the most legitimate quarterback to come out of USC since Carson Palmer(Leinart is good, but is a complete slacker). I think it comes down to three or four players if we don't trade down: Mark Sanchez, Aaron Curry, Eugene Monroe -OR- Andre Smith. Depending on where Pioli stands, I don't think we will trade down on draft day, although I could be wrong. If I had to choose, I think we should go with Sanchez. It all starts at QB. I agree with 'ChiefsFanFromNY', Matt Ryan AND Joe Flacco both were highly criticized as first rounders last year, and the Ravens/Falcons were bashed for taking a QB so high. Both of those teams had new head coaches last year, and both of those teams were absolutely horrid in 2007 with prior quarterback situations. Sound familiar? New head coach, new quarterback. I have a good feeling this will happen.

EDIT: Oh, and the idea that Leinart and Kolb are franchise QBs is laughable.
Good points all but consider:
Cleveland thought they were getting their franchise qb when they drafted Tim Couch #1.
Same with San Diego - Ryan Leaf #2.
Same with Cincy - Akili Smith #3.
I'm just saying a team with the leagues worst defense and glaring needs on the OL can't afford the risk.
Not this year. Who knows, maybe we already have our qb...Thig may turn out to be the next Tom Brady.
Or not.:bananen_smilies046:

kcmostwanted
02-11-2009, 04:23 PM
Tebow isn't an NFL QB, and the other two come from spread offenses. Not many QB's come to the pros and succeed while running the spread in college. I like Bradford as a prospect, but not McCoy. And Bradford will likely be gone very early and we won't be in position to select him. I think this is our best chance to get a franchise QB and the timing is good.

I agree with your concern about the experience of both QB's. It worries me as well especially with Sanchez, but we need a QB. The spread and pistol is not happening with Haley here and Tyler can't run a pro-style offense at the moment. Why don't you think either is worth the #3 pick? They both impress the hell out of me.

I Agree w/ you NYChief...

Spread mixing in the pros just doesn't interest me either. Take a look at: Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, Gram Harrell, Chase Daniels and most spread QB's... I think Bradford will be a solid prospect but he'll also need the adjustment time from spread to pro style...
So let's say we do get one of the spread QB's in the 2010 Draft, this means that the 2010- 2011 season will be have to go down the gutter too (unless if we want to throw our spread QB to the wolves) if Thigpen doesn't work out.
I would much rather draft a Sanchez or Stafford this year and then let them sit back and learn (Have you seen our schedule??? This is the best option for any QB unless if we really need him to step in right away or if he wins the QB battle).
I think we can get good D players in FA, and our 2nd Round pick can be a RT then 3rd can be C or OLB.
I just don't think a Rookie DE is going to make that much of a difference if we take an Orakbo (who I feel like is the next Vernon Gholston) or Raji (Who is this year's Glen Dorsey)...Don't get caught up in all the hype because Glen was supposed to be the next Warren Sapp coming out last year too....(although I still believe he can be a very good player w/ the right coaching).

yashi
02-11-2009, 05:08 PM
I Agree w/ you NYChief...

Spread mixing in the pros just doesn't interest me either. Take a look at: Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, Gram Harrell, Chase Daniels and most spread QB's... I think Bradford will be a solid prospect but he'll also need the adjustment time from spread to pro style...
So let's say we do get one of the spread QB's in the 2010 Draft, this means that the 2010- 2011 season will be have to go down the gutter too (unless if we want to throw our spread QB to the wolves) if Thigpen doesn't work out.
I would much rather draft a Sanchez or Stafford this year and then let them sit back and learn (Have you seen our schedule??? This is the best option for any QB unless if we really need him to step in right away or if he wins the QB battle).
I think we can get good D players in FA, and our 2nd Round pick can be a RT then 3rd can be C or OLB.
I just don't think a Rookie DE is going to make that much of a difference if we take an Orakbo (who I feel like is the next Vernon Gholston) or Raji (Who is this year's Glen Dorsey)...Don't get caught up in all the hype because Glen was supposed to be the next Warren Sapp coming out last year too....(although I still believe he can be a very good player w/ the right coaching).
Watch it with Colt Brennan, from a big UH fan. :D

There's a good chance he's the Redskins QB of the future since the front office there doesn't seem sold on Campbell, and Brennan looked great in the preseason.

Calling Raji the next Dorsey is kind of strange though... Raji's almost 340 lbs and built to be a 3-4 NT, whereas Dorsey is an exclusive 4-3 DT.

We should really hold off on the comparisons until these guys step onto an NFL field...

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-11-2009, 05:16 PM
I Agree w/ you NYChief...

Spread mixing in the pros just doesn't interest me either. Take a look at: Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, Gram Harrell, Chase Daniels and most spread QB's... I think Bradford will be a solid prospect but he'll also need the adjustment time from spread to pro style...
So let's say we do get one of the spread QB's in the 2010 Draft, this means that the 2010- 2011 season will be have to go down the gutter too (unless if we want to throw our spread QB to the wolves) if Thigpen doesn't work out.
I would much rather draft a Sanchez or Stafford this year and then let them sit back and learn (Have you seen our schedule??? This is the best option for any QB unless if we really need him to step in right away or if he wins the QB battle).
I think we can get good D players in FA, and our 2nd Round pick can be a RT then 3rd can be C or OLB.
I just don't think a Rookie DE is going to make that much of a difference if we take an Orakbo (who I feel like is the next Vernon Gholston) or Raji (Who is this year's Glen Dorsey)...Don't get caught up in all the hype because Glen was supposed to be the next Warren Sapp coming out last year too....(although I still believe he can be a very good player w/ the right coaching).

I agree with everything you said about our QB situation nice post...Ok let's look at this scenario. Long read, but if you're interested take a look.

Let's say we pass on Sanchez this year, because we have "bigger needs" and go into the season with Thig, a FA, Gray/Croyle. Not exactly what I call a group of good NFL QB's. I think it is clearly obvious that none of these guys will lead us to a Super Bowl or are franchise QB's.

Ok we miss the playoffs again and we go into the 2010 NFL draft and draft one of the spread quarterbacks who are supposedley better than this crop (they aren't even close IMO). There is NO way that any of them will be able to adjust immeadiately and step in to start right away or even in the near future. So we are stuck with the same group of lackluster QB's for 2010 season. That's two seasons that we won't be able to compete at a high level, because we have no QB. 2010 is a season when we should start competing for playoff contention, because of our cap space, the draft and progression of our young players.

I like Thigpen but IMO, it is clear as day that he is not the long-term answer at QB. He has poor mechanics, inaccurate, he can't take snaps under center, can't run a pro style offense yet and has trouble making reads. Granted, they can be fixed, but that will take a long time for it to happen. So why pass on a guy with talent that Sanchez has and shown that he can do all those things and do them a lot better?

If we draft Sanchez at #3, he will be able to sit a year and learn the offense, observe on the sideline and be ready to start by 2010. We have a killer schedule next year and our talent won't be at a playoff level yet either. So why not get our QB this year when he is available and our team is in transition? Sanchez would be the best QB prospect in next year's draft if he had stayed in school, so I don't get how he isn't worth the value of the #3 pick. And hey maybe the starting QB in 2009 shows us something, we are now in a good situation with 2 good QB's on our roster. Possible trade bait, or a very solid backup.

It just make perfect sense to me. Sanchez is an NFL talent and all the scouts would agree. He already has experience under an NFL coach who ran a pro-style offense. If we don't draft him, will he probably fall to 10? Yeah, but that's only because the teams sitting at 3-9 don't need a QB. Sanchez is worth a top 5 pick. QB is the most valued position in football, and Sanchez has potential to be a star in the NFL. So let's take a shot at it. I'm not saying he is a guaranteed franchise QB, but he has all the tools to be and has the qualities you want in one. This is going to be our best chance to get a franchise QB in the next few years.

And to people who think we have bigger needs and stuff like that...there is no bigger need than QB for the Chiefs. We can get defensive players and offensive lineman through the draft and in free agency, even if we take Sanchez with our first pick. I think the timing is perfect, but Pioli and Haley know much more than me and they will make the right decision regarding the Chiefs. But I am pretty confident that this is the direction that they will go.

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 05:21 PM
I'm not saying I disagree exactly, but can you think of any QB who came out as a junior, was drafted in the 1st round, and ended up any good? Because that's the situation we'd have with either Stafford or Sanchez.

And does it worry you that Sanchez came out in 2009 at least in part because he worried he'd be a 2nd rounder in 2010?

kcmostwanted
02-11-2009, 05:25 PM
Watch it with Colt Brennan, from a big UH fan. :D

There's a good chance he's the Redskins QB of the future since the front office there doesn't seem sold on Campbell, and Brennan looked great in the preseason.

Calling Raji the next Dorsey is kind of strange though... Raji's almost 340 lbs and built to be a 3-4 NT, whereas Dorsey is an exclusive 4-3 DT.

We should really hold off on the comparisons until these guys step onto an NFL field...

I compared Glen and Raji because they're projected to be the best DT's in the Draft.

As for the preseason... the Colts look horrible every year and some years the Chiefs look like Superbowl contenders...so it's not really indicative of how a player or team will perform during the season (Playing against the opponents 3rd stringers doesn't impress me much...IMO).

But I liked Colt Brennan in college as well...I just don't see him being the QB of the Future for Washington!

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-11-2009, 05:33 PM
I'm not saying I disagree exactly, but can you think of any QB who came out as a junior, was drafted in the 1st round, and ended up any good? Because that's the situation we'd have with either Stafford or Sanchez.

And does it worry you that Sanchez came out in 2009 at least in part because he worried he'd be a 2nd rounder in 2010?

Aaron Rodgers, Vick and Big Ben came out early. I think we are going to see a lot more QB's come out early. These kids are going to all these QB camps and have played a ton of football, more than those in the past. They are more prepared and experienced. And Sanchez is a redshirt junior so he has 4 years of learning under Carroll and running a pro-style offense.

And I don't think Sanchez came out early because he thought he was a second rounder next year. He came out, because he saw that he would be a top 10 pick. Why risk injury when you have a great shot that you will go in the top 10? It's debatable if he came out next year whether he would go ahead of Bradford, but no way any other QB would go ahead of him.

jap1
02-11-2009, 08:24 PM
So we are stuck with the same group of lackluster QB's for 2010 season. That's two seasons that we won't be able to compete at a high level, because we have no QB. 2010 is a season when we should start competing for playoff contention, because of our cap space, the draft and progression of our young players.


I respectfully disagree. Teams have won the Superbowl with mediocre qbs if they have really good offensive lines and defenses. Look at this years crop of QBs in the playoffs: Tavaris Jackson/Gus Frerotte, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Chad Pennington, Kerry Collins. These guys didnt carry their teams to the playoffs. They got to the playoffs because they had great defenses and great offensive lines. The qbs had time to sit back and pick apart the defense. Flacco, Ryan, Pennington and Collins would all look horrible behind our o-line because they would have no time to throw.

And then look at some of the recent teams that made it to the superbowl: Bears with Grossman, Ravens with Dilfer.

What it comes down to is football is a TEAM sport. You are always going to have weak spots and strengths. If you have a well rounded team where all your baskets arent in one egg, you will probably do well. Strengthen the front 7 and OL, then decide if you need someone better back there.

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 08:38 PM
I respectfully disagree. Teams have won the Superbowl with mediocre qbs if they have really good offensive lines and defenses. Look at this years crop of QBs in the playoffs: Tavaris Jackson/Gus Frerotte, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Chad Pennington, Kerry Collins. These guys didnt carry their teams to the playoffs. They got to the playoffs because they had great defenses and great offensive lines. The qbs had time to sit back and pick apart the defense. Flacco, Ryan, Pennington and Collins would all look horrible behind our o-line because they would have no time to throw.

And then look at some of the recent teams that made it to the superbowl: Bears with Grossman, Ravens with Dilfer.

What it comes down to is football is a TEAM sport. You are always going to have weak spots and strengths. If you have a well rounded team where all your baskets arent in one egg, you will probably do well. Strengthen the front 7 and OL, then decide if you need someone better back there.

You know the funny thing. Of all the QBs you mentioned, all were 1st rounders except for Tavaris Jackson (2nd rounder) and Frotte (7th, I think).

I'm not disagreeing with your point overall, but if you look at this year's playoffs, you have nine 1st rounders, one 2nd rounder (Tavaris again), and two undrafted guys who have been to/won a SB (Warner and Delhomme).

The era of non-elite QBs winning the SB may be behind us.

Coach
02-11-2009, 08:45 PM
I respectfully disagree. Teams have won the Superbowl with mediocre qbs if they have really good offensive lines and defenses. Look at this years crop of QBs in the playoffs: Tavaris Jackson/Gus Frerotte, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Chad Pennington, Kerry Collins. These guys didnt carry their teams to the playoffs. They got to the playoffs because they had great defenses and great offensive lines. The qbs had time to sit back and pick apart the defense. Flacco, Ryan, Pennington and Collins would all look horrible behind our o-line because they would have no time to throw.

And then look at some of the recent teams that made it to the superbowl: Bears with Grossman, Ravens with Dilfer.

What it comes down to is football is a TEAM sport. You are always going to have weak spots and strengths. If you have a well rounded team where all your baskets arent in one egg, you will probably do well. Strengthen the front 7 and OL, then decide if you need someone better back there.

Bingo!

Here is one mock draft that has us taking Sanchez in the 2nd rd.

College Football Master (http://collegesportsmaster.com/)

If SF passes on Sanchez, we can probably land him in the 2nd rd. I would be happier with that scenario, but it still wouldn't be my choice. I think we need to improve the OL and DL. Everything starts in the trenches. Everything. A better DE makes our secondary even better. A better O-line makes our running game more effective, which makes our passing game better.

Bottom line, this team has a chance to fix the front 7 on D in free agency. IF they do that, and that is a big IF. Then they can take the best LT in the first round, get Mack or Unger (center) in the 2nd, and take a LB or Loadholt(RT) in the 3rd. If that were to happen, then many QB's would be servicable on this team. However, if we take a QB at #3, we are rolling the dice that he isn't a bust.

Chief Tyler
02-11-2009, 08:51 PM
I don't think he would get past the Vikings if he happened to fall past SF.

