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marloweopatchiefs
02-15-2009, 02:15 PM
defensive coordinator will change how which type of defense the chiefs run? just curious on what people think.

jmlamerson
02-15-2009, 02:37 PM
defensive coordinator will change how which type of defense the chiefs run? just curious on what people think.

He may. He may not. We can't know until that DC is hired.

My gut says we draft and sign FA defensive players this draft that can be either 3-4 or 4-3, and move to a 3-4 in 2010.

jap1
02-15-2009, 03:00 PM
He may. He may not. We can't know until that DC is hired.

My gut says we draft and sign FA defensive players this draft that can be either 3-4 or 4-3, and move to a 3-4 in 2010.

Agreed. If w hire a 3-4 DC we will probably see a slow migration to the 3-4. We will probably have a hybrid D for a year or two. It will take awhile to build the proper personnel.

Chiefster
02-15-2009, 03:22 PM
defensive coordinator will change how which type of defense the chiefs run? just curious on what people think.

Man, I sure hope so.

honda522
02-15-2009, 03:24 PM
Yes, and I hope so. That cover 2/zone crap sucks. I think the only team who is good at it is Tampa Bay.

Chiefster
02-15-2009, 03:27 PM
Yes, and I hope so. That cover 2/zone crap sucks. I think the only team who is good at it is Tampa Bay.

...Like a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

jmlamerson
02-15-2009, 03:32 PM
Yes, and I hope so. That cover 2/zone crap sucks. I think the only team who is good at it is Tampa Bay.

The Vikings and Colts run pretty decent varients of the Cover 2.

The problem with the Cover 2 is that (1) it isn't good for teams that play outdoors, on grass (speed advantage is lost and the team is undersized); (2) you need the right personnel, almost to a man, for it to have any chance of success; (3) you need a good, running, time chewing offense that can keep your speed-based defense rested.

Why the Chiefs failed at the Cover 2 is a mixture of those three reasons. Also because we never had a real MLB to help with the run after Kawika Mitchell was chased out of town.

Chiefster
02-15-2009, 03:38 PM
The Vikings and Colts run pretty decent varients of the Cover 2.

The problem with the Cover 2 is that (1) it isn't good for teams that play outdoors, on grass (speed advantage is lost and the team is undersized); (2) you need the right personnel, almost to a man, for it to have any chance of success; (3) you need a good, running, time chewing offense that can keep your speed-based defense rested.

Why the Chiefs failed at the Cover 2 is a mixture of those three reasons. Also because we never had a real MLB to help with the run after Kawika Mitchell was chased out of town.


Good post! :sign0098:

texaschief
02-15-2009, 04:11 PM
The Vikings and Colts run pretty decent varients of the Cover 2.

The problem with the Cover 2 is that (1) it isn't good for teams that play outdoors, on grass (speed advantage is lost and the team is undersized); (2) you need the right personnel, almost to a man, for it to have any chance of success; (3) you need a good, running, time chewing offense that can keep your speed-based defense rested.

Why the Chiefs failed at the Cover 2 is a mixture of those three reasons. Also because we never had a real MLB to help with the run after Kawika Mitchell was chased out of town.

So, Dorsey and Tank are bad DTs and have zero potential to turn into any but Ryan Sims, but Kawika Mitchell was a "REAL" and good MLB, huh? :lol:
You know, Kendrell Bell got a big contract too... that didn't make him a good player.

The 4-3 defense is a good defense. It puts a lot of pressure on the QB. I see everyone getting all pissed about the pass rush this season, then those same people railing for a 3-4. That's just really funny to me. We haven't acquired the personnel to run a 3-4 over the last couple seasons. If started implementing a 3-4, not only would we have to basically get rid of our entire defense, but we would have to endure another 2 or 3 seasons of awful defensive play until we could get the right personnel installed. Then, after we DO get everyone in place, we're going to hear about how horrible the pass rush will be. We won't give up any rush yards, but teams will be able to pass all over the place because in order to pressure on the QB, you're going to have to blitz at least one or two LBs, which opens the passing lanes up even more.

We have young, talented players in place to be able to run the 4-3 effectively. There are holes at LB and DE for sure. I would even like another FS and a shut down CB like Aso, but this defense is being built in one direction and suddenly changing the scheme would be a HUGE step in the wrong direction. Any DC worth a damn will build a defensive scheme around the players available to him (much like what Gailey did this past season on offense). If a DC has to step into a perfect situation to be successful, he's no better than the average Madden player. Anyone can call defensive plays. I want someone in here who can build something great with the talent available to him.

It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

jmlamerson
02-15-2009, 04:36 PM
So, Dorsey and Tank are bad DTs and have zero potential to turn into any but Ryan Sims, but Kawika Mitchell was a "REAL" and good MLB, huh?

