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View Full Version : Why is everyone writing Dorsey off ?



bigpoppachief
02-11-2009, 02:47 PM
I dont understand why people are writing Dorsey and Tank out Tank is a strong beast and showed great improvement last year and Dorsey was a rookie who was used to dominating and had to hit a brick wall BUT if the cheifs can get someone to rush on the outside i can promise you that Tank and Dorsey will begin to show why Dorsey was a first rounder and talked as the best player in last years draft. I have always believed in Tank and I also think McBride will become a decent player. Dont get me wrong I am not saying that any of these players are going to become legends BUT i do think that these three can be decent players they just need a BEAST on the outside to rush. Just my opinion but don't give up on these kids yet.

Bike
02-11-2009, 02:59 PM
I myself am not writing Dorsey off. Dorsey was a rookie, poorly coached, poorly used, and had zero talent around him. I forsee a vast improvement in him this year...

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 03:03 PM
I dont understand why people are writing Dorsey and Tank out Tank is a strong beast and showed great improvement last year and Dorsey was a rookie who was used to dominating and had to hit a brick wall BUT if the cheifs can get someone to rush on the outside i can promise you that Tank and Dorsey will begin to show why Dorsey was a first rounder and talked as the best player in last years draft. I have always believed in Tank and I also think McBride will become a decent player. Dont get me wrong I am not saying that any of these players are going to become legends BUT i do think that these three can be decent players they just need a BEAST on the outside to rush. Just my opinion but don't give up on these kids yet.

I understand not writing them off. But what I'm having difficult believing is that people think that Tank, Turk, and Dorsey had a good year last year. Or a decent year last year. Or an adequate year.

Or anything but "one of the worst year's a DL had ever had" years.

Tank looked awful all year. So did Dorsey. And I can't believe anyone's trying to defend Turk (who'll be gone before August I bet). They were one-on-one with guards and got blown off the line every down. They couldn't stop the run or rush the passer. They were awful.

Do you believe that they'll get better with a new DC and some conditioning? Fine, I can accept and respect that.

I can't accept or respect that people are praising their work last year. Teams ran over us at will when they had a lead, and they threw on us at will when they fell behind. Our terrible run defense and pass rush was the main reason for this.

Dorsey had the skills to rush on smaller college OLs. He hasn't shown the skills to rush larger NFL OLs yet. Tank hasn't shown anything but how to move backward. Turk's shown less than that.

I won't call Tank or Dorsey busts, so long no one else calls them successes.

Turk is a massive bust.

HokieChief 09
02-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Dorsey came into a bad situation last year...give him some time. With the right coaching, I think he has the potential to be one of the best in the league.

Codac
02-11-2009, 03:45 PM
I understand not writing them off. But what I'm having difficult believing is that people think that Tank, Turk, and Dorsey had a good year last year. Or a decent year last year. Or an adequate year.

Or anything but "one of the worst year's a DL had ever had" years.

Tank looked awful all year. So did Dorsey. And I can't believe anyone's trying to defend Turk (who'll be gone before August I bet). They were one-on-one with guards and got blown off the line every down. They couldn't stop the run or rush the passer. They were awful.

Do you believe that they'll get better with a new DC and some conditioning? Fine, I can accept and respect that.

I can't accept or respect that people are praising their work last year. Teams ran over us at will when they had a lead, and they threw on us at will when they fell behind. Our terrible run defense and pass rush was the main reason for this.

Dorsey had the skills to rush on smaller college OLs. He hasn't shown the skills to rush larger NFL OLs yet. Tank hasn't shown anything but how to move backward. Turk's shown less than that.

I won't call Tank or Dorsey busts, so long no one else calls them successes.

Turk is a massive bust.

Wow. You seriously need to just stop talking about the D-Line. You have no idea what your talking about.

Tank had a great season. Its not all about the numbers your reading on Yahoo. He played well. He is has shown lots of upside. He is a keeper for years to come.

Turk is questionable. He will probably be released. He showed flashes of what he needed to be in the preseason. But in the season he couldn't deliver. I like him but he is probably gone.