Chiefster
02-11-2009, 08:53 PM
Bingo!

Here is one mock draft that has us taking Sanchez in the 2nd rd.

College Football Master (http://collegesportsmaster.com/)

If SF passes on Sanchez, we can probably land him in the 2nd rd. I would be happier with that scenario, but it still wouldn't be my choice. I think we need to improve the OL and DL. Everything starts in the trenches. Everything. A better DE makes our secondary even better. A better O-line makes our running game more effective, which makes our passing game better.

Bottom line, this team has a chance to fix the front 7 on D in free agency. IF they do that, and that is a big IF. Then they can take the best LT in the first round, get Mack or Unger (center) in the 2nd, and take a LB or Loadholt(RT) in the 3rd. If that were to happen, then many QB's would be servicable on this team. However, if we take a QB at #3, we are rolling the dice that he isn't a bust.

Exactly! That has been my mantra for the last two seasons. The offense only goes as far as the line will take them. A defensive secondary is only as good as the defensive pass rush.

texaschief
02-11-2009, 10:14 PM
I've got some things to say about how HORRIBLE the decision would be to take Sanchez or even Stafford (to a lesser extent) at #3. I just don't have the time right now. I'll be posting around eleven CT.

Chiefster
02-11-2009, 10:44 PM
I've got some things to say about how HORRIBLE the decision would be to take Sanchez or even Stafford (to a lesser extent) at #3. I just don't have the time right now. I'll be posting around eleven CT.

We await your pearls of wisdom. :D

jmlamerson
02-12-2009, 12:31 AM
I don't think he would get past the Vikings if he happened to fall past SF.

Given the events of today, the Jets will scoop Sanchez up in a heartbeat if he drops to them. I think you can pencil either Sanchez or Josh Freeman to the Jets this draft.

Tell the truth, I see Stafford, Freeman, and Sanchez going in the first round to some mixture of 49ers, Bucs, Vikings, Jets, Detroit, and maybe even Panthers or Titans.

theaxeeffect4311
02-12-2009, 12:45 AM
Given the events of today, the Jets will scoop Sanchez up in a heartbeat if he drops to them. I think you can pencil either Sanchez or Josh Freeman to the Jets this draft.

Tell the truth, I see Stafford, Freeman, and Sanchez going in the first round to some mixture of 49ers, Bucs, Vikings, Jets, Detroit, and maybe even Panthers or Titans.

That is ok. The Chiefs should not draft a QB early this year. They need to build the O-line like everyone is saying here. There are some good players worth grabbing in FA on the defense, but not many O-linemen worth taking. So unless a big name like Gross becomes a FA, the Chiefs should look to build the line through the draft.

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-12-2009, 01:26 AM
I understand guys wanting to build the line first, but a team starts at o-line? That's crazy talk. The Steelers just won a super bowl with a horrid offensive line. The Cardinals O-line wasn't much to speak about either. A team starts with its QB period. It's the most important position in football. We can build our offensive line through FA and later rounds in the draft since we already have our LT.

We can also build our defense through FA and the draft the next 2 years. Has anyone looked at the prospects on defense for the draft next year? It's filled with studs. This year...not so much. This isn't a one year fix to try and win the Super Bowl next year. We need to to have patience, it's going to take a few years. That's why I don't have a problem developing Sanchez. He has potential to be a franchise guy that can lead us where we all wanna go.

You don't win Super Bowls with serviceable QB's anymore. The only exception being Dilfer, but that Ravens D is top 3 of all time. As Chiefs fans we should know that. In the 90's we had a above average defense and arguably the best offensive line in the league. But never had that franchise QB and it got us nowhere and very few playoff wins. I just think the fan base is petrified of drafting a QB high for some reason.

kcmostwanted
02-12-2009, 12:20 PM
I understand guys wanting to build the line first, but a team starts at o-line? That's crazy talk. The Steelers just won a super bowl with a horrid offensive line. The Cardinals O-line wasn't much to speak about either. A team starts with its QB period. It's the most important position in football. We can build our offensive line through FA and later rounds in the draft since we already have our LT.

We can also build our defense through FA and the draft the next 2 years. Has anyone looked at the prospects on defense for the draft next year? It's filled with studs. This year...not so much. This isn't a one year fix to try and win the Super Bowl next year. We need to to have patience, it's going to take a few years. That's why I don't have a problem developing Sanchez. He has potential to be a franchise guy that can lead us where we all wanna go.

You don't win Super Bowls with serviceable QB's anymore. The only exception being Dilfer, but that Ravens D is top 3 of all time. As Chiefs fans we should know that. In the 90's we had a above average defense and arguably the best offensive line in the league. But never had that franchise QB and it got us nowhere and very few playoff wins. I just think the fan base is petrified of drafting a QB high for some reason.

Amen!!! I think we're the only 2 that agree on this.

As I've stated before, I would much rather take a Sanchez or Stafford this year than a Colt or Tebow next year... I'm not all that confident about Bradford either.

If we spend wisely on FA D players we can definitely make it happen w/ Sanchez as our #3 pick.

It also helps that we're drafting at the top of every round... If we pick Sanchez at #3 then we can look to fill in the RT position w/ our 2nd round pick and a C w/ our 3rd round pick. I think this year is pretty deep in those 2 positions.

And I don't understand why everyone has given up on B. Albert already w/ all the, "move him to RG or RT". Give him some freakin time at the LT position. IMO he was the 3rd best Rookie LT last year behind J. Long and R. Clady...

I think we can and will find a very solid RT in the 2nd Round

jmlamerson
02-12-2009, 12:44 PM
Amen!!! I think we're the only 2 that agree on this.

As I've stated before, I would much rather take a Sanchez or Stafford this year than a Colt or Tebow next year... I'm not all that confident about Bradford either.

If we spend wisely on FA D players we can definitely make it happen w/ Sanchez as our #3 pick.

It also helps that we're drafting at the top of every round... If we pick Sanchez at #3 then we can look to fill in the RT position w/ our 2nd round pick and a C w/ our 3rd round pick. I think this year is pretty deep in those 2 positions.

And I don't understand why everyone has given up on B. Albert already w/ all the, "move him to RG or RT". Give him some freakin time at the LT position. IMO he was the 3rd best Rookie LT last year behind J. Long and R. Clady...

I think we can and will find a very solid RT in the 2nd Round

I can't speak for everyone, but my thought process at least is:

1. Our OL, DL, and LB positions need help this offseason if we even want to pretend to be competitive in 2009.

2. It's unlikely that we're going to get starters at DE, MLB, ROLB, C, RG, and RT all in free agency.

3. We have a young QB good enough to put points on the board for 2009.

4. There's no way we should start either Sanchez or Stafford (both juniors) in 2009 if we draft them.

5. We don't want to plug in a bunch of low round draft picks or discarded FAs at starting positions.

which leads to the conclusion that:

6. We need to take the best front seven or OL prospects in the first few rounds of the draft.

EDIT: And calling Albert the third best LT rookie last year doesn't mean that much, given there were only three LT rookies starting last year.

HokieChief 09
02-12-2009, 12:51 PM
Draft Countdown - 2009 NFL Mock Draft (http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php)

Scott Wright, draft whiz, has us taking Aaron Curry at the #3 spot. He has us taking Michael Johnson(the DE out of Georgia Tech) in the 2nd round.

jmlamerson
02-12-2009, 12:59 PM
Draft Countdown - 2009 NFL Mock Draft (http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php)

Scott Wright, draft whiz, has us taking Aaron Curry at the #3 spot. He has us taking Michael Johnson(the DE out of Georgia Tech) in the 2nd round.

That's the best mock I've seen so far this year. I think he's wrong about the Jets - they're jumping on Josh Freeman if he drops that far given Favre's retirement - and about the Colts, who are going DT, but it's a great mock and I see it playing out pretty close to this.

If Curry and Johnson are our top two picks, I can't complain that much, so long as our 3rd, 4th, and 5th picks are OL.

topgonzo
02-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Just my opinion, A quarterback is a huge gamble with a first round pick. Normally takes a year or two to actually see some high production from a QB. I could see us possibly going through FA or a trade for Cassell at QB or even sticking it out with Thigpen who is actually not a bad QB and can definately improve with some more experience with the offense and coaches around him. I can see 3 areas that need addressed immediately.

1.) Linebacker- Here Curry would be a monster. They need someone that can plug gaps, cover or rush the passer. Someone who is a leader that can talk the talk and smash heads with big boys.

2.) DE- Peppers or through draft the chiefs need a damn pass rush. This will help our D backs and pass coverage as well as the rush defense and overall defensive stats. Just like my saying the only thing a prevent defense does is prevents you from winning the game. No rush then to much pressure on your defense. This needs addressed.

3.) Offensive line- Draft 2nd round possibly or FA pick up. We need to either move Albert to guard which imo would be ideal and get a tackle or add one poss 2 lineman or throw some competition into the mix.

With Haley as HC and poss calling the plays and hopefully adding a defensive coordinator that can motivate and light a fire in some of these young guys and give them a blue print of schemes to run and pressure on the QB with a new front office attitude I personally think the Chiefs could finish 8-8 next year with the playoffs in 2-3 years. These are realistic expectations from a first year HC and some new pieces in place. We all know that from the past the worst thing to try and do is to count on FA pickups on defense like the long long list of LBS and corners that are either past their prime or just fail at production.

dbolan
02-12-2009, 02:10 PM
That's the best mock I've seen so far this year. I think he's wrong about the Jets - they're jumping on Josh Freeman if he drops that far given Favre's retirement - and about the Colts, who are going DT, but it's a great mock and I see it playing out pretty close to this.

If Curry and Johnson are our top two picks, I can't complain that much, so long as our 3rd, 4th, and 5th picks are OL.

First, I am sure you will find something to complain about if in fact, those are the first 2 KC picks.

Second, we already have 3rd, 4th and 5th rd lineman and that has not seemed to work out, has it?

LMAO

jmlamerson
02-12-2009, 02:33 PM
First, I am sure you will find something to complain about if in fact, those are the first 2 KC picks.

Second, we already have 3rd, 4th and 5th rd lineman and that has not seemed to work out, has it?

LMAO

No, those two picks are fine for the first couple rounds. We need a LB and DE badly.

And our OL is Albert (1st), Waters (undrafted), Niswanger (undrafted), Jones (FA), and, McIntosh (FA). Our reserves are Herb Taylor (6th round), Barry Richardson (6th), and Wade Smith (FA).

Which, exactly, of our OL did we draft in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounds?

This isn't going to be another debate where you forget to look up facts, is it?

ChiefsFanFromNY
02-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Just my opinion, A quarterback is a huge gamble with a first round pick.

Every first round pick a gamble. No pick is guaranteed. We have been playing it safe with Carl for 20 years with this franchise. Where did that get us? NOWHERE!!! Drop the fear of drafting QB's high. There have been LB's, OL that have flopped when they were drafted high as well, it's just not QB's. The best teams in the league all weren't scared of taking QB's early in the first round, now look at them. Steelers, Giants, Colts, Eagles, Chargers (even after the Ryan Leaf debacle) just to name a few. If the scouts and manangement grade out Sanchez to be a franchise QB, you can bet he will be the pick. Now if you don't like Sanchez as a prospect then ok, you're entitled to your opinion...but to not want to take a guy just because he's a gamble and it's risky drafting a QB early is ridiculous and the mindset of mediocrity. I wonder if the guys who don't want a Sanchez or Stafford have seen these guys even play?

Sanchez has played in a pro system, the arm strength to make all the throws, leadership qualities, passion for the game, studies the game, makes good decisions with the football, is an accurate thrower, mobile, good mechanics, good size and will command a huddle. What's not to like? He has all the tools.

To be great you need to take risks. Not have serviceable QB's back there that will make us 8-8, 9-7, 6-10 every year. Doesn't anyone want to win a Super Bowl? I'm tired of seeing everyone's team win and not mine. And QB is where it starts, not with a cover OLB like Aaron Curry. His impact on the game is minimal compared to a QB and is not worth the money or value of a #3 pick. Only speed rushing OLB's comparable to LT and DT should be picked that high.

kcmostwanted
02-12-2009, 06:40 PM
EDIT: And calling Albert the third best LT rookie last year doesn't mean that much, given there were only three LT rookies starting last year.

So out of the 8 OTs (Albert included) that were drafted last year in the 1st round, there were 3 that were capable of starting on the Left side, ( we happen to have one of the 3) and you're saying this is a bad thing???.. The LT position is a hard position to play and Albert's rookie year should not define whether he can play the position or not... Give him 1 or 2 more years before everyone starts calling for his head, calling him a flop or requesting to move him to RG.

Very rarely do we see a tackle come in and dominate in the fashion of Joe Thomas (especailly if he played OG in college)...I think Joe making the pro bowl the last 2 years have caused unrealistic expectations from football fans whose team drafts OTs in the first round.

Players get owned from the Highschool to college transition, and that happening from the College to pro transition should not surprise us either... We need patience when it comes to developing players!!

kcmostwanted
02-12-2009, 06:59 PM
Albert allowed 4.5 sacks his rookie season which was less than many other veteran LT. You guys are crazy to think that he won't have the potential to be a very good LT in this league. I think he will only get better!

1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack
2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER
3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11)
3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks
3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks* (He missed first quarter of Philadelphia game because of a shoulder injury)
7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks
8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games)
8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (Only appeared in 12 games)
8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER
8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15)
13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER
13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER
15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks
15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games)
15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts)
18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games)
20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks
21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game)
21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks
23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER
24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13)
27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks
28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks
29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks
30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks
T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks
T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games)

How Many Sacks Each LT Gave Up (Because it interests me) - WalterFootball.com Forums (http://walterfootball.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7358)

jmlamerson
02-12-2009, 07:31 PM
So out of the 8 OTs (Albert included) that were drafted last year in the 1st round, there were 3 that were capable of starting on the Left side, ( we happen to have one of the 3) and you're saying this is a bad thing???.. The LT position is a hard position to play and Albert's rookie year should not define whether he can play the position or not... Give him 1 or 2 more years before everyone starts calling for his head, calling him a flop or requesting to move him to RG.