I never said Tank and Dorsey don't have potential. But they were the worst starting DT duo in the NFL last year. Both for their ability to pressure the passer and to stop the run. Could they get better? Maybe. Are they good now? No. Do we need better DT play if we ever want a top-20 defense? Yes.

Ryan Sims turned out to be a decent reserve DT for Tampa. He'd have been the best DT on our DL this year, were he still a Chief. Dorsey and Tank are worse DTs right now than Ryan Sims. They will have to improve to be as good as him.

I understand people defending Dorsey and Tank's potential. I don't understand defending their performance. I understand you have a lot invested, after having defended Tank, Dorsey, Page, Pat Thomas, and Hali pretty vociferously as long term solutions to our defense. But you're letting your pride get in the way of accurately reviewing their performances.

I probably should have said LB, not MLB for Kawika Mitchell. In any case, he was a big physical player - the sort we have badly needed in our LB corps. Since leaving, he's only been a starting LB on a SB team and has done a whole lot better on the Bills than anyone we had this year.


You know, Kendrell Bell got a big contract too... that didn't make him a good player.

This sentence has less coherence than most of what you write. Everyone knows that Ty Law, Donnie Edwards, Kendrell Bell, etc. got big contracts and have underperformed.

Just so you know, when Jonathan Vilma gets his big contract, he'll underperform.


The 4-3 defense is a good defense. It puts a lot of pressure on the QB. I see everyone getting all pissed about the pass rush this season, then those same people railing for a 3-4. That's just really funny to me. We haven't acquired the personnel to run a 3-4 over the last couple seasons. If started implementing a 3-4, not only would we have to basically get rid of our entire defense, but we would have to endure another 2 or 3 seasons of awful defensive play until we could get the right personnel installed. Then, after we DO get everyone in place, we're going to hear about how horrible the pass rush will be. We won't give up any rush yards, but teams will be able to pass all over the place because in order to pressure on the QB, you're going to have to blitz at least one or two LBs, which opens the passing lanes up even more.

We have young, talented players in place to be able to run the 4-3 effectively. There are holes at LB and DE for sure. I would even like another FS and a shut down CB like Aso, but this defense is being built in one direction and suddenly changing the scheme would be a HUGE step in the wrong direction. Any DC worth a damn will build a defensive scheme around the players available to him (much like what Gailey did this past season on offense). If a DC has to step into a perfect situation to be successful, he's no better than the average Madden player. Anyone can call defensive plays. I want someone in here who can build something great with the talent available to him.

There are people in Detroit, Oakland, New Orleans, Cleveland, and other cities who think they have talented young defenses that were mismanaged. Not being fans of those teams, we can look at those defenses and see that they just lack talent. That as much as a Cleveland fan might want to believe it, Kalimba Edwards will never be a top DE. Right now, fans of every team in the league think their team has more defensive talent than the Chiefs. The Chiefs defense personnel is the laughingstock of the league right now.


It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

Great. Then stop whining how Vermiel left the cupboard bare.

NWA Chief
02-15-2009, 10:32 PM
[QUOTE]
I never said Tank and Dorsey don't have potential. But they were the worst starting DT duo in the NFL last year. Both for their ability to pressure the passer and to stop the run. Could they get better? Maybe. Are they good now? No. Do we need better DT play if we ever want a top-20 defense? Yes.

Ryan Sims turned out to be a decent reserve DT for Tampa. He'd have been the best DT on our DL this year, were he still a Chief. Dorsey and Tank are worse DTs right now than Ryan Sims. They will have to improve to be as good as him.

I understand people defending Dorsey and Tank's potential. I don't understand defending their performance. I understand you have a lot invested, after having defended Tank, Dorsey, Page, Pat Thomas, and Hali pretty vociferously as long term solutions to our defense. But you're letting your pride get in the way of accurately reviewing their performances.


Ok, we had several DE injuries that the media never talked about. Dorsey can't perform when he's being double teamed all the time. I like him and Hali alot, but I'm not impressed with Ron Edwards, Alphonso Boone or Turk. Tank should be alright but if you seriously think Sims is better than both of our DT's right now then you should think about that a little more. And I think Sims is not good, but better than Savaii ever was. We have had trouble finding DT's through the draft but I think Dorsey will be one to stay.

jmlamerson
02-16-2009, 12:05 AM
[quote=jmlamerson;118331]

Ok, we had several DE injuries that the media never talked about. Dorsey can't perform when he's being double teamed all the time. I like him and Hali alot, but I'm not impressed with Ron Edwards, Alphonso Boone or Turk. Tank should be alright but if you seriously think Sims is better than both of our DT's right now then you should think about that a little more. And I think Sims is not good, but better than Savaii ever was. We have had trouble finding DT's through the draft but I think Dorsey will be one to stay.