As for Dorsey. He is a rookie DT. What the heck do you want from him? He didn't play as well as Tank, but this season was very valuable for him as well as Tank. He isn't the kind of DT who is gonna be making a lot of sacks either.

Yes the Line got killed all year. Its the line as a whole. Not Dorsey and Tank. Not to mention we were running Cover 2. Its not a pass rush oriented defense. Its to defend the pass. Which we did ok at. With a new D-Scheme we will be fine.

You just need to relax.

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 04:00 PM
Not to mention we were running Cover 2. Its not a pass rush oriented defense.

No. The whole point of the Cover 2 defense is that your DL gets pressure on the QB without LB help. Its not a blitz oriented defense, but it is a pressure oriented defense. Which rarely works, of course, because the correct personnel are hard to find.


Wow. You seriously need to just stop talking about the D-Line. You have no idea what your talking about.

You sure about that? I mean, I do know how the Cover 2 defense runs and you apparently don't.


Tank had a great season. Its not all about the numbers your reading on Yahoo. He played well. He is has shown lots of upside. He is a keeper for years to come.

Turk is questionable. He will probably be released. He showed flashes of what he needed to be in the preseason. But in the season he couldn't deliver. I like him but he is probably gone.

As for Dorsey. He is a rookie DT. What the heck do you want from him? He didn't play as well as Tank, but this season was very valuable for him as well as Tank. He isn't the kind of DT who is gonna be making a lot of sacks either.

I, amazingly, wasn't reading Tank's stats on Yahoo. The fact that he was blown off the line most downs was what I based my comments on. Did you miss pretty much every defensive running play, where he and Dorsey went backwards? You sure you know what you're talking about?

Dorsey was drafted to be a sack-creating DT. He's faster and undersized compared to the average DT and was drafted to be Herm's Warren Sapp. If he's not going to get a lot of sacks, exactly what will he be doing? Because he's definitely not a run-stuffing sort of DT. You sure you know what you're talking about?

I don't fault Dorsey or Tank for not getting more sacks. I do fault them for being an absolute sieve against the run. If they improve, no one will be happier than me. But they need to improve a lot before anyone starts calling them "adequate" or anything.

KottkeKU
02-11-2009, 05:05 PM
it really just comes down to coaching....we have drafted DE's and DL-man very high in the last 6 or 7 years (Junior Siavii, Eddie Freeman, Sims, from the Vermeil era and Dorsey, McBride, Hali, Tyler...and im probly missing a few....all in the top 3 rounds in the last 6 or so years...)

none of which are very good or even on the roster....is it not obvious? Dont hate the player, hate the COACHES....we have consistently had a pourous defense after the neil smith and dt era....

Dorsey will be fine now that we will have a new defensive scheme....he is still very young....Hali and Tank i believe can be a part of the defense...but Turk just does not belong here and we need to cut our losses and give his spot to someone else...IF IF IF IF IF

we can get someone to coach them how to play defense

yashi
02-11-2009, 05:19 PM
Not to mention we were running Cover 2. Its not a pass rush oriented defense.
No offense, but this is completely wrong.

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/02/12.jpg

See the problem with a Cover 2? The play needs to be over by the time a receiver has time to get to a soft zone. The only way to ensure it's over is to get pressure on the QB.

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/02/13.jpg

Conversely, in a Tampa 2 scheme the MLB is in a semi-deep zone between the safeties. Same sort of problem, you really don't want to have your MLB having to cover someone very often on a deep route down the middle. A fast MLB like Derrick Johnson helps, but no LB is fast enough to shadow a WR very long.

warcrychief
02-11-2009, 05:54 PM
Warren Sapp wasnt even Sapp until his second year. His rookie year he had 3 sacks. His second year he had 9.

These guys need time to develop. They are going up against seasoned vets. Even Albert Haynsworth had to work up to his status. When was the last time that you heard of an awesom DT rookie? i havent.

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 06:31 PM
Warren Sapp wasnt even Sapp until his second year. His rookie year he had 3 sacks. His second year he had 9.

These guys need time to develop. They are going up against seasoned vets. Even Albert Haynsworth had to work up to his status. When was the last time that you heard of an awesom DT rookie? i havent.

Very true about a DT needing time to develop. My point wasn't ever whether Dorsey or Tank will do well 2009+. My point was that they did lousy in 2008. That we're going to need improvement at the DT spot before we ever can boast a decent DL.

I can't believe that's a controversial position.

yashi
02-11-2009, 06:54 PM
I don't fault Dorsey or Tank for not getting more sacks. I do fault them for being an absolute sieve against the run.
This is where I have strong feelings that coaching is to blame. Dorsey was consistently told to "read and react". Like you said, he's not a run stuffer. He needs to be making quick moves off the line to get into the gaps. His advantage over a G is his quickness, so if he can't use it then he's basically useless.

Same thing against the run, basically. If he's heads up with a G every play, he's going to get pushed backwards. If he's able to jump through the gap, he can get some tackles for a loss.

honda522
02-11-2009, 07:38 PM
Well, I was just pissed at the fact that it looked like Dorsey might be another Ryan Sims. Looking back, I have seen you can't base your thoughts when you have Herm and Gunther in command.

Bike
02-11-2009, 08:01 PM
The entire front 7 needs to be re-evaluated.
This defense was the laughing stock of the league.
Turk, Thomas, Boone, Edwards need to go now.
Hali and Dorsey need to vastly improve this year or go.
DJ should be getting more than 2 sacks a year by now.
Babin and Boiman?
Its really hard to argue the fact that we fielded the leagues 31st ranked defense. Nobodys job should be safe.

Sn@keIze
02-11-2009, 08:05 PM
This is why I hope to friggin god we go to a 3-4(or even 2-5 or a 2-4 like what the Steelers do). With all the different schemes you can do on which LB (or DB) you want do rush, Dorsey will have a hayday.

Dorsey isnt an earthmover type of guy like Haynesworth or Jenkins. Some say hes not even over 6'. But he can move fast and is agressive.

Tank to me is good, but a backup. He takes up space and does not get pushed back.

And McBride as far as Im concerned is our best DT as of now. I dont know why anybody would want him gone. Our Hole LB core is dissappointing as far as im concerned. Even Johnson isnt impressing me.

All in all, Im not sure if Haynes or a Jenkins could do anything with the blain vanilla D Hermaroid ran..but then again (even tho it was DE) Allen tore it up here.

Sn@keIze
02-11-2009, 08:10 PM
The entire front 7 needs to be re-evaluated.
This defense was the laughing stock of the league.
Turk, Thomas, Boone, Edwards need to go now.
Hali and Dorsey need to vastly improve this year or go.
DJ should be getting more than 2 sacks a year by now.
Babin and Boiman?
Its really hard to argue the fact that we fielded the leagues 31st ranked defense. Nobodys job should be safe. I agree with with everything cept Turk.

And I think Babin can really contribute next year.

I wouldnt be surprise if Hali lost his starting pos. to Babin.

Pro_Angler
02-11-2009, 08:24 PM
I personally dont have any worries about dorsey untill his third year is done. if he hasnt got it by then, then he wont. tank will be fine as well IMO.

stevo1020
02-11-2009, 08:33 PM
I don't see why we don't use DJ in the same format we used DT. He is lightning quick and could cause some havoc off the edge. That would shore up some of the woes on d-line and then pick up some quality LB's this offseason.

Chiefster
02-11-2009, 08:36 PM
I agree that much of our defensive ineffectiveness came from a substandard defensive scheme and coaching.

Sn@keIze
02-11-2009, 08:53 PM
I don't see why we don't use DJ in the same format we used DT. He is lightning quick and could cause some havoc off the edge. That would shore up some of the woes on d-line and then pick up some quality LB's this offseason.Exactly, Shotty ran the 3-4. Which is another reason why i wish wed use it.

Codac
02-11-2009, 09:17 PM
Very true about a DT needing time to develop. My point wasn't ever whether Dorsey or Tank will do well 2009+. My point was that they did lousy in 2008. That we're going to need improvement at the DT spot before we ever can boast a decent DL.

I can't believe that's a controversial position.

We don't need improvement there. We are fine at DT. DE and LB is all we need on Defense then we are fine. You want to make too many radical changes at the DT spot when the personnel we have there are fine. Maybe take Ziggy Hood in the later rounds to finish it up but its not as big a deal as your making it sound.

hometeam
02-11-2009, 09:31 PM
I didnt read all the way through this thread..
but I for one am not writing Dorsey off, we definatly have to give him a chance to develop a little bit. Hell under our Hermfense I cant believe anyone could gain confidence and develop

Sn@keIze
02-11-2009, 09:33 PM
We don't need improvement there. We are fine at DT. DE and LB is all we need on Defense then we are fine. You want to make too many radical changes at the DT spot when the personnel we have there are fine. Maybe take Ziggy Hood in the later rounds to finish it up but its not as big a deal as your making it sound.Seriously?!...The worst pass rush in NFL history...

When that happens then its everybody, Coaches, LBs and DLs.

I do like our 2ndary very much.

chiefsfreak4life
02-11-2009, 10:02 PM
I personally dont have any worries about dorsey untill his third year is done. if he hasnt got it by then, then he wont. tank will be fine as well IMO.

I agree. It takes at least three years for d lineman to get it. Look at Mario Williams (#1 pick) broke loose this year (3rd year) Turk and Tank improved alot last year, I think this year will really show alot more with them and Dorsey will get better as well. Get us a real DE like Peppers or Canty and a few quality linebackers will make a hell of a difference.

texaschief
02-11-2009, 10:16 PM
wow... I'll be posting on this thread later as well.

Chiefster
02-11-2009, 10:38 PM
wow... I'll be posting on this thread later as well.


Come loaded with yer facts. :11: :D

Coach
02-11-2009, 11:00 PM
I think if the Chiefs get Peppers, it will be a miracle. There are a lot of teams that want the same players we want. Saints want Vilma and a very big way. Panthers want Jordan Gross in a big way. I think if we get 2-3 starters in free agency, it will be a huge victory for this team.

Canada
02-11-2009, 11:04 PM
Come loaded with yer facts. :11: :D

I am always loaded!! :bananen_smilies046:

hermhater
02-11-2009, 11:09 PM
Imagine if we still had Jared to help these young guys out.

Canada
02-11-2009, 11:10 PM
Imagine if we still had Jared to help these young guys out.

Too bad we don't have a dead horse we can beat too!! :iamwithstupid:

Chiefster
02-11-2009, 11:27 PM
I am always loaded!! :bananen_smilies046:

True, that is your perpetual state of being. :bananen_smilies046:

Chiefster
02-11-2009, 11:27 PM
Imagine if we still had Jared to help these young guys out.

Yup, the last of Carl's brain farts.

Canada
02-11-2009, 11:32 PM
True, that is your perpetual state of being. :bananen_smilies046:

I've got too much blood in my alcohol system!! :drunkhb:

slc chief
02-11-2009, 11:33 PM
it is real funny how peole are writing dorsey off. and the same people want to throw big bucks at haynesworth. what they do not realize is haynesworth did not do crap his first few years i think it was not untill his third year when he knew his contract was going to be up that he started playing worth a damn . that is what i heard nfl live saying anyway. give dorsey some time let him play HIS game and we will see who gets the last laugh

honda522
02-12-2009, 12:39 AM
The entire front 7 needs to be re-evaluated.
This defense was the laughing stock of the league.
Turk, Thomas, Boone, Edwards need to go now.
Hali and Dorsey need to vastly improve this year or go.
DJ should be getting more than 2 sacks a year by now.
Babin and Boiman?
Its really hard to argue the fact that we fielded the leagues 31st ranked defense. Nobodys job should be safe.