Very rarely do we see a tackle come in and dominate in the fashion of Joe Thomas (especailly if he played OG in college)...I think Joe making the pro bowl the last 2 years have caused unrealistic expectations from football fans whose team drafts OTs in the first round.

Players get owned from the Highschool to college transition, and that happening from the College to pro transition should not surprise us either... We need patience when it comes to developing players!!

Come on. I didn't even come close to calling him a flop. I just thought it was funny.

Albert did OK in a pro set and well in a spread. I'm very anxious to see how he does in 2009.

balto
02-12-2009, 07:32 PM
Albert also had waters next to him :D

Don't get me wrong I love Albert, but we need major help on our Oline.......

texaschief
02-13-2009, 01:04 AM
These posts are going to be talking about Stafford, as he's the best QB prospect in this draft. Sanchez shouldn't even be in this discussion. There's a chance Stafford could fall to the Chiefs and this post, while be applicable to Sanchez as well, is aimed more at the possibility of Stafford being on the board at #3.

Drafting ANY QB with the top 3 pick in the draft will be undoubtedly THE BIGGEST gamble EVER in the history of this organization. Of the last 35 QBs taken in the first round, only 10 of them have ever made the Pro Bowl. Only 22 of those 35 have been starters for ANY NFL team. That's nearly a 70% bust rate for 1st round QBs. Only WRs have a worse record. There are SERIOUS questions about Stafford and Sanchez being franchise QBs. For a team like the Chiefs who have serious holes on their defense and offensive line, taking a 30% chance of hitting on a franchise QB during one of the last uncapped rookie salary years is just a gamble the Chiefs SHOULD NOT take.

I bet all these guys had reason to be taken in the first as well:
Ryan Leaf-2
Cade McNown-12
Akili Smith-3
Tim Couch-1
Patrick Ramsey-32
Joey Harrington-3
David Carr-1
Rex Grossman-22
Kyle Boller-19
Byron Leftwich-7
Alex Smith-1

Since 1998, there have been 30 QBs taken in the first round. Of those drafted, I'm excluding Russell, Quinn, Leinart, Rogers, Losman and Campbell because they haven't had enough time to prove they're a success or bust.

I'd consider 11 (including Culpepper) of the 30 to be successful. 36%

The remaining 13 were obvious busts. If you think the 6 I excluded won't amount to much, that raises the bust percentage to 63%. You toss up numbers from the players who other teams hit on. If I were going to base my decision off pure numbers alone, there are probably 5 or 6 guys on the list I just posted that I'd take over Stafford.

The fact remains that taking a gamble on a QB in the top 3 IN THIS DRAFT is still an overwhelming gamble this team shouldn't take when you take into account the ineptitude of the Chiefs O-line, the fact this is one of the last uncapped salary years for rookies and the questions about Stafford being a legit pro QB. If this kid was Peyton Manning or Phillip Rivers who were considered "can't miss QB prospects" coming out of college, then I'd at the very least understand your opinion. But Stafford isn't considered that "can't miss" type of QB. So much so that some people think he should stay for his senior year to help him develop.

Stafford played like sh!t in the big games against legit opponents like Florida and Alabama AND poor opponents like Tennessee and Vandy. In those 4 games, he threw 8 INTs. His team was good enough against Tennessee and Vandy to overcome 2 INTs in those games each. His highest completion % game was against Tennessee. He went 25 of 36 in that game. Hell, Thigpen did that against NFL competition when they played the Jets where he went 25 of 36 as well. Just based on accuracy alone, I'd rather stick with Thigpen who's proven that he can complete passes against NFL talent as he finished the year with a 56.8% comp% INCLUDING the Oakland AND Atlanta games. Stafford finished the year with a 61.1 comp% against an uncharacteristically weak schedule in the SEC this season.

Those numbers just don't make me want to go out and thank God for Stafford falling to us at #3 if that were to happen. Especially if I'm going to have to drop a huge salary on a player who's ten year history shows there's only a 36% chance of him being successful anyway.

The risk factor is all I've been talking about. Stafford could step in a become Joe Montana. Who knows. But looking at the history of 1st rd QBs over the last ten to fifteen years, are you really prepared to take a 36% chance of him being a great QB worth one of the last HUGE rookie salary contracts when we still have other spots that could be filled with lesser risk players?

We have seen teams get repeatedly burned with drafting QBs high. We could be THE LAST team to get burned with a HUGE QB salary for a guy who has a statistically good chance of busting and it would put the Chiefs at a competitive disadvantage if Stafford becomes the next Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, or Akili Smith.

In the history of the NFL, here's the list of 1st round QB who have won the Super Bowl.

As of the 2007 season:
Joe Namath - Super Bowl III
Bob Griese - Super Bowl VII and VIII
Terry Bradshaw - Super Bowls IX, X, XII, and XIII
Jim Plunkett - Super Bowls XV and XVIII
Jim McMahon - Super Bowl XX
Phil Simms - Super Bowl XXI
Doug Williams - Super Bowl XXII
Troy Aikman - Super Bowls XXVII, XXVIII, and
Steve Young - Super Bowl XXIX
John Elway - Super Bowls XXXII and XXXIII
Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl XXXV
Ben Roethlisberger - Super Bowl XL
Peyton Manning - Super Bowl XLI

Almost 50 years and we have a list of 13 QBs. I'm just not convinced taking Stafford is the surest thing to helping this team that we'll have with the 3rd pick in the draft.


Being that the Chiefs are drafting 3rd, they probably won't be able to trade down. Teams know what kind of players that will be taken by the first 3 teams they'll be QBs and OTs. The players teams will want to trade up for will be available at pick 4 and lower. Plus, the rookie contracts that will be handed out in the top 3 are heavy burdens to any team. You hardly EVER see teams trade up to the top 3 anymore.

This team needs to complete their offensive line before they commit to another rookie QB.

texaschief
02-13-2009, 01:04 AM
The success rate of top 10 draft picks in the NFL: By Position

Players Selected in the top 10 between 1994 and 2004.

Odds of drafting a consistent STARTER by Position

DT:***

OL:***

WR: 86%

DE: 77%

CB:76%

RB: 67%

QB: 46%


***No defensive tackle or offensive lineman drafted between 1994-2004 has busted. Defensive tackles and offensive lineman that are drafted in the top ten are the most likely (at minimum) to become starters.

Odds of Drafting a Pro-Bowler by Position

RB: 56%

OL: 54%

DT: 50%

WR: 39%

CB: 38 %

QB: 33%

DE: 33%

Cornerbacks

Pro Bowlers
DeAngelo Hall
Champ Bailey
Chris McAlister
Shawn Springs
Charles Woodson

Starters
Dunta Robinson
Terence Newman
Quentin Jammer
Duane Starks
Bryant Westbrook

Busts
Tommy Knight
Michael Booker
Alex Molden

76 percent of cornerbacks drafted

became (at minimum) consistent starters
38 percent of cornerbacks selected became

all-pro caliber players
24 percent of cornerbacks selected became busts

Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Player must make one Pro Bowl

Starter: Player must start at least 75 percent games over career or have more than 80 career starts
Bust: Players start less than 75 percent of games over course of career (Player must have been in the NFL for at least three calendar years or have played in at least 48 games to qualify. If a player is no longer in the NFL, this requirement is waived).

Wide Receivers

Pro Bowlers
Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Koren Robinson
Torry Holt
David Boston
Keyshawn Johnson
Terry Glenn


Starters
Roy Williams
Reggie Williams
Peter Warrick
Plaxico Burress
Travis Taylor
Ike Hilliard
Michael Westbrook
Joey Galloway

Busts
Charles Rogers
David Terrell
J.J. Stokes


86 percent of receivers became (at minimum) consistent

starters

39 percent of receivers became all-pro caliber players

14 percent of receivers became busts
Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Player must make one Pro Bowl

Starter: Player must start at least 75 percent of career games or have more than 80 career starts
Bust: Players start less than 75 percent of games over course of career (Player must have been in the NFL for at least three

calendar years or have played in at least 48 games to qualify. If a player is no longer in the NFL, this requirement is waived).

Quarterbacks

Pro Bowlers
Carson Palmer
Michael Vick
Donovan McNabb
Peyton Manning
Steve McNair

Starters
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins

Busts
Joey Harrington
Tim Couch
David Carr
Akili Smith
Ryan Leaf
Heath Shuler

Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Quarterback must make at least one Pro Bowl and have a career quarterback rating of 75. If a quarterback makes multiple Pro-Bowls the minimum quarterback rating requirement is waived.
Starter: Must have a minimum of 60 games started and a minimum career quarterback rating of 75. If a quarterback reaches 100 starts, a minimum quarterback rating of 70 is necessary.
Bust: Must have a minimum of 55 games started and have a quarterback rating under 75. If a player no longer in the NFL, the minimum games started requirement is waived.
Not Gradable: Players have not started the 55 game minimum requirement and are still active in the NFL 

Peyton Manning
Steve McNair
46 percent of quarterbacks became (at minimum) consistent starters
33 percent of quarterbacks drafted became all-pro caliber players
41 percent of quarterbacks became busts
************************************************** *************
+/- of 13 percent exists due to quarterbacks who could not be graded 
 



Running Backs

Pro Bowlers
LaDanian Tomlinson
Jamal Lewis
Edgerrin James
Ricky Williams
Marshall Faulk

Starters
Fred Taylor

Busts
Curtis Enis
Lawrence Phillips
Ki-Jana Carter

67 percent of running backs became
(at minimum) consistent starters
56 percent of running backs became all-pro
caliber players
33 percent of running backs became busts
Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Player must make one Pro Bowl
Starter: Player must start at least 75 percent of games over career or have more than 80 career starts
Bust: Players start less than 75 percent of games over course of career (Player must have been in the NFL for at least three calendar years or have played in at least 48 games to qualify. If a player is no longer in the NFL, this requirement is waived). 



Defensive Tackles

Pro Bowlers
Sam Adams
Bryant Young
Kevin Williams
Bryant Young
John Henderson
Corey Simon
Darrell Russell

Starters
Johnathan Sullivan
Dewayne Robertson
Ryan Sims
Gerard Warren
Dan Wilkinson

Busts
NONE

100 percent of defensive tackles drafted
became (at minimum) consistent starters
50 percent of defensive tackles drafted became
all-pro caliber players
Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Player must make one Pro Bowl
Starter: Player must start at least 75 percent of career games or have more than 80 career starts
Bust: Players start less than 75 percent of games over course of career (Player must have been in the NFL for at least three calendar years or have played in at least 48 games to qualify. If a player is no longer in the NFL, this requirement is waived).


Offensive Linemen

Pro Bowlers
Orlando Pace
Walter Jones
Jonathan Ogden
Willie Anderson
Tony Boselli
Chris Samuels
Kyle Turley

Starters
Robert Gallery
Jordan Gross
Mike Williams
Bryant McKinnie
Levi Jones
Leonard Davis
Chris Naeole

Busts
NONE

100 percent of offensive lineman drafted became
(at minimum) consistent starters in the NFL
54 percent of offensive lineman drafted became
all-pro caliber players
Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Player must make one Pro Bowl
Starter: Player must start at least 75 percent career games or have more than 80 career starts
Bust: Players start less than 75 percent of games over course of career (Player must have been in the NFL for at least three calendar years or have played in at least 48 games to qualify. If a player is no longer in the NFL, this requirement is waived).

Defensive Ends

Pro Bowlers
Julius Peppers
Richard Seymour
Simeon Rice

Starters
Courtney Brown
Greg Ellis
Grant Wistrom
Mike Mamula

Busts
Jamal Reynolds
Andre Wadsworth

77 percent of defensive ends drafted became
(at minimum) consistent starters
33 percent of defensive ends became all-pro
caliber players
23 percent of defensive ends became busts
Criteria
All-Pro Caliber: Player must make one Pro Bowl
Starter: Player must start at least 75 percent of career games or have more than 80 career starts
Bust: Players start less than 75 percent of games over course of career (Player must have been in the NFL for at least three calendar years or have played in at least 48 games to qualify. If a player is no longer in the NFL, this requirement is waived).

texaschief
02-13-2009, 01:34 AM
Every first round pick a gamble. No pick is guaranteed. We have been playing it safe with Carl for 20 years with this franchise. Where did that get us? NOWHERE!!! Drop the fear of drafting QB's high. There have been LB's, OL that have flopped when they were drafted high as well, it's just not QB's. The best teams in the league all weren't scared of taking QB's early in the first round, now look at them. Steelers, Giants, Colts, Eagles, Chargers (even after the Ryan Leaf debacle) just to name a few. If the scouts and manangement grade out Sanchez to be a franchise QB, you can bet he will be the pick. Now if you don't like Sanchez as a prospect then ok, you're entitled to your opinion...but to not want to take a guy just because he's a gamble and it's risky drafting a QB early is ridiculous and the mindset of mediocrity. I wonder if the guys who don't want a Sanchez or Stafford have seen these guys even play?

Sanchez has played in a pro system, the arm strength to make all the throws, leadership qualities, passion for the game, studies the game, makes good decisions with the football, is an accurate thrower, mobile, good mechanics, good size and will command a huddle. What's not to like? He has all the tools.

To be great you need to take risks. Not have serviceable QB's back there that will make us 8-8, 9-7, 6-10 every year. Doesn't anyone want to win a Super Bowl? I'm tired of seeing everyone's team win and not mine. And QB is where it starts, not with a cover OLB like Aaron Curry. His impact on the game is minimal compared to a QB and is not worth the money or value of a #3 pick. Only speed rushing OLB's comparable to LT and DT should be picked that high.

I had to watch UGA play EVERY week because my buddy is a HUGE UGA fan and we bought the game day package at my house. I watched Stafford play knowing he could be a possibility for the Chiefs. I don't like the guy as a prospect as a bunch of "experts" don't. He's immobile and he consistently makes poor decisions under pressure. He's got one of the better arms I've seen, no doubt. But he wouldn't have been picked higher than Ryan OR Flacco had they all been in the same class.

Sanchez has proven NOTHING. He too is immobile and overrated due to being at USC. If it's a USC QB you want, why not trade a 2010 pick and get a two year starter and heisman trophy winner from the Cardinals? At least HE has a better resume and better knees.

When people like me talk about risk, it's applicable. Especially when we're talking about a team as young and incomplete as the Chiefs are. We all saw how inefficient the Chiefs were at offense when they weren't running the spread. This O-line, as it stands now, is no different and it's naive to think putting a different QB under center is going to help.

Some of the teams you referenced, such as the Steelers, Giants, and Chargers, had a lot more going for them than just getting a QB in the first round. LT and Shawn Merriman had a little to do with the Charger's success. Eli Manning STILL isn't all that great, but did enough not to mess his team up last season. The Steelers were built before Big Ben showed up. In fact, after Maddox got hurt, everyone wrote the Steelers off. The reason Roethlisberger has looked as good as he has is because of the team around him. But still, after his accident, he's not the guy he was his rookie season. Hell, the only reason Ryan and Flacco looked so good last season was because their teams were almost complete and they were the last pieces to the puzzle. If you go back and look at the successful QBs to come out of the first couple rounds, you'll see that their teams were almost complete when they took over. Hardly ever do you see the Peyton Manning model where they built from the QB out... and even in that model, it took until Manning's 9th year in the league to get to the Super Bowl.

Like I said earlier, the "bust rate" for QBs is the second highest among all positions drafted in the top 10. I'm not excited to draft a guy who's position history shows at 63% failure rate when we have SO many positions to fill or upgrade. We can't afford to miss on the 3rd pick in the draft this season. The SAFEST pick is LT. If a LT busts, you can move him to another spot on the line. If a QB busts, you now have a glorified waterboy. Personally, I'd rather have the highest paid RT or OG in the league than the highest paid waterboy.

jap1
02-13-2009, 06:34 AM
Wow Tex, that is some nice research. It is nice to see the data on what everyone always says about OL and DL draft picks. Only question, what about LBs? That might be interesting since a lot of people want Aaron Curry. Once again, impressive.

chief31
02-13-2009, 10:35 AM
There's no way in hell the Panthers lose Peppers AND Gross.

The Chiefs have the means to fill any and all holes this off season. RDE is definitely a priority. The loss of Allen was big, but it was seemingly inevitable considering how much he wanted out and the fact that he had turned down a contract extension. I think the Chiefs got good value for him and to expect to replace him in one season was an unrealistic expectation.

The only offer The Chiefs made to Jared was the franchise offer. He did not turn down any long term offer. In fact, he didn't even turn down that offer. He didn't want to leave.

And, even if he had turned down an offer, that doesn't suggest, in the slightest, that he didn't want to be here. Who accepts the very first offer?

He had just opened his own restaraunt in KC. He had plans to stay here for a very long time.


You know the funny thing. Of all the QBs you mentioned, all were 1st rounders except for Tavaris Jackson (2nd rounder) and Frotte (7th, I think).

I'm not disagreeing with your point overall, but if you look at this year's playoffs, you have nine 1st rounders, one 2nd rounder (Tavaris again), and two undrafted guys who have been to/won a SB (Warner and Delhomme).

The era of non-elite QBs winning the SB may be behind us.

I don't see how you can see this as the end of the "non-elite" QBs.

Where was Kurt Warner drafted? Tom Brady? I think that this is the beginning of the "non-elite" QBs era.


I understand guys wanting to build the line first, but a team starts at o-line? That's crazy talk.

Disagreeing with you is far from crazy.

The Steelers just won a super bowl with a horrid offensive line. The Cardinals O-line wasn't much to speak about either.

Neither of those O-lines is horrible. Both are one-sided. The Steelers have a great run blocking line, while The Cards have a great pass protecting line. And they are both bad at the opposites.

A team starts with its QB period. It's the most important position in football. We can build our offensive line through FA and later rounds in the draft since we already have our LT.

I completely disagree with that. How many QBs have we injured since the departure of Willie Roaf? How about since Shields left?

Go ahead and bring in a QB. Then cheer for his recovery from a season ending injury.

Oh wait. We all turn on those injured QBs, don't we? (Croyle...Huard?)

We can also build our defense through FA and the draft the next 2 years. Has anyone looked at the prospects on defense for the draft next year? It's filled with studs. This year...not so much. This isn't a one year fix to try and win the Super Bowl next year. We need to to have patience, it's going to take a few years. That's why I don't have a problem developing Sanchez. He has potential to be a franchise guy that can lead us where we all wanna go.

You don't win Super Bowls with serviceable QB's anymore.

Really? What was Kurt Warner the past few years? He wasn't even servicable. He was a competent back-up. And that's all.

Granted, he didn't win. But he did enough to win. (Great game!)

And, when he did win, with The Rams, where did he come from? He was a nobody.

The only exception being Dilfer, but that Ravens D is top 3 of all time. As Chiefs fans we should know that. In the 90's we had a above average defense and arguably the best offensive line in the league.

No argument. The Cowboys had the best. No comparison.

Didn't they do pretty good in the 90's?

But never had that franchise QB and it got us nowhere and very few playoff wins. I just think the fan base is petrified of drafting a QB high for some reason.

Had we won a couple of Super Bowls in that era, then whoever we had at QB would have been considered that "franchise QB", as Eli Manning is now. And he only won one.

I have no fear of taking a QB this high. If we have the means to protect him, and he is worthy of the selection.

I haven't bothered to evaluate Sanchez, nor Stafford. Because I know that we don't have the means to protect.


Amen!!! I think we're the only 2 that agree on this.

As I've stated before, I would much rather take a Sanchez or Stafford this year than a Colt or Tebow next year... I'm not all that confident about Bradford either.

If we spend wisely on FA D players we can definitely make it happen w/ Sanchez as our #3 pick.

It also helps that we're drafting at the top of every round... If we pick Sanchez at #3 then we can look to fill in the RT position w/ our 2nd round pick and a C w/ our 3rd round pick. I think this year is pretty deep in those 2 positions.

And I don't understand why everyone has given up on B. Albert already w/ all the, "move him to RG or RT". Give him some freakin time at the LT position. IMO he was the 3rd best Rookie LT last year behind J. Long and R. Clady...

I think we can and will find a very solid RT in the 2nd Round

I have yet to see Albert play as an NFL LOT. He didn't make much of an impression on me when we were running an NFL style offense.

What I don't understand is anyone saying that we have the LOT position nailed down.

Really? Because he managed to do well in an offense that made Macintosh look good?

I am certainly not buying that.

Not that I believe he is incapable of being an NFL LOT. But that he is a top-flight OG prospect, and a decent LOT prospect.

And, since he didn't get to play in a real NFL offense, I consider him nothing more than a prospect.

I am far from against an offense that passes alot. That's fine by me.

But, you have to be able to pound it, when you need to.

The Cardinals were a fluke. They were a mediocre team, that happened to get the "W"s when it mattered most.

That's why they haven't been in the playoffs up to this season. It just so happened that the rest of their division decided to be worse than mediocre for a change. So The Cards got in by default.

I have a bad feeling about having Haley as our HC. The fact that he has never been a HC is his biggest plus, in my eyes.

I don't like The Cards' offense. It is one-dimensional.

It's the same kind of offense that accumulated the highly impressive 9-7 in '08 that got them to 5-11 in '07 and '06.

In fact, it's the same type of offense that they ran with Dennis Green. All passing, and no running.

Not to mention, with the exception of this seasons few playoff games, they have never played good defense.

Hopefully, all of that is not to be blamed on Haley. Hopefully, he has a different outlook than that, as our HC.

I will say that I definitely prefer him to Herm, or Shanahan. But I do have some serious doubts about Haley.

While surprised to see some of TCs opinions in here, I agreewhole-heartedly with alot of what he is saying.

(Nice to see you looking some things up too.) :D

There isn't a single doubt in my mind, that the five starting O-line positions combine to be far more important than the single QB position.

Very nice work, TC!

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 10:51 AM
Good analysis.

But Mike Williams and Leonard Davis were busts for the teams that drafted them (Bills and Cards). Robert Gallery is certainly not who the Raiders would pick if they had that pick to do over.

Sanme with some DTs. The Jets whiffed on the Dewayne Robertson pick, the Bengals with Wilkinson, Saints with Sullivan, the Browns were not happy with the Courtney Brown draft pick, and the Chiefs with the Ryan Sims pick.

I think you're overlooking that some players, while successful later, were busts for the team that drafted them.

I would agree that OT is by far the safest top-10 pick.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 11:21 AM
Where was Kurt Warner drafted? Tom Brady? I think that this is the beginning of the "non-elite" QBs era.

Even though they were drafted low or undrafted, that doesn't mean Brady and Warner aren't elite. They own a whole lot of NFL records and a few MVPs and SBs between them.

By non-elite, I mean that it is decenty impossible to win a SB with a non-1st rounder who isn't in the top-10 at his position. 1st round guys can do it and supremely talented later round guys can do it, but the QB position can't be left in the hands of anyone.

chief31
02-13-2009, 11:23 AM
Even though they were drafted low or undrafted, that doesn't mean Brady and Warner aren't elite. They own a whole lot of NFL records and a few MVPs and SBs between them.

By non-elite, I mean that it is decenty impossible to win a SB with a non-1st rounder who isn't in the top-10 at his position. 1st round guys can do it and supremely talented later round guys can do it, but the QB position can't be left in the hands of anyone.

I thought you might say that.

So, how about Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning?:D

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 11:40 AM
I thought you might say that.

So, how about Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning?:D

You mean the first overall pick in the draft and the 10th overall pick?!

Before he's done, I think Big Ben goes down as the 3rd best of his era (behing Brady and Peyton). His performance in the SB couldn't have been duplicated by any other QB out there - his ability to avoid sacks is unparallelled. The Cards wouldn't have won with any other QB behind that OL of the Steelers.

Eli has never been close to as bad as people said - he just was never as good as Peyton. He plays in a windy, cold weather stadium with a coach who will never go down as one of the top 100 all time. I think he's done very, very well for his situation.

chief31
02-13-2009, 11:47 AM
You mean the first overall pick in the draft and the 10th overall pick?!

Before he's done, I think Big Ben goes down as the 3rd best of his era (behing Brady and Peyton). His performance in the SB couldn't have been duplicated by any other QB out there - his ability to avoid sacks is unparallelled. The Cards wouldn't have won with any other QB behind that OL of the Steelers.

Eli has never been close to as bad as people said - he just was never as good as Peyton. He plays in a windy, cold weather stadium with a coach who will never go down as one of the top 100 all time. I think he's done very, very well for his situation.

Lol. Draft position didn't matter before.

And neither gets elite stats.

I actually think that Ben is one of the best QBs in the league. But he does not get the elite stats, and really isn't the major factor to his team that a Tom Brady, Payton Manning, or Kurt Warner are.

Either way, two of the past four Super Bowl QBs are not elite. Either because they were crap coming into the league, or because they aren't the focal point of their team.

One half or the other isn't 'elite'.

texaschief
02-14-2009, 04:23 AM
By no means am I suggesting that we should try to find the next Tom Brady late in the draft. At some point, I think the Chiefs SHOULD get a first round QB. The QBs that are taken in the first round are there for a reason. They've shown great skill sets in college and are considered the best in their class. Banking on a fluke that there might be a late round gem and that WE find him, is just pie in the sky.

If we were drafting 10th or later, I might be willing to take a Stafford or Sanchez if they fell. But NEITHER of those QBs are worth the #3 spot. Then, when you add to the equation all the holes the Chiefs still need to fill (especially on the O-line), THIS YEAR just isn't the year to take that gamble. When you draft in the top 3, it really shouldn't matter what position the player plays. As a GM, it's your responsibility not to miss and take the best player available. When a top 10 QB busts 63% of the time, that's just not a smart decision. Taking a QB #1, #3, or whatever, doesn't make him a great QB. He has to EARN being drafted in that spot. Just because they're the best QBs in their class, doesn't mean they're the best PLAYER at #3.

IMO, the reward just doesn't outweigh the risk. Stafford could be the next Elway, but history shows that he has a MUCH better chance of being an Alex Smith, Joey Harrington, or David Carr.

Not only would taking a QB be a risk, but it would be downright reckless and ABSOLUTELY the biggest gamble in the history of this franchise. I'm all for taking risk and again, agree that the Chiefs should take a first round QB at some point... just not this season.

Again, I wouldn't be against trading a conditional 1st-3rd round pick in 2010 for a young guy like Leinart.

hometeam
02-19-2009, 11:50 AM
I dont know if its really a concern to anyone in the league, but I am not sold on a left handed QB.

Probabaly becuase of the way left handed QBs play in Madden, but still, it seems unnatural to the flow of the game to me :P

kcmostwanted
02-19-2009, 12:56 PM
Stafford played like sh!t in the big games against legit opponents like Florida and Alabama AND poor opponents like Tennessee and Vandy. In those 4 games, he threw 8 INTs. His team was good enough against Tennessee and Vandy to overcome 2 INTs in those games each. His highest completion % game was against Tennessee. He went 25 of 36 in that game. Hell, Thigpen did that against NFL competition when they played the Jets where he went 25 of 36 as well. Just based on accuracy alone, I'd rather stick with Thigpen who's proven that he can complete passes against NFL talent as he finished the year with a 56.8% comp% INCLUDING the Oakland AND Atlanta games. Stafford finished the year with a 61.1 comp% against an uncharacteristically weak schedule in the SEC this season.

Those numbers just don't make me want to go out and thank God for Stafford falling to us at #3 if that were to happen. Especially if I'm going to have to drop a huge salary on a player who's ten year history shows there's only a 36% chance of him being successful anyway.



I agree that taking a QB is a gamble but what isn't when it comes to the NFL draft??? Also, one fact you didn't mention is that Tyler played in the spread last year, which he should have better stats. I like Tyler and he has lots of tools to be an NFL QB but you have to question the mental aspect of his game.
When a QB stands in the Shotgun he can scan the field and read the D even before the ball is snapped, which makes it easier.. I just want to know if Tyler will ever be able to make reads as he's doing a 3 or 5 step drop because the spread was just a bandage and probably won't be around for very long in KC.

I just have the feeling that everyone wants to hold off the QB draft pick so that we can land Bradford next year...Which I think is very ignorant because that means well really suck(I honestly question all spread QB coming out of college.. Bradford included).
Everyone had their doubts about many ProBowl QB you mentioned as well.
There are always question marks regarding any player that comes out and makes the transition to pro. The scouts once said that Robert Gallery would be a pro bowl tackle, and would anchor the Oakland Line for the next 10 years, but that didn't work out too well either...on the flip side there's Joe Thomas who has been a stud since the first snap... Flops will come and go, I just hope KC doesn't grab one ....whether they're drafting QB, OL, DL, or LB w/ their #3 pick.

warcrychief
02-21-2009, 02:38 AM
Pioli will draft a QB in the first round IMO

AussieChiefsFan
02-21-2009, 03:19 AM
Pioli will draft a QB in the first round IMOi hope he dosen't! I want a DE, DT or LB (a good LB is Aaron Curry. We should draft him!)

pbatrucker
02-21-2009, 08:42 AM
Great reply. We definatly need an OT and I believe one of the two top centers will be available in the second round. That would allow our current center to right guard were he probally belongs and our OL would be pretty solid.
Our DL might not be as bad as we think. I can't recallour DL line running any stunts at all last year. It seems to me that they would tie up one on one with the OL therfore not utilizing there quickness and causing confusion so that our blitzers have an opurtuntiy to get to the QB. Yes we still need a pass rusher, I'm just saying that our players were not utilized correctly.

warcrychief
02-21-2009, 06:37 PM
Great reply. We definatly need an OT and I believe one of the two top centers will be available in the second round. That would allow our current center to right guard were he probally belongs and our OL would be pretty solid.
Our DL might not be as bad as we think. I can't recallour DL line running any stunts at all last year. It seems to me that they would tie up one on one with the OL therfore not utilizing there quickness and causing confusion so that our blitzers have an opurtuntiy to get to the QB. Yes we still need a pass rusher, I'm just saying that our players were not utilized correctly.

I agree with you on how our D-line was miss used. When you just rush 4 line men and they have 5 linemen blocking everytime, your not going to have a good rush. That defense last year looking nothing like Gunther would have ran. So im saying that Herm had the last word as to what the team ran on D. He hardly ever blitzed and the LB we always backpeddling. Thats why we gave up so much on the run D. You look at all of the end of the games where we were ahead. And you will see alot of guys were in the right area, but were never attacking. I hate the Cover 2.

pbatrucker
02-23-2009, 09:22 AM
From what limited information I have from the combine I believe these are at the top of our list at #3.
Curry and monroe did well in the drills and were exceptional in the interviews. Both grade well on film and should be model citizens in our community.
Jason Smith did well in the drills and was tops in the bench press.

dale6734
02-23-2009, 02:48 PM
what about Brian Cushing

pbatrucker
02-23-2009, 04:00 PM
Cushing looks really good. there is some question about drug use. All the teams are waiting until the combine drug tests are back to prevent any mistakes with drafting him.

texaschief
02-24-2009, 10:51 PM
I watched a lot of the combine. I KNOW this is going to get ripped apart, but the player that impressed me the most was Pat White. It seems that he's being written off as a QB, but the guy was more accurate than Sanchez and had a CANNON when he threw the deep ball. All this guy does is everything that's expected of him. Just because he's a great athlete with a lot of flash, doesn't mean he can't be a good QB. This kid could be a steal in the 3rd.

Coach
02-24-2009, 11:12 PM
I watched a lot of the combine. I KNOW this is going to get ripped apart, but the player that impressed me the most was Pat White. It seems that he's being written off as a QB, but the guy was more accurate than Sanchez and had a CANNON when he threw the deep ball. All this guy does is everything that's expected of him. Just because he's a great athlete with a lot of flash, doesn't mean he can't be a good QB. This kid could be a steal in the 3rd.

I agree. He provides depth at lots of positions including QB. If this team plans to incorporate the wildcat plays like it did last year and also runs a spread offense occasionally, this guy could shine in a BIG way.

texaschief
02-24-2009, 11:20 PM
I agree. He provides depth at lots of positions including QB. If this team plans to incorporate the wildcat plays like it did last year and also runs a spread offense occasionally, this guy could shine in a BIG way.

ESPECIALLY with Gailey stickin around to call plays. He developed a system for Kordell Stewart to shine and I think Pat White is a MUCH better player than he.

yashi
02-25-2009, 10:25 AM
Pat White has been the best QB through the senior bowl and combine. Who cares about size? Drew Brees is 6' and he's the best in the league.

I'd love to have White, no earlier than in the 3rd though. We need to address our offensive line and defensive front 7. I think he'll go in the 2nd, unfortunately.

*drools at the possibility of using him in Madden*

pbatrucker
02-25-2009, 11:28 AM
With Paoli and Haley in place, $40 million in cap space and our draft. It'sagood time to be a Chiefs fan.:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :undwech: :undwech:

Codac
02-25-2009, 08:31 PM
With Paoli and Haley in place, $40 million in cap space and our draft. It'sagood time to be a Chiefs fan.:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :undwech: :undwech:

$50 Million now actually.

texaschief
02-25-2009, 08:55 PM
Of that 50 million, the Chiefs HAVE to spend 33 of it to comply with league rules of spending at least 88% of the salary cap. Could be a fun off season. Too bad all the good FAs are gone. lol

Codac
02-26-2009, 03:32 PM
Of that 50 million, the Chiefs HAVE to spend 33 of it to comply with league rules of spending at least 88% of the salary cap. Could be a fun off season. Too bad all the good FAs are gone. lol

Yea. The Franchise Tag should be thrust out of the league. It messes everything up. If we ever have a player to use it on it might be of use though lol. Yea we will end up signing like 5 no names at the end of the Free Agency. Just like I knew they would the whole time. All these people talking about Peppers and Lewis and what not. Silly people think it works like a video game.

warcrychief
02-26-2009, 05:26 PM
$50 Million now actually.

sounds like a setup to draft a QB :bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
02-26-2009, 05:57 PM
sounds like a setup to draft a QB :bananen_smilies046:
No, it's just clearing out dead weight. Why would we keep Surtain, Edwards, Huard, or Merritt?

The Chiefs aren't drafting a QB at 3.

Codac
02-27-2009, 03:56 PM
No, it's just clearing out dead weight. Why would we keep Surtain, Edwards, Huard, or Merritt?

The Chiefs aren't drafting a QB at 3.

Agreed. Everyone seriously needs to quit thinking QB at 3. Not happening. Surtain, Edwards, and Huard were old and ineffective as of recently. I don't even need to say anthing about Merritt.

warcrychief
02-27-2009, 08:42 PM
Agreed. Everyone seriously needs to quit thinking QB at 3. Not happening. Surtain, Edwards, and Huard were old and ineffective as of recently. I don't even need to say anthing about Merritt.

and you know this...How? 57 under the cap and 88% of it needs to be used up. with all the top flight FA signing up. Where is all that cap money going to be used?

Bike
02-27-2009, 08:46 PM
and you know this...How? 47 in cap and 88% of it needs to be used up. with all the top flight FA signing up. Where is all that cap money going to be used?
Not exactly sure, But it sure is a nice problem to have..:bananen_smilies046:

warcrychief
02-27-2009, 08:50 PM
:bananen_smilies046:
Not exactly sure, But it sure is a nice problem to have.

sry 57 under the cap. A QB at 3 would solve alot of the cap problems. :bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
02-27-2009, 08:56 PM
and you know this...How? 57 under the cap and 88% of it needs to be used up. with all the top flight FA signing up. Where is all that cap money going to be used?

We're going to sign Ray Lewis to a one year, $30,000,000 deal.

Bike
02-27-2009, 09:00 PM
:bananen_smilies046:

sry 57 under the cap. A QB at 3 would solve alot of the cap problems. :bananen_smilies046:
That it would. But I don't see us doing it. After watching game tape, I bet Haley sees what a lot of us have seen.
That Thig is a QB that can be worked with and developed into an outstanding player.
Hell I don't know what he's thinking. I don't think anyone does...

Bike
02-27-2009, 09:04 PM
We're going to sign Ray Lewis to a one year, $30,000,000 deal.
Sounds reasonable. But will he get towels with his name on them? Could be the dealbreaker...

KristofLaw
02-27-2009, 11:12 PM
With our cap situation ALOT of money needs to be spread around... there are still viable free-agents... but I think the majority is going to our YOUNG roster..
or else through another trade..

Peppers would be nice..

Chiefster
02-27-2009, 11:42 PM
We're going to sign Ray Lewis to a one year, $30,000,000 deal.

:lol:

It will be stated in his contract that he will only play against teams that will agree not to double team him.

KristofLaw
02-28-2009, 12:02 AM
Regardless, we have 50 MILLION

Should I say it again 50 MILION

I do have another thread on the economic situation


we have thatt >>> 50) MILLION

DT14PRIEST
02-28-2009, 01:13 AM
Regardless, we have 50 MILLION

Should I say it again 50 MILION

I do have another thread on the economic situation

we have thatt >>> 50) MILLION

Just wait until the second wave of Free Agency starts and you'll see a lot of names come to KC I bet. Maybe not house names but solid football players.

Dont forget we have to sign our draft picks as well.

KristofLaw
02-28-2009, 03:11 AM
Just wait until the second wave of Free Agency starts and you'll see a lot of names come to KC I bet. Maybe not house names but solid football players.

Dont forget we have to sign our draft picks as well.

Whatever...
actualually 50 million

hermhater
02-28-2009, 03:58 AM
Regardless, we have 50 MILLION

Should I say it again 50 MILION

I do have another thread on the economic situation


we have thatt >>> 50) MILLION

Let's see how we spend it.

HokieChief 09
03-01-2009, 09:28 PM
How about some hardware on this O-Line, please...If waters goes, then one can only assume we go OT with our first pick? i dunno

jap1
03-01-2009, 11:08 PM
Ive been thinking and I dont think our LB corps is nearly as horrible as we think it may be, even with a change to a 3-4.

Right now it would seem like DJ (ILB) and Vrabel (OLB) are locks for starting positions.

On our roster we have Demorrio Williams, Pat Thomas, and Rocky Boiman as people who have at one time held a starting spot. We also have Jason Babin who started at 3-4 OLB (and seemed to have decent stats) since his rookie season with Houston. Some people think that Hali can make the transition to OLB (I personally disagree).

After looking at the guys we have, I think we are only one guy away from a pretty solid LB corps. We need an OLB and an ILB. Jason Babin and Hali may be able to cover one of the OLB spots. Babin has experience at that spot in a 3-4. Hali has the skills to rush the QB. All the other guys (Williams, Thomas, Boiman) seemed to show enough skills to be good as backups and in rotation (and on special teams). Plus I think there Pioli knows how to plug in decent at best LBs to make a good LB corps (see Junior Seau ... who really should change his name to Senior ... and Tedy "Stroke" Bruschi).

The key to a good 3-4 (or any defense, whether it is Tampa 2, 4-3, regular cover 2, etc) is a good, strong DL. Right now we dont have the personnel that has proven they can be good and strong in a 3-4.

I think Dorsey is best suited at DE. He compares well in size to Chris Canty (except height) and in college his skills were at getting upfield. I think some combo of Tank, Boone, and Edwards can hold down the other DE spot. I think NT is our biggest weakness. The biggest guy on our roster (according to the roster listed on KCChiefs.com) is Ron Edwards at 315. That is about 15lbs too light for a dominant NT.

There arent any great NT available in FA.

This convinces me that we will probably not go after Curry. DL is a bigger need on defense. Also, with a new expensive QB, most GMs will want to protect them. It is either going to be BJ Raji or the best OL (Monroe or J. Smith). That is, if we dont trade down. I think Pioli will go OL to protect the investment in Cassel.

If we go OL in round 1, then I would hope that Ron Brace or Chris Baker are available when we pick in the 3rd round. Baker is really athletic, and Brace is one of the strongest DL this year.

Ron Brace, BC
Height: 6-3. Weight: 330.
Projected 40 Time: 5.25.
Combine 40 Time: 5.47.
Benchx225: 32.

Chris Baker, Hampton
Height: 6-2. Weight: 326.
Projected 40 Time: 5.03.
Combine 40 Time: 5.02.
Benchx225: 24. Vertical: 35.5.

SDChief09
03-02-2009, 03:56 AM
I thought we didnt offer babin a contract? He signed a one year deal last season.

Personally I am glad, I really am one of the few who did not feel he was very good....Made a few plays, was also liable for giving up a lot of big plays.

pbatrucker
03-02-2009, 01:06 PM
I agree with most of what you're saying BUT.
Tank was a highly regarded NT coming out of college at 330 lbs. He'll put the weight back on and be a beast in the middle.
Dorsey, with his quickness could be a very good DE.
WE still need LB help MIke Peterson and Angelo Crowell are still on the board.
For the other DE, an interesting prospect in the draft is Jarron Gilbert of SA Jose. He had a good workout at the combine and he's a youtube star. I would give the link, but I'm still learning. Go to youtube.com, go to sports and search for Jarron Gilbert. He would probally be there in the #3rd round
OT Khalif Barnes is available( had issues with Jags, I don't recall what they were.
Jake Grove is available and could be a good pickup.

jap1
03-02-2009, 06:36 PM
I agree with most of what you're saying BUT.
Tank was a highly regarded NT coming out of college at 330 lbs. He'll put the weight back on and be a beast in the middle.
Dorsey, with his quickness could be a very good DE.
WE still need LB help MIke Peterson and Angelo Crowell are still on the board.
For the other DE, an interesting prospect in the draft is Jarron Gilbert of SA Jose. He had a good workout at the combine and he's a youtube star. I would give the link, but I'm still learning. Go to youtube.com, go to sports and search for Jarron Gilbert. He would probally be there in the #3rd round
OT Khalif Barnes is available( had issues with Jags, I don't recall what they were.
Jake Grove is available and could be a good pickup.

I have heard that about Tank from a few people, which was something I did not realize. My concern is that it is tough to put on 30 lbs in 5 months (by august when preseason starts) and stay in good shape endurance-wise. That gives me some hope though.

I agree about Dorsey. Im kinda anxious to see what he can do.