OK, the rumor that Dorsey was double teamed most downs needs to be put to bed. I watched all sixteen games of the Chiefs this season, and with the exception of the Atlanta game, Dorsey was almost never double teamed. Because Gunther was senile, he lined him up head-to-head with a guard instead of in the gap, but Dorsey was successfully blocked by only one lineman for almost the entire year.

And I understand fully your points. I'm not even disputing you that Dorsey, Hali, or Tank's a keeper. I'm not agreeing with you either - time will tell.

All I've been saying is that we need much better production from the DT position if our defense is ever to be considered "adequate." Does anyone really disagree with that?

Codac
02-16-2009, 01:11 PM
[quote=NWA Chief;118365]

OK, the rumor that Dorsey was double teamed most downs needs to be put to bed. I watched all sixteen games of the Chiefs this season, and with the exception of the Atlanta game, Dorsey was almost never double teamed. Because Gunther was senile, he lined him up head-to-head with a guard instead of in the gap, but Dorsey was successfully blocked by only one lineman for almost the entire year.

And I understand fully your points. I'm not even disputing you that Dorsey, Hali, or Tank's a keeper. I'm not agreeing with you either - time will tell.

All I've been saying is that we need much better production from the DT position if our defense is ever to be considered "adequate." Does anyone really disagree with that?

I agree perfectly. We do need better production. And we are going to get it from those two guys next year. With better coaching and being more confident and better situated in the pros, Tank and Dorsey will step up their game.

Your not very patient with letting players develop are you?

jmlamerson
02-16-2009, 01:41 PM
[quote=jmlamerson;118386]

I agree perfectly. We do need better production. And we are going to get it from those two guys next year. With better coaching and being more confident and better situated in the pros, Tank and Dorsey will step up their game.

Your not very patient with letting players develop are you?

There's a big difference in letting players develop and needing players to develop.

Right now, if we stick with only Tank and Dorsey, we need them to improve into decent DTs or our defense is shot in 2009. Teams shouldn't get themselves into this position, that either their young players have to magically perform like vets or the team fails. This was Herm's strategy, and it's why he was a miserable coach.

It isn't a shock to me that Tank and Dorsey didn't perform well last year. It wouldn't shock me if they performed badly for the next few until they acclimated to the game. That's what most DTs do. That's why teams rarely rely on two 1st contract DTs as their starters! Its why "youth movements" always fail - any why defenses like the Eagles, Steelers, and Ravens are always on top. They know that you need a mix of vets and young guys to succeed.

I'm doubly worried about Tank and Dorsey because they're undersized. Although our pass rush was miserable, everyone is forgetting that our biggest problem is that we don't have a good presence in the middle to stop the run. Unless we can do that next year, we're going to have another losing season.

Signing a good BIG veteran DT and keeping up a good rotation will do a whole lot more for Dorsey and Tank's growth than getting them blown off the line for the next two to three years in a learning curve.

marloweopatchiefs
02-16-2009, 02:10 PM
I never said Tank and Dorsey don't have potential. But they were the worst starting DT duo in the NFL last year. Both for their ability to pressure the passer and to stop the run. Could they get better? Maybe. Are they good now? No. Do we need better DT play if we ever want a top-20 defense? Yes.

Ryan Sims turned out to be a decent reserve DT for Tampa. He'd have been the best DT on our DL this year, were he still a Chief. Dorsey and Tank are worse DTs right now than Ryan Sims. They will have to improve to be as good as him.

I understand people defending Dorsey and Tank's potential. I don't understand defending their performance. I understand you have a lot invested, after having defended Tank, Dorsey, Page, Pat Thomas, and Hali pretty vociferously as long term solutions to our defense. But you're letting your pride get in the way of accurately reviewing their performances.

I probably should have said LB, not MLB for Kawika Mitchell. In any case, he was a big physical player - the sort we have badly needed in our LB corps. Since leaving, he's only been a starting LB on a SB team and has done a whole lot better on the Bills than anyone we had this year.



This sentence has less coherence than most of what you write. Everyone knows that Ty Law, Donnie Edwards, Kendrell Bell, etc. got big contracts and have underperformed.

Just so you know, when Jonathan Vilma gets his big contract, he'll underperform.



There are people in Detroit, Oakland, New Orleans, Cleveland, and other cities who think they have talented young defenses that were mismanaged. Not being fans of those teams, we can look at those defenses and see that they just lack talent. That as much as a Cleveland fan might want to believe it, Kalimba Edwards will never be a top DE. Right now, fans of every team in the league think their team has more defensive talent than the Chiefs. The Chiefs defense personnel is the laughingstock of the league right now.



Great. Then stop whining how Vermiel left the cupboard bare.


btw peppers will be a choice if that dc is a 3-4 defense!!!!:yahoo: