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View Full Version : So . . . you Pioli/Haley haters look pretty dumb right now



jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 01:56 PM
In the first day of FA, the Chiefs have managed to get a field marshal for their defense and their QBOTF - all for a 2nd round pick.

I know, I know. You were all heavily invested in loving Herm. I know that you wanted youth instead of talent.

It's unfortunate that our bandwagon will be big enough for you when we start winning games in 2009.

bigpoppachief
02-28-2009, 02:00 PM
1st and 2nd right ?

chiefsfreak4life
02-28-2009, 02:01 PM
In the first day of FA, the Chiefs have managed to get a field marshal for their defense and their QBOTF - all for a 2nd round pick.

I know, I know. You were all heavily invested in loving Herm. I know that you wanted youth instead of talent.

It's unfortunate that our bandwagon will be big enough for you when we start winning games in 2009.


:iagree: :punk:

jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 02:02 PM
1st and 2nd right ?

Nope. Just a 2nd.

jap1
02-28-2009, 02:11 PM
I am not a hater ... until we have a string of consecutive crappy seasons. However, Im not convinced Cassel is good enough to be a good QB behind our OL ... which is at least two (3 if Waters really wants out and gets out or retires) and with our WRs (especially if TG is sent packing).

But, I think this is a fair deal. Two decent players for our 2nd rounder. Not bad.

I will begin building my Pioli shrine when he trades our 1st for a later 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder. That would be AWESOME!!!

bigpoppachief
02-28-2009, 02:20 PM
piloli is a mastermind we know cassell can play and we are only honoring the 14 million right now so we see if cassell is legit or not but we seen him in 16 games last year IN the nfl and why spend the money on some college kid? especially when u got two beast like crabtree and curry either one and im smiling

northwest
02-28-2009, 03:33 PM
i already love Pioli, a lot.

warcrychief
02-28-2009, 03:57 PM
GM of the year :bananen_smilies046: We are going to smoke the AFC WEST! :yahoo:

Bike
02-28-2009, 05:07 PM
I simply cannot believe we got Cassel and Vrabel for one 2nd round pick. Are you freakin kidding me?
There is NO WAY on Gods green earth that Peterson could have ever swung this deal.
And this is only the beginning...

cjsfw2
02-28-2009, 05:21 PM
I say we start a policy of trading our 2nd round pick for a franchise-tagged player and a proven veteran every year...who's with me?

Seek
02-28-2009, 05:25 PM
I am a supporter of Pioli and Haley.

After these moves, I am starting to become skeptical.

I will wait to hold my judgement though. In my opinion Vrabel is old and washed up. Cassel is a product of outstanding support in the players around him. There has to be drastic improvement along the offensive line before I get giddie...

AussieChiefsFan
02-28-2009, 06:03 PM
I am a supporter of Pioli and Haley.

After these moves, I am starting to become skeptical.

I will wait to hold my judgement though. In my opinion Vrabel is old and washed up. Cassel is a product of outstanding support in the players around him. There has to be drastic improvement along the offensive line before I get giddie...I also think that Pioli and Haley are great choices. And so was Cassel and vrabel. The next few years are going to best the best we've seen in a while!

Bike
02-28-2009, 06:45 PM
I am a supporter of Pioli and Haley.

After these moves, I am starting to become skeptical.

I will wait to hold my judgement though. In my opinion Vrabel is old and washed up. Cassel is a product of outstanding support in the players around him. There has to be drastic improvement along the offensive line before I get giddie...
Hmmmm. Please pass along some of that lebanese blond you must be currently enjoying...:sign0153:

chief31
02-28-2009, 07:33 PM
I am a supporter of Pioli and Haley.

After these moves, I am starting to become skeptical.

I will wait to hold my judgement though. In my opinion Vrabel is old and washed up. Cassel is a product of outstanding support in the players around him. There has to be drastic improvement along the offensive line before I get giddie...

Agreed.

Cassel played very well on an awesome team. How will he do on a 2-14 team?

We started this off-season needing o-linemen and a DE. We have lost the 34th pick and still need those same things.

It worries me that the Pats allowed 21 Sacks in '07, with Brady at the helm. But allowed 48 Sacks in '08, with Cassel at the helm.

If he got sacked 48 times behind that o-line, how many times is he gonna get sacked behind what we have?

DT14PRIEST
02-28-2009, 07:53 PM
If he got sacked 48 times behind that o-line, how many times is he gonna get sacked behind what we have?

Chiefs O-Line allowed 37 sacks in 2008 and went 1-9 with Tigpen

Pats O-Line allowed 48 sacks in 2008 and went 11-5 with Cassel

chief31
02-28-2009, 08:20 PM
Chiefs O-Line allowed 37 sacks in 2008 and went 1-9 with Tigpen

Pats O-Line allowed 48 sacks in 2008 and went 11-5 with Cassel

Thigpen actually got sacked less often with our offensive line, than anyone else had been doing for more than a year. That says something to me.

Cassel took a top-notch pass protection group (5th best in the league in '07) and managed to get sacked more than twice as much as Brady did the previous season. (5th most Sacks in '08)

It suggests to me that Cassel needs extra time in the pocket, and Thigpen works it out quicker.

While, I have stated that I think Cassel is the better QB. I don't know that he will be able to perform with our current O-line.

jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 08:25 PM
Thigpen actually got sacked less often with our offensive line, than anyone else had been doing for more than a year. That says something to me.

Cassel took a top-notch pass protection group (5th best in the league in '07) and managed to get sacked more than twice as much as Brady did the previous season. (5th most Sacks in '08)

It suggests to me that Cassel needs extra time in the pocket, and Thigpen works it out quicker.

While, I have stated that I think Cassel is the better QB. I don't know that he will be able to perform with our current O-line.

Or that the Pats OL just fell apart and they never moved to the spread to disguise that fact the way the Chiefs did.

chief31
02-28-2009, 08:30 PM
Or that the Pats OL just fell apart and they never moved to the spread to disguise that fact the way the Chiefs did.


There was no way possible for them to move to the spread. They were already in it.

Coach
02-28-2009, 08:31 PM
I am a supporter of Pioli and Haley.

After these moves, I am starting to become skeptical.

I will wait to hold my judgement though. In my opinion Vrabel is old and washed up. Cassel is a product of outstanding support in the players around him. There has to be drastic improvement along the offensive line before I get giddie...


Agreed.

Cassel played very well on an awesome team. How will he do on a 2-14 team?

We started this off-season needing o-linemen and a DE. We have lost the 34th pick and still need those same things.

It worries me that the Pats allowed 21 Sacks in '07, with Brady at the helm. But allowed 48 Sacks in '08, with Cassel at the helm.

If he got sacked 48 times behind that o-line, how many times is he gonna get sacked behind what we have?

There are just some people in this world that will never be happy. They wake up with piss in their Cheerios. Everyone in the world likes this trade for the Chiefs, except for the eternal pessimists.

If the Chiefs didn't get a QB, I'd be hearing about how the Chiefs neglected to address that. If the Chiefs didn't sign 3-4 LB's, we 'd hearing about that. Now the Chiefs pull of a blockbuster deal that nearly ANY team in the NFL would have probably agreed to, and it's still not good enough.

Amazing.:sign0153: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2:

chief31
02-28-2009, 08:41 PM
There are just some people in this world that will never be happy. They wake up with piss in their Cheerios. Everyone in the world likes this trade for the Chiefs, except for the eternal pessimists.

If the Chiefs didn't get a QB, I'd be hearing about how the Chiefs neglected to address that. If the Chiefs didn't sign 3-4 LB's, we 'd hearing about that. Now the Chiefs pull of a blockbuster deal that nearly ANY team in the NFL would have probably agreed to, and it's still not good enough.

Amazing.:sign0153: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2:

Ya know what? You were never going to hear about not getting a QB from me.

I'm not really the eternal pessimist. This team just continually does things that don't look right to me.

How has that been working out anyway?

Funny, how "any team in the NFL would have probably agreed to" but noone else did.

As of this moment, this is a good deal. Not the most amazing thing that any team has ever been able to push through.

We have a team that desperately needed O-line and D-line, and lots of it.

With only so many options for attaining what we need, there is reason to raise an eyebrow at this deal.

There is also plenty of reason to fear emulating The Arizona Cardinals. Four good games, of the last sixty is not something that I want to see us duplicate, myself.

Chief Tyler
02-28-2009, 08:56 PM
Ya know what? You were never going to hear about not getting a QB from me.

I'm not really the eternal pessimist. This team just continually does things that don't look right to me.

How has that been working out anyway?

Funny, how "any team in the NFL would have probably agreed to" but noone else did.

As of this moment, this is a good deal. Not the most amazing thing that any team has ever been able to push through.

We have a team that desperately needed O-line and D-line, and lots of it.

With only so many options for attaining what we need, there is reason to raise an eyebrow at this deal.

There is also plenty of reason to fear emulating The Arizona Cardinals. Four good games, of the last sixty is not something that I want to see us duplicate, myself.

Why would you raise an eyebrow at this deal? We had desperate needs at almost every position. There were a lot of people that still had us picking a QB even after the combine, and I wouldn't have ruled it out. We gave up a second rounder and, for all intents and purposes, got a QBOTF (and to me, much more desirable than the ones we would have had to use a 3rd pick for). And on top of that we received a leader and mentor for our defense who should hopefully be useful for 2-3 years or more. A 2nd round pick fills one hole when used to draft, we filled 2, whats so questionable about that? We still have the ability to get a few picks back and there are some quality linemen still out there in FA. Pioli has a plan and I'm all for it.

Also, not getting an OL/DL with our 34th isn't that much of a blow, we can still pick them up later, and with some luck and proper coaching they might turn out solid. Linemen (more-so OL) are players that stay productive well into their 30's. These guys get bigger and stronger as they get older, so it's hard to judge how one might turn out 6 or 7 years down the raod when he's fresh out of college.

honda522
02-28-2009, 08:59 PM
The HELL WITH HERM AND CARL. Even though I don't like the idea of Cassel, its still better than the Chiefs done in recent years.

hometeam
02-28-2009, 09:01 PM
I am a supporter of Pioli and Haley.

After these moves, I am starting to become skeptical.

I will wait to hold my judgement though. In my opinion