I agree that there are definitely a lot of good prospects for the DL in the draft. Im only concerned that we will only be able to get one DL guy and one OL guy on the first day. Hopefully we can trade down with someone who desperately wants Sanchez or Stafford and pick up at least another 2nd rounder.

SDChief09
03-09-2009, 05:13 PM
I question if he needs to even put on the full 30....he did 10 more reps in the press than Raji, his strength probably makes up for 10-15 pounds..

Coach
03-09-2009, 06:24 PM
Chris Baker, Hampton
Height: 6-2. Weight: 326.
Projected 40 Time: 5.03.
Combine 40 Time: 5.02.
Benchx225: 24. Vertical: 35.5.

Is that right? 35.5" vertical for a 326 lb man. That is frightening.


For the other DE, an interesting prospect in the draft is Jarron Gilbert of SA Jose. He had a good workout at the combine and he's a youtube star. I would give the link, but I'm still learning.
If you have ever tried to jump in a pool, you understand the SICK amount of strength that it takes to do something like the video below. I am more amazed everytime I watch it. The second video is a scouting video that is very impressive as well.
YouTube - Jarron Gilbert jumps out of pool

YouTube - Jarron Gilbert jumps out of pool

SDChief09
03-11-2009, 02:18 PM
Here is my win now scenario with Pace as posted in the pace thread.

Qb Cassel
RB LJ/Charles(3rd down back, speed guy)
WR Bowe/Bradley/Franklin
TE Gonzo/Cottam
LT Pace /LG Waters/ C Eric Wood(3rd round) /RG Niswanger or Herb Taylor/ RT Albert

DE's Dorsey/Turk
NT Tank
LB's Curry(3rd overall) DJ/Vrabel/Hali
CB's.: Flowers/Carr /Leggett and Daniels 3 and 4
S: Pollard/Page backups Morgan/Mcgraw
K Barth
P Colquitt
KR Kevin Robinson/Jamaal Charles
PR Kevin Robinson

AussieChiefsFan
03-12-2009, 04:03 AM
Pretty nice choice there. I'd go with that too. Charles deserves to get a good go too.

texaschief
03-12-2009, 04:16 AM
I think we're going to see more of a hybrid 3-4/4-3 anyway and we're not going to see a straight 3-4. Assuming we stay at #3, I'd be happy with either a LT or Curry. I've posted before that I would rather have the LT and think that pick would be the safest investment for the future of this franchise. But, there is a VERY distinct possibility that we could take Curry to anchor the defense for the next decade or so.

So, with that said, I wanted to look at this defense with the addition of Curry. Suddenly, with the additions of Vrabel and Curry to the LB corp, the defense has a surprisingly solid middle and secondary. You've got to think that the CB spots are rock solid with the play of Flowers, Carr and Leggett last season and now with the addition of Daniels to provide depth. Pollard has the SS spot locked down. From what I've seen thus far, Page has not been extended and that leaves Morgan or McGraw at FS if we don't draft or sign anyone else from this point.

Drafting THE BEST defensive prospect in back to back drafts will go a long way to helping this defense get back on its feet. Even with Curry's addition, that leaves at least 3 spots left to fill on the defensive side of the ball; FS, LB, RDE. This is where I think Jason Taylor would fill a HUGE hole for this team... at least for a year or two, until the Chiefs can draft/sign his replacement. He wouldn't factor into the "youth movement," but the addition of Vrabel suggests Pioli is looking for leadership for his young defense and Jason Taylor would only add to the leadership on that side of the ball. Other options for that DE spot could be Turk or a mid-round draft pick.

I just don't buy into the whole "Dorsey can't play NT" argument. He's a little undersized compared to some of the better NTs in the league, but it's not a drastic drop-off and its not like the guy can't gain a few lbs. Every discussion, quote or article I've seen about how Dorsey will relate to the 3-4, seems to have people talking about how he'll have "no problem" playing NT. There's ZERO discussion out there about him moving out to DE. The only place I've seen that even being mentioned is on THIS site. Tank and Dorsey will be fine at NT.

If you see the Chiefs sign/draft a LB or FS in the next few weeks, we COULD be completing our defense.

I see our defense like this:

FS- Morgan (I realize he's listed as a SS... but I've seen him play and he can play both S spots)
SS- Pollard
CB- Flowers, Carr
OLB- Johnson, ?
ILB- Vrabel, Curry
NT- Dorsey, Tank
DE- Hali, ?

At this point, (3/12) I'd like to sign Jason Taylor (DE) and Ray Lewis (ILB) to fill those two spots. I realize this could just be a pipe dream, but the Patriots are looking at Jason Taylor for their defense. If we're going to run the "same" kind of defense, he should work here as well. Ray Lewis, Mike Vrabel, Aaron Curry, and Derrick Johnson turns the worst LB corp in the NFL into one of the best in one off season. PLUS, we have the cap room and he's the best available option to upgrade the position.

tornadospotter
03-12-2009, 04:55 AM
I belive that Ray Lewis is of the FA market, please correct me if I am wrong.

jap1
03-12-2009, 05:03 AM
I think we're going to see more of a hybrid 3-4/4-3 anyway and we're not going to see a straight 3-4. Assuming we stay at #3, I'd be happy with either a LT or Curry. I've posted before that I would rather have the LT and think that pick would be the safest investment for the future of this franchise. But, there is a VERY distinct possibility that we could take Curry to anchor the defense for the next decade or so.

So, with that said, I wanted to look at this defense with the addition of Curry. Suddenly, with the additions of Vrabel and Curry to the LB corp, the defense has a surprisingly solid middle and secondary. You've got to think that the CB spots are rock solid with the play of Flowers, Carr and Leggett last season and now with the addition of Daniels to provide depth. Pollard has the SS spot locked down. From what I've seen thus far, Page has not been extended and that leaves Morgan or McGraw at FS if we don't draft or sign anyone else from this point.

Drafting THE BEST defensive prospect in back to back drafts will go a long way to helping this defense get back on its feet. Even with Curry's addition, that leaves at least 3 spots left to fill on the defensive side of the ball; FS, LB, RDE. This is where I think Jason Taylor would fill a HUGE hole for this team... at least for a year or two, until the Chiefs can draft/sign his replacement. He wouldn't factor into the "youth movement," but the addition of Vrabel suggests Pioli is looking for leadership for his young defense and Jason Taylor would only add to the leadership on that side of the ball. Other options for that DE spot could be Turk or a mid-round draft pick.

I just don't buy into the whole "Dorsey can't play NT" argument. He's a little undersized compared to some of the better NTs in the league, but it's not a drastic drop-off and its not like the guy can't gain a few lbs. Every discussion, quote or article I've seen about how Dorsey will relate to the 3-4, seems to have people talking about how he'll have "no problem" playing NT. There's ZERO discussion out there about him moving out to DE. The only place I've seen that even being mentioned is on THIS site. Tank and Dorsey will be fine at NT.

If you see the Chiefs sign/draft a LB or FS in the next few weeks, we COULD be completing our defense.

I see our defense like this:

FS- Morgan (I realize he's listed as a SS... but I've seen him play and he can play both S spots)
SS- Pollard
CB- Flowers, Carr
OLB- Johnson, ?
ILB- Vrabel, Curry
NT- Dorsey, Tank
DE- Hali, ?

At this point, (3/12) I'd like to sign Jason Taylor (DE) and Ray Lewis (ILB) to fill those two spots. I realize this could just be a pipe dream, but the Patriots are looking at Jason Taylor for their defense. If we're going to run the "same" kind of defense, he should work here as well. Ray Lewis, Mike Vrabel, Aaron Curry, and Derrick Johnson turns the worst LB corp in the NFL into one of the best in one off season. PLUS, we have the cap room and he's the best available option to upgrade the position.

My concern with Dorsey at NT is that he is not known for his strength. He was drafted for his ability to get upfield. Most 3-4 NTs are praised for their ability to eat up space and drive the OL back. Also, as far as the weight, he already put on #s last year to play DT and that made him a little slow and fatigued. Im concerned if he adds more weight it will slow his development.

As far as Ray Lewis, he was signed last week by the Ravens.

tornadospotter
03-12-2009, 05:13 AM
I believe that Ray Lewis is of the FA market, please correct me if I am wrong.
typo I meant off


My concern with Dorsey at NT is that he is not known for his strength. He was drafted for his ability to get upfield. Most 3-4 NTs are praised for their ability to eat up space and drive the OL back. Also, as far as the weight, he already put on #s last year to play DT and that made him a little slow and fatigued. Im concerned if he adds more weight it will slow his development.

As far as Ray Lewis, he was signed last week by the Ravens.
I thought so.

texaschief
03-12-2009, 05:50 AM
I've been workin my *** off this week. I didn't realize he was gone too. that blows.

Dorsey is going to be just fine. The Chiefs wouldn't even be thinking about switching if their #1 pick last year was just going to be thrown away and not able to contribute. That's an EXTREMELY inefficient utilization of resources and I think Pioli is a little smarter than that.

But, I could be wrong. He might be an idiot.

Coach
03-12-2009, 02:46 PM
I've been workin my *** off this week. I didn't realize he was gone too. that blows.

Dorsey is going to be just fine. The Chiefs wouldn't even be thinking about switching if their #1 pick last year was just going to be thrown away and not able to contribute. That's an EXTREMELY inefficient utilization of resources and I think Pioli is a little smarter than that.

But, I could be wrong. He might be an idiot.

The knock on Dorsey at NT is that he is too short(he is) and that he is too light(by 20 lbs.). We'll see what they elect to do.

I have heard mention on NFL radio that Atlanta could be interested in his services. If they offered their 1st round pick(24), I think the Chiefs would have to take a long look at it if the Chiefs are planning to transition to a 3-4.

They would be able to get a NT like Ron Brace with that pick.

brish
03-12-2009, 04:16 PM
I have heard mention on NFL radio that Atlanta could be interested in his services. If they offered their 1st round pick(24), I think the Chiefs would have to take a long look at it if the Chiefs are planning to transition to a 3-4.

They would be able to get a NT like Ron Brace with that pick.

Now thats interresting.. But it will be really expensive to sign 2 first round picks, but i guess we can afford it right? :)

Chief Tyler
03-13-2009, 05:00 PM
The knock on Dorsey at NT is that he is too short(he is) and that he is too light(by 20 lbs.). We'll see what they elect to do.

I have heard mention on NFL radio that Atlanta could be interested in his services. If they offered their 1st round pick(24), I think the Chiefs would have to take a long look at it if the Chiefs are planning to transition to a 3-4.

They would be able to get a NT like Ron Brace with that pick.

Could go Raji and a LB at 24, seeing as LB's seem to be a bit more top heavy in the early rounds this year. Maualuga might still be there at 24 since the combine incident.

theaxeeffect4311
03-15-2009, 02:18 PM
I've been workin my *** off this week. I didn't realize he was gone too. that blows.

Dorsey is going to be just fine. The Chiefs wouldn't even be thinking about switching if their #1 pick last year was just going to be thrown away and not able to contribute. That's an EXTREMELY inefficient utilization of resources and I think Pioli is a little smarter than that.

But, I could be wrong. He might be an idiot.

Thank you Tex. I've been saying the same thing. He may not be great at first, but Dorsey is a great player. He will do what he has to to improve the team. He's a team player. He's not too short (at 6'1", he's the same size as Casey Hampton) and he may not be strong enough, but I saw last season what Darnell Dockett did at NT when Arizona went into the 3-4. Dockett is 6'4", 285 lbs. And during the Super Bowl, he was always in the backfield. Maybe a team can use an explosive NT instead of a space eater, and make a 3-4 work just as well if you can make the necessary changes to gap control. They will find a way for Dorsey to work.

I think the funny part is that when Dorsey came out of college, everyone was praising him for his ability to play in any defensive scheme. I guess we'll see if they were right.

theaxeeffect4311
03-15-2009, 02:20 PM
Could go Raji and a LB at 24, seeing as LB's seem to be a bit more top heavy in the early rounds this year. Maualuga might still be there at 24 since the combine incident.

Raji would be a reach at 3. Why take a reach prospect over what the scouts and analysts call the safest pick in the draft in Aaron Curry.

jmlamerson
03-18-2009, 01:18 PM
Raji would be a reach at 3. Why take a reach prospect over what the scouts and analysts call the safest pick in the draft in Aaron Curry.

On every mock I've seen, Raji is projected to either 4 (Seattle) or 6 (Cincinatti). I don't think he's a reach at 3.

DT14PRIEST
03-18-2009, 07:31 PM
On every mock I've seen, Raji is projected to either 4 (Seattle) or 6 (Cincinatti). I don't think he's a reach at 3.

I can see the reason behind taking him at 3 if the Chiefs were employing 34 full time. But until there is an annoucement, an official annoucement, from the front office that we are going 34 full time I think Raji is something you can pass on if the Chiefs are going to do a Pendergast 43/34 mix.

I still believe Tank Tyler can convert to be an effective 34 NT.

TrueArrows
03-20-2009, 03:25 AM
Rome wasn't built in a year and neither was the roster of the Superbowl Cardinals.

I guess after going through the years under Herm, were all very im-patient as Chief fans. I for one am happy with the moves made so far. We have two QBs that have great potiental. Thats two more then all the years under Herm. This team has some great players. With Bowe,Tony,Larry, and Derrick, this team can be a playoff contender in two years.

Herm stalled this team for years but this organization is making more moves now then all the years under Herm.

Ironicaly, Dennis Greene brought in a lot of the players that the Cardinals used in the Superbowl. I just wonder if the samething won't happen here. A lot of times players don't respond or jell under a coach like Greene or maybe a Herm. Time will tell how many sharp arrows Herm brought in.

Codac
03-20-2009, 04:04 PM
Its funny to look at that roster eval. that started this thread and how different it is now because of what has happened.

theaxeeffect4311
03-23-2009, 01:11 AM
On every mock I've seen, Raji is projected to either 4 (Seattle) or 6 (Cincinatti). I don't think he's a reach at 3.

But would you say that Raji is better than Curry, Crabtree, or Monroe/Smith (whichever one will be available)?

Chief Tyler
03-23-2009, 08:29 AM
But would you say that Raji is better than Curry, Crabtree, or Monroe/Smith (whichever one will be available)?