You cant scape the entire D in one offseason. Plus you can blame the why the team has been ran the past few years.
Here is who I think should stay for sure.
DJ
Demorreio Willimams
Rocky Bioman
Brandon Flowers
Brandon Carr
Maurice Leggit
Tamba Hali (Last Chance)
Dorsey
Jared Page
and Bernard Pollard. (atleast keep him as special teams)


Pat Thomas was atrioucious and needs to go.

dbolan
02-12-2009, 10:16 AM
I think Dorsey will be okay. My main concern with him upon the draft was his durability. He has proved that he can play an entire season at the pro level, so I believe he will come along better this year given the changes that are in progress.

I can't recall too many DL's that made an instant significant impact in their first year.

OPLookn
02-12-2009, 02:39 PM
I think Dorsey will be okay. My main concern with him upon the draft was his durability. He has proved that he can play an entire season at the pro level, so I believe he will come along better this year given the changes that are in progress.

I can't recall too many DL's that made an instant significant impact in their first year.


You bring up durability which lead me to think about when he got drafted. Everyone knew that he needed knee surgery and yet he didn't get it. Does anyone know if he either got that taken care of or will? People thinking Dorsey should be cut or traded because he didn't have 500 sacks in his rookie season either need to stop talking or read a book...

DT14PRIEST
02-12-2009, 03:32 PM
He's not quite a bust in my opinon at least not yet. I think people had way too high an expectation placed on him to be that huge outstanding Haynesworth-esque demanding success in his first season.

He'll be a bust if he doesn't really start to shine by the midseason point of 09 and a break out in 2010 though. So thats my deadline with him.

dbolan
02-12-2009, 03:44 PM
You bring up durability which lead me to think about when he got drafted. Everyone knew that he needed knee surgery and yet he didn't get it. Does anyone know if he either got that taken care of or will? People thinking Dorsey should be cut or traded because he didn't have 500 sacks in his rookie season either need to stop talking or read a book...

I don't know if he did or not but if it is need of repair, I would think he would have done it by now. Of course, some of these pro athletes have a tendency to do these things on a time table that either takes away the entire season or part of the season.

As far as him being a bust, I do think he could have done better but I also know it takes a little time.

Optimistically, I say at this point the knee is a non-issue and he will perform better this season.

Codac
02-12-2009, 03:59 PM
Seriously?!...The worst pass rush in NFL history...

When that happens then its everybody, Coaches, LBs and DLs.

I do like our 2ndary very much.

You said DL. I said DT. All this talk won't matter soon. We will be in the 3-4 and We will be talking about LB's soon.

Coaching definitely was a big reason why the line got burned. Once we get a RE and a better DL coach we will be fine. Quit worrying so much about the DL. LB and OL is what we need to be talking about.

Codac
02-12-2009, 04:03 PM
I agree. It takes at least three years for d lineman to get it. Look at Mario Williams (#1 pick) broke loose this year (3rd year) Turk and Tank improved alot last year, I think this year will really show alot more with them and Dorsey will get better as well. Get us a real DE like Peppers or Canty and a few quality linebackers will make a hell of a difference.

Its like every position in football in football, besides RB. You need time to mold into the new playbook and intensity from college. When everyone freaks out and makes a big deal about being ineffective their first year in, its not fair.

Sn@keIze
02-12-2009, 06:34 PM
You said DL. I said DT. All this talk won't matter soon. We will be in the 3-4 and We will be talking about LB's soon.

Coaching definitely was a big reason why the line got burned. Once we get a RE and a better DL coach we will be fine. Quit worrying so much about the DL. LB and OL is what we need to be talking about.When I said DLs I mean DTs and DEs. So I was talking bout DTs too. Shizzle to the fizzle my nizzle.:D Peace 2 the out.:D

Big Daddy Tek
02-13-2009, 03:47 AM
I dont understand why people are writing Dorsey and Tank out Tank is a strong beast and showed great improvement last year and Dorsey was a rookie who was used to dominating and had to hit a brick wall BUT if the cheifs can get someone to rush on the outside i can promise you that Tank and Dorsey will begin to show why Dorsey was a first rounder and talked as the best player in last years draft. I have always believed in Tank and I also think McBride will become a decent player. Dont get me wrong I am not saying that any of these players are going to become legends BUT i do think that these three can be decent players they just need a BEAST on the outside to rush. Just my opinion but don't give up on these kids yet.

Your pretty close to right on. Tank is gonna be a monster and Dorsey should develope nicely if they use him better and we get an outside pass rush. Haynesworth would be a waste of money. His rookie numbers were worse than Dorsey's.

warcrychief
02-13-2009, 04:42 AM
I dont think that we have the personal to change to 3-4. That Defense takes at least 3 years to master. and we are already behind as far as the draft picks are concerned. too many 4-3 players drafted these past few years.

chief31
02-13-2009, 12:03 PM
Its like every position in football in football, besides RB. You need time to mold into the new playbook and intensity from college. When everyone freaks out and makes a big deal about being ineffective their first year in, its not fair.

I agree with you, for the most part, here.

But by expressing that you think Dorsey was never viewed as a pass rush threat, and that the Cover-2 isn't a pressure-based defense, you kind of lose me.

And by saying that Tank had a good season, and that the d-line is fine, you convince me that you aren't seeing something right.

Not that I think Tank, nor Dorsey, needs to be replaced. But that their play needs some major improvement from '08.

Both were consistently, and easily, single-blocked. That really is the measurement of DTs,

And, if you didn't notice that this group shaterd the all-time low in sacks for a defense, then you can just check stats.

But, if you think that this group is not bad, as a whole, in spite of that fact, then me thinks you may be rooting against us. :D

Codac
02-13-2009, 03:26 PM
I agree with you, for the most part, here.

But by expressing that you think Dorsey was never viewed as a pass rush threat, and that the Cover-2 isn't a pressure-based defense, you kind of lose me.

And by saying that Tank had a good season, and that the d-line is fine, you convince me that you aren't seeing something right.

Not that I think Tank, nor Dorsey, needs to be replaced. But that their play needs some major improvement from '08.

Both were consistently, and easily, single-blocked. That really is the measurement of DTs,

And, if you didn't notice that this group shaterd the all-time low in sacks for a defense, then you can just check stats.

But, if you think that this group is not bad, as a whole, in spite of that fact, then me thinks you may be rooting against us. :D

The Cover 2 is a scheme that is supposed to reduce the efficiency of the passing attack. With good coverage you give the DL more time to get to the QB. I know what the Cover 2 is. But most QB's will find a way to get rid of the ball before getting touched by one of the 4-5 guys rushing. Thats where the Cover 2's real scheme comes in. Its about pressure and coverage. Not sacks.

I honestly don't think that group isn't bad as a whole. I just think they need the right coaches to really help them break out. Obviously they do need to improve. Once again thats every position at football. There is always someway you can improve your game. In some cases others just need to improve more.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 04:36 PM
The Cover 2 is a scheme that is supposed to reduce the efficiency of the passing attack. With good coverage you give the DL more time to get to the QB. I know what the Cover 2 is. But most QB's will find a way to get rid of the ball before getting touched by one of the 4-5 guys rushing. Thats where the Cover 2's real scheme comes in. Its about pressure and coverage. Not sacks.

I think people got confused because you interchanged the terms pass rush and sacks. They aren't the same thing. A Cover 2 won't generate a massive amount of sacks, but it should be able to apply a constant pass rush with its front four.


I honestly don't think that group isn't bad as a whole. I just think they need the right coaches to really help them break out. Obviously they do need to improve. Once again thats every position at football. There is always someway you can improve your game. In some cases others just need to improve more.

I agree - it's very possible everyone will improve. And as long as everyone agrees that the DL needs to improve, I don't see the problem.

You are mistaken about Dorsey, though. He is supposed to be able to use his speed to get into the backfield and sack/disrupt the QB. His speed is supposed to make up for his relatively small size. If he isn't supposed to be a Sapp/Dockett type, then I don't see what he's supposed to be.