Thats comparing apples and oranges. Right now Raji is the top DT in the draft, Crabtree, Curry, and Monroe/Smith are top in their respective positions. You draft need, and if we were to end up with a second first rounder (I think the talk was trading away Dorsey) then I felt it might be viable to grab Raji and a LB later as DT's come at more of a premium this year (and tackles with speed, size and skill at a premium every year).

jmlamerson
03-23-2009, 12:47 PM
But would you say that Raji is better than Curry, Crabtree, or Monroe/Smith (whichever one will be available)?

I think that Raji will fill a need on our team (NT) that we cannot get either through free agency, the rest of the draft (probably), or through a trade. Also, Pioli almost always go DL with a high pick. He went with Mayo last year because his DL was already stacked with Seymour, Wilfork, and Warren, and a good reserve in Green.

I think a LB like Curry, who isn't a pass rush threat, isn't worth the third pick. I can't think of a top-5 LB who was any good since DT, and he could rush the passer.

I think Crabtree has bust written all over him, given his poor combine showing and his health issues. Not to mention that picking a WR in the top-5 rarely works, and it isn't good to tie up so much cap in your WR corps.

And I think Jason Smith goes 1 and Monroe goes 2. KFFL is already reporting that Smith is going 1, and there's no way the Rams don't go LT at 2.

I do not think this is a hard choice. Either pick Raji or trade down (if someone wants to trade up for Curry).

I wouldn't object if we got Curry - he'll be a good player - but LB is a position that can be filled in the later rounds much, much easier than NT or LT.

jmlamerson
03-23-2009, 12:52 PM
Thats comparing apples and oranges. Right now Raji is the top DT in the draft, Crabtree, Curry, and Monroe/Smith are top in their respective positions. You draft need, and if we were to end up with a second first rounder (I think the talk was trading away Dorsey) then I felt it might be viable to grab Raji and a LB later as DT's come at more of a premium this year (and tackles with speed, size and skill at a premium every year).

Very true what you wrote EXCEPT that there's no way we can trade Dorsey. It would be a $20M cap hit. Dorsey will be a Chief for the next couple years because we can't afford that much dead cap space.

I think it's a whole lot more likely that we trade Waters before the draft for a 2nd rounder, and use that pick on a LB.

eatnsleepchiefs
03-25-2009, 12:41 PM
OK, here is my first thoughts of many more to come throughout the year.

Lets talk about the depth chart a bit:
Now that we know the Chiefs did go out and get Cassel, and they picked up a veteran LB in Vrabel. They also got a worthy number 2 receiver in Bobby Engram. Also grabbing Terrance Copper and bringing home Monti Beisel, also getting Mays, a decent LB.
With that being said, the Chiefs are heading in the right direction. But here are some questions that I have for you guys.
1. What about Tyler Thigpen? Did everyone forget about what he did last year? Did people forget he was a third string QB and he played pretty damm good. Heck, even TG said he wanted Thigpen back at the helm next year!
2. I don't know about everyone else, but I have my doubts about Cassel. Does anyone else have the same fears? He did play well with the Pats last year, but keep in mind he had no pressure, and he was comfortable with the team. Does anyone else think like I do? That being that there will be a QB controversy.
3. Finally. Will we have a darn defense this year? I love the development of Pollard, and I also think that Dorsey will be very sucessful with the change to the defensive set. Also, bringing in Vrabel will turn the front seven around dramatically. We defiantly will be drafting a defensive player, either Orakpo or Curry and they will start immediatly.
Not to be bias here at all, but I think the Chiefs are going to have a turn around season this year. Remember what the Dolphins did last year? Going from winning one game to winning their division? Well guys and gals, they hired a new GM, Head Coach and got a free agent QB and had a top draft pick. Im tired of watching the games every week and being up going into the fourth quarter and praying the defense doesn't blow it. my prayers were never answered! I have one last question.
ARE THERE ANY CHIEFS FANS IN VA BEACH OR NORFOLK VIRGINIA? IF SO EMAIL ME AT smithjoel084@yahoo.com. I need someone to celebrate with when the Chiefs win their division or even win three games!!!! Remember folks. "You got two options, get over it or get used to it"

Chief Tyler
03-25-2009, 01:32 PM
1. Nobody forgot about Tyler. Haley said there is going to be some competition for the job (doubt it, but it shows he wants TT around).

2. Same doubts as we have about TT really. Relatively unknown outside of the teams at the start of the season, thrown into the fire (if thats not pressure I don't know what is). I don't think there is going to be a controvery, I'd think Tyler would almost expect another guy to come in to challenge, if not, take the job from him. Cassel had the advantage of playing with one of the best quarterbacks of recent years, plus the management feels he is full of the intangible attributes that TT has yet to learn (or so it seems).
3. Who knows. I doubt we take Orakpo at number 3. It comes down to Curry, Raji or OT, but we have a good DB corps. We could go Curry and get ran on for another year. Raji seems to make sense too. He's a prototype for NT in a 3-4 and could do well playing side by side with Dorsey in a 4-3. He eats space, Dorsey hopefully gets coached into shooting gaps like he should and maybe we get some good play from Hali again with a big, physical presence on the line again (he could even be the hybrid that Orakpo would be and play OLB as well). I do think we need to fix the lines first. Good lines make the rest of the team look good and don't have us questioning every move of the DB, LB and ball handling positions.

With how tough our schedule is next year I'd be happy with 8-8 or better. Depending on how we draft I'd either expect a solid pass defense and a weak run defense again or middle of the road in each and a slightly above average offense depending on how LJ reacts (and if we keep him) and how the line shapes up in the next few weeks, including the draft.

Bike
03-25-2009, 07:33 PM
i agree about Thig. If Thig was in Cassels shoes last year, theres no doubt in my mind he would/could have put up comparable numbers. Just speculating of course. Thats why I was somewhat disappointed when we traded away our 34th pick to get him. But when you throw in Vrabel - and no additional compensation to the Pats, I loosened up on the deal somewhat. Our D needs leadership, and Vrabel can be that guy.
I also love the fact that Pioli is beefing up our special teams. The signing of Mays helps there. The way I see it, the better our special teams are, the better our backup players are.
We need some big strong mean linemen. I am now officially off the Curry bandwagon and hope we pick up Ragi with our 1st pick.

texaschief
03-26-2009, 03:02 AM
ok. here's MY question. Yes we have Thigpen, but he hasn't proven to be a winning QB and he ran the spread last year. Yes, we have Cassel. But, he TOO ran the spread last season and is only signed for ONE season.

If Stafford falls to #3, wouldn't he present the GREATEST value at #3 if the two best LT's are off the board at that point?

It seems like the Chiefs could take Stafford and flip Cassel to the Vikings for their 1st or 2nd/3rd. I know Pioli likes Cassel and all, but I think this would be a great trade for the Chiefs. We would have our franchise QB AND the ability to take a OLB/DE or MLB later in the first.

I still think taking a QB at #3 is an enormous risk and probably shouldn't be done, but if the two best LT's are off the board, Stafford HAS to represent the best value for the pick. LIke I've said before, no non-rushing LB is worth the #3 pick. So, take him away, and who else would be worth that pick? Raji? eh. I just think we could get some GREAT picks for Cassel and probably the best value at #3 is we took this route.

AussieChiefsFan
04-03-2009, 03:10 AM
ok. here's MY question. Yes we have Thigpen, but he hasn't proven to be a winning QB and he ran the spread last year. Yes, we have Cassel. But, he TOO ran the spread last season and is only signed for ONE season.

If Stafford falls to #3, wouldn't he present the GREATEST value at #3 if the two best LT's are off the board at that point?

It seems like the Chiefs could take Stafford and flip Cassel to the Vikings for their 1st or 2nd/3rd. I know Pioli likes Cassel and all, but I think this would be a great trade for the Chiefs. We would have our franchise QB AND the ability to take a OLB/DE or MLB later in the first.

I still think taking a QB at #3 is an enormous risk and probably shouldn't be done, but if the two best LT's are off the board, Stafford HAS to represent the best value for the pick. LIke I've said before, no non-rushing LB is worth the #3 pick. So, take him away, and who else would be worth that pick? Raji? eh. I just think we could get some GREAT picks for Cassel and probably the best value at #3 is we took this route.He did IMO

yashi
04-03-2009, 11:11 AM
He did IMO
he only won 1 game, and his production fell off in the 2nd half of most games. I like Thigpen, and he had a very good statistical season (aside from his completion %), but Cassel is the guy for the foreseeable future. I'm glad that there is some insurance at the QB position now, however.

Bike
04-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Thig was able to put up some impressive numbers considering what he had to work with:
Inept coaching.
Inept ol.
Inept defense.
It is to his credit that he was able to even win 1 game...

Chief Tyler
04-05-2009, 01:55 PM
Get WR in FA *plexico,harrison,*toomer maybe one of the stared chargers have a C up for grabs FA I do not know if he's good though

We don't need another aging WR, and we sure as hell don't need the murderer Harrison or suicidal Buress, and I don't think Toomer would have much to offer this team. We have 2 possession receivers in Gonzo and Engram, our bruiser in Bowe and a big play guy in Bradley. We could use a future 10x probowler deep threat and maybe a young slot guy, but we're not getting either in washed up FA.

okikcfan
04-05-2009, 02:36 PM
ok. here's MY question. Yes we have Thigpen, but he hasn't proven to be a winning QB and he ran the spread last year. Yes, we have Cassel. But, he TOO ran the spread last season and is only signed for ONE season.

If Stafford falls to #3, wouldn't he present the GREATEST value at #3 if the two best LT's are off the board at that point?

It seems like the Chiefs could take Stafford and flip Cassel to the Vikings for their 1st or 2nd/3rd. I know Pioli likes Cassel and all, but I think this would be a great trade for the Chiefs. We would have our franchise QB AND the ability to take a OLB/DE or MLB later in the first.

I still think taking a QB at #3 is an enormous risk and probably shouldn't be done, but if the two best LT's are off the board, Stafford HAS to represent the best value for the pick. LIke I've said before, no non-rushing LB is worth the #3 pick. So, take him away, and who else would be worth that pick? Raji? eh. I just think we could get some GREAT picks for Cassel and probably the best value at #3 is we took this route.


IMO I think any QB in this years draft is a big risk, none of them were really Great. Cassell has a 1 year contract to make it or break it and I do wish him well!

AussieChiefsFan
04-06-2009, 03:26 AM
IMO I think any QB in this years draft is a big risk, none of them were really Great. Cassell has a 1 year contract to make it or break it and I do wish him well!
Yeah, I hope he can become the chiefs starter Qb for a long time!:bananen_smilies046:

jamesald
04-12-2009, 05:53 PM
With the switch to the 3-4 defense, the defensive line needs an overhaul. Dorsey, Mcbride, Tyler, and Hali don't seem to fit. None of the defensive tackles are capable of playing end or nose tackle in the 3-4. Hali might not be big enough to play end, but I know he wouldn't be able to make the transition to play LB. The offense is looking very promising if they address right tackle, center, and overall depth of the line.

Regardless of LJ's situation, I think the chiefs need to draft a RB, but not until the 3rd or 4th round. WR and TE are solid if Gonzalez stays and I truly believe Cassel is going to be a good QB because Haley's scheme was very similar to New England's.

texaschief
04-14-2009, 06:42 AM
With the switch to the 3-4 defense, the defensive line needs an overhaul. Dorsey, Mcbride, Tyler, and Hali don't seem to fit. None of the defensive tackles are capable of playing end or nose tackle in the 3-4. Hali might not be big enough to play end, but I know he wouldn't be able to make the transition to play LB. The offense is looking very promising if they address right tackle, center, and overall depth of the line.

Regardless of LJ's situation, I think the chiefs need to draft a RB, but not until the 3rd or 4th round. WR and TE are solid if Gonzalez stays and I truly believe Cassel is going to be a good QB because Haley's scheme was very similar to New England's.

Tank Tyler played NT in college. He lost weight to make the transition to a 3 technique. He was the strongest player in his class and could EASILY make the transition back to NT.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/4/13/833957/rumors-tank-tyler-as-the-chiefs-3

"Over the past couple of weeks I've heard from more than a few people that the Kansas City Chiefs are likely to pencil in Tank Tyler as the starting nose tackle over the center in their 3-4 defense. Nothing has been confirmed at this point (and likely won't be until the preseason starts) but after a bit more research on DeMarcus "Tank" Tyler, it's becoming increasingly obvious that this would be a good move for the Chiefs.

Tyler played the nose tackle at North Carolina State alongside an all star list of college teammates drafted in 2006 - Mario Williams (#1 overall), Manny Lawson (22nd overall) and John McCargo (26th overall) - and not surprisingly he excelled around those teammates (including two others drafted in 2006).

What's even more impressive is that Tyler actually improved after those players left for the NFL. He performed well with that talent around him and improved when that talent left.

With the talent around him - 41 tackles (4.5 for loss), 2 sacks
Without the talent around him - 49 tackles (8.5 for loss), 3 sacks
Tyler was actually around 323 pounds his senior year at NC State but dropped weight leading up to the Senior Bowl to showcase his agility and quickness. Prior to the draft, he said several 3-4 teams were showing interest in him.

He said he felt comfortable playing in either a 3-4 or a 4-3 front, and believed he could excel either at the nose or in the three-technique spot. Itís telling, however, that he said he "likes" to play nose tackle; many players favor the potentially more glamorous three-technique spot and its emphasis on speed and backfield penetration. Clearly, Tyler understands that many teams see the value in an immense and immensely strong man clogging up the running lanes and occupying multiple blockers in the trenches.

Assuming Tyler is capable of packing the pounds back on to put him at the weight that allowed him to be the strongest player at the NFL Combine in 2007, it's becoming clear why rumors are flying that he's going to be the Chiefs starting nose tackle when and if they unveil their new 3-4 defense in September.

I want to stress that these are just unsubstantiated rumors at this point but Tank Tyler is an intriguing candidate to be the muscle behind the Chiefs defensive line in 2009."

Turk was a tweener in the 4-3. Tweeners make decent to good DE's in the 3-4. I think Hali may benefit from the transition as well.

The only person I'm worried about is Dorsey. I wonder what we could get from the Falcons if we traded them TG AND Dorsey. I've heard it would be a big cap hit, but I don't think that's true. There are already rumors out there that the Chiefs could be shopping Dorsey because he doesn't fit.

"Dorsey, Waters could be Trade Bait...The Kansas City Chiefs could use Defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey and Guard Brian Waters as trade bait in the weeks leading up to the draft, or on draft day itself. Dorsey, the Chiefs first-round pick in 2008, isn't an ideal fit for the Cheifs new 3-4 scheme, and Waters is seeking a trade out of Kansas City. The Chiefs have just one pick within the top 66 picks in the draft, which isn't enough for Scott Pioli and his rebuilding plans for the team. The Chiefs will know by draft day if Dorsey is in their plans, since the Chiefs have a voluntary minicamp scheduled for April 17-19, which is just days before the Draft." -Al Fronczak


I'd take their first (24), second (55), and ILB Curtis Lofton. Lofton was a 2nd round pick last year and it would essentially give us our 3rd, 2nd round pick of the season. Some may say that's a little steep for the Falcons, but there's no way they would've been able to trade a first and second rounder for Dorsey last April, sitting where they are now. The 24th pick and Lofton seems more than fair the 5th pick in the draft last season. I might even ask for a 4th or 5th as a throw-in for TG.

At #3, I'd draft Sanchez if the Lions take Stafford. This would buy me more time to trade him/Cassel (whichever is deemed least) to the highest bidder (Denver). I'll take their 12th and 18th picks for Sanchez, thank you.

At #12, I'll take CB Malcom Jenkins
At #18, I'll take ILB Rey Maualuga
At #24, I'll take DE Tyson Jackson
At #55, I'll take OL Duke Robinson
At #67, I'll take RB LeSean McCoy
At #102, I'll take C Antoine Caldwell
At #139, I'll take DT Roy Miller
At #175, I'll take CB/KR Joe Burnett

LT Branden Albert
LG Brian Waters/Duke Robinson
C Antoine Caldwell/Mike Goff
RG Mike Goff/Duke Robinson
RT Herb Taylor
TE Brad Cottam
WR Dwayne Bowe
WR Bobby Engram
WR Mark Bradley
QB Matt Cassel
RB Larry Johnson
RB Jamaal Charles


NT Tank Tyler
DE Tyson Jackson
DE Tamba Hali
ILB Rey Maualuga
ILB Curtis Lofton
OLB Derrick Johnson
OLB Mike Vrabel
CB Malcom Jenkins
CB Brandon Flowers
FS DaJuan Morgan
SS Bernard Pollard



Have fun with it.

jmlamerson
04-14-2009, 11:43 AM
The only person I'm worried about is Dorsey. I wonder what we could get from the Falcons if we traded them TG AND Dorsey. I've heard it would be a big cap hit, but I don't think that's true

It is true. We take a $20M cap hit if we trade/cut Dorsey. We're not trading/cutting Dorsey.

yashi
04-14-2009, 12:09 PM
<-- Huge Post -->


I guess I disagree on many levels here, but fun to read regardless.

I'm probably in the minority, but I deal Tony G to Atlanta for the #55.

If Tank can play at 323 lbs, then I'd be happy to give him a shot at the NT position. But I still draft one regardless, as insurance.

I cut LJ.

Draft
1.) Aaron Curry
2.) Duke Robinson
3.) Rashad Jennings
4.) Sammie Lee Hill
5.) T.J. Lang
6.) Ra'shon Harris
7.) Backup
7.) Backup

DE - Dorsey
NT - Tank/Hill
DE - Harris
OLB - Curry
ILB - Johnson
ILB - Thomas
OLB - Vrabel
CB - Flowers
CB - Carr
FS - Morgan
SS - Pollard

QB - Cassel
RB - Jennings/Charles
FB - Cox
WR - Bowe
WR - Engram
TE - Cottam
LT - Albert
LG - Waters
C - Goff
RG - Robinson
RT - Lang

jmlamerson
04-14-2009, 02:14 PM
I guess I disagree on many levels here, but fun to read regardless.

I'm probably in the minority, but I deal Tony G to Atlanta for the #55.

If Tank can play at 323 lbs, then I'd be happy to give him a shot at the NT position. But I still draft one regardless, as insurance.

I cut LJ.

Draft
1.) Aaron Curry
2.) Duke Robinson
3.) Rashad Jennings
4.) Sammie Lee Hill
5.) T.J. Lang
6.) Ra'shon Harris
7.) Backup
7.) Backup

DE - Dorsey
NT - Tank/Hill
DE - Harris
OLB - Curry
ILB - Johnson
ILB - Thomas
OLB - Vrabel
CB - Flowers
CB - Carr
FS - Morgan
SS - Pollard

QB - Cassel
RB - Jennings/Charles
FB - Cox
WR - Bowe
WR - Engram
TE - Cottam
LT - Albert
LG - Waters
C - Goff
RG - Robinson
RT - Lang

What the hell, my fantasy draft:

Trade Tony for the 55th pick (I love him, but it's time).

Trade down from the 3rd pick to the 10th (49ers snatch Sanchez ahead of the Seahawks) and pick up the 43rd pick (SF's 2nd) and the 146th (SF's 5th).

Draft
1) Tyson Jackson (DE)
2a) Duke Robinson (RG)
2b) Phil Loadholt (RT)
3) Chris Baker (NT)
4) Derek Pegues (FS)
5a) Worrell Williams (ILB)
5b) Jonathan Casillas (OLB)
6) Nader Abdallah (DE)
7) BPA
7) BPA

DE - Glenn Dorsey
NT - Chris Baker (rookie)
DE - Tyson Jackson (rookie)
OLB - DJ
OLB - Mike Vrabel
ILB - Worrell Williams (rookie)
ILB - Zach Thomas
OLB - Vrabel
CB - Flowers
CB - Carr
FS - Derek Pegues (rookie)
SS - Pollard

QB - Cassel
RB - LJ - no use cutting him
FB - Cox
1WR - Bowe
2WR - Engram
3WR - Bradley
TE - Cottam
LT - Albert
LG - Robinson (rookie)
C - Goff
RG - Waters - move him to provide experience on the right side
RT - Loadholt (rookie)

EDIT: Just counted. Amazingly, that's twelve new starters over 2008.

pbatrucker
04-14-2009, 02:39 PM
Tyson Jackson comes with a lot of bagage. If you're going to draft a DE that early it has to be Robert Ayers.
Antoine Calweld will be a great pick for us.
If Loadholt is ever going to be a starter in the NFL it will be 2 to 3 years down the road.
If we have to draft a NT, I'd rather wait until next year and pick up Cody from Alabama, he's 365 and makes Rahji look like a *****cat.
:11:

jmlamerson
04-14-2009, 02:42 PM
Tyson Jackson comes with a lot of bagage. If you're going to draft a DE that early it has to be Robert Ayers.
Antoine Calweld will be a great pick for us.
If Loadholt is ever going to be a starter in the NFL it will be 2 to 3 years down the road.
If we have to draft a NT, I'd rather wait until next year and pick up Cody from Alabama, he's 365 and makes Rahji look like a *****cat.
:11:

What baggage?

Chief Tyler
04-15-2009, 02:56 AM
What baggage?

I found a little "baggage" on Jackson, straight from his scouting report:

Character: Jackson is well-liked by his teammates and coaching staff, and was considered one of the team's prime locker room leaders. He commands respect on the field for his ability and is the type of player you never have to worry about getting into trouble. He is involved in community affairs and has been responsible and respectful. GRADE: 6.2

Tyson Jackson, LSU, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com Football (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155)

Oh, and Ayers was arrested for aggravated assault in 2005.

Jackson has more of an ideal build for 3-4 end too, he's projected to be more of a run stopper than a sack threat though, I think he's worth of our first round pick though, if we get a middle of the pack pick. He could be on the board well into the late teens too, get a couple more picks from that if possible.

jmlamerson
04-15-2009, 11:34 AM
I found a little "baggage" on Jackson, straight from his scouting report:

Character: Jackson is well-liked by his teammates and coaching staff, and was considered one of the team's prime locker room leaders. He commands respect on the field for his ability and is the type of player you never have to worry about getting into trouble. He is involved in community affairs and has been responsible and respectful. GRADE: 6.2

Tyson Jackson, LSU, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com Football (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155)

Oh, and Ayers was arrested for aggravated assault in 2005.

Jackson has more of an ideal build for 3-4 end too, he's projected to be more of a run stopper than a sack threat though, I think he's worth of our first round pick though, if we get a middle of the pack pick. He could be on the board well into the late teens too, get a couple more picks from that if possible.

Yeah, I'll just assume pbatrucker confused him with Ayers.

Jackson is a DE in the Richard Seymour build. Big, mean, and just a prototypical 3-4 DE. He won't get a ton of sacks, but 3-4 DEs aren't meant to.

Jackson's my favorite DE in this draft, and we badly need a 3-4 DE. If we can trade down to a double digit pick and he's on the board, we'd be nuts not to take him.

As much as I love Maualuga, the Zach Thomas signing makes him more of a luxury than a guy like Jackson, at least for 2009.

yashi
04-15-2009, 11:43 AM
Yeah, I'll just assume pbatrucker confused him with Ayers.

Jackson is a DE in the Richard Seymour build. Big, mean, and just a prototypical 3-4 DE. He won't get a ton of sacks, but 3-4 DEs aren't meant to.

Jackson's my favorite DE in this draft, and we badly need a 3-4 DE. If we can trade down to a double digit pick and he's on the board, we'd be nuts not to take him.

As much as I love Maualuga, the Zach Thomas signing makes him more of a luxury than a guy like Jackson, at least for 2009.

LSU Chiefs!

It would be interesting to see Dorsey and Jackson back on the same line again. After all, Dorsey was incredible when they were a tandem. And without him so far, well... you know.

pbatrucker
04-15-2009, 11:47 AM
I found a little "baggage" on Jackson, straight from his scouting report:

Character: Jackson is well-liked by his teammates and coaching staff, and was considered one of the team's prime locker room leaders. He commands respect on the field for his ability and is the type of player you never have to worry about getting into trouble. He is involved in community affairs and has been responsible and respectful. GRADE: 6.2

Tyson Jackson, LSU, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com Football (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155)

Oh, and Ayers was arrested for aggravated assault in 2005.

Jackson has more of an ideal build for 3-4 end too, he's projected to be more of a run stopper than a sack threat though, I think he's worth of our first round pick though, if we get a middle of the pack pick. He could be on the board well into the late teens too, get a couple more picks from that if possible.
Sorry , I did get the two mixed up, it's my age you know. I've been going over this stuff so much, everything is etting a little mixed up. I apolagise again.
:11:

jmlamerson
04-15-2009, 11:52 AM
Sorry , I did get the two mixed up, it's my age you know. I've been going over this stuff so much, everything is etting a little mixed up. I apolagise again.
:11:

No apologies necessary. These things happen to the best of us - meaning me.

Chief Tyler
04-15-2009, 11:58 AM
Yeah, I'll just assume pbatrucker confused him with Ayers.

Jackson is a DE in the Richard Seymour build. Big, mean, and just a prototypical 3-4 DE. He won't get a ton of sacks, but 3-4 DEs aren't meant to.

Jackson's my favorite DE in this draft, and we badly need a 3-4 DE. If we can trade down to a double digit pick and he's on the board, we'd be nuts not to take him.

As much as I love Maualuga, the Zach Thomas signing makes him more of a luxury than a guy like Jackson, at least for 2009.

The faster we develop the line the better also, Thomas hopefully holds us over to next year where there is another deep LB class, have a DE with some experience already and pick up a high LB next year to fill in one of the vet spots and play right away. Then again, you have Carlos Dunlap who will probably be coming out in '10, he's essentially Mario Williams, the only kicker is he is from Florida, but I hope we don't have a bad enough record to be in consideration for him next year, assuming he is a top 5 prospect a year from now.

Imagine if we pulled a miracle and ended up with 2 mid first rounders though. I don't think Raji is going to get past GB if he falls that far, but if the stars line up, Raji and Jackson would set our line for the next decade.

texaschief
09-28-2009, 01:59 AM
This was a fun thread to read.

After watching this team for three weeks, I'm gonna play armchair QB. We know now that this team is transitioning to the 3-4. We also knew that Gailey's offense was good enough to at least score some points last season. So, what I want to do, is go back and build my O-line and my young defense. That's it. I want to do a couple things REALLY well instead of trying to EVERYTHING at a below average level. SO, my 2009 off season re-do:

Draft:
1-Aaron Curry LB
2-Eben Britton OT
3-Alex Magee DE
4-Jonathan Luigs C
5-Duke Robinson OG

(All players were available when we selected.)

FA
Mike Goff
Mike Brown
Terrance Copper
Cory Mays

(I'm not going to pretend that we could sign a bunch of super studs. I'm just staying with the guys we brought in... minus a couple.)

Starting Offense
QB-Croyle/Thigpen (stop gap till new O-line is complete)
RB-Johnson/Charles
FB-Cox
WR-Bowe, Bradley
LT-Albert
LG-Waters
C-Luigs
RG-Goff
RT-Britton
TE-Cottam

Defense
CB-Flowers, Carr
SS-Pollard/Brown
FS-Page
ROLB-Hali
LILB-Johnson
RILB-Mays
LOLB-Curry
NT-Tank
LDE-Dorsey
RDE-Magee

Put last year's offense behind a semi-rebuilt O-line and just concentrate all your effort on improving the horrid defense we had last season. That's all that HAD to be done this season. After the defense was on better footing following the season, then we could've gone after our offense and tried to improve on it some during next spring.

Instead, management decided to tear down BOTH sides of the ball and ignore the most glaring need during the off season (OL). Now, we have a "franchise QB" with no protection. THIS is EXACTLY why we shouldn't have gone after a QB this past spring. (Still love the value we received with that trade though.) I just think bringing in a QB this season wasn't necessary. The fact that Brodie is playing at a comparable level to Cassel only makes that fact more exacerbated. Makes you wonder what Croyle would look like with a line that could protect him.

Anyway, I just bumped this thread cuz it was a fun read when we were trying to figure out what the hell was gonna happen and what we all wanted to happen while comparing it to reality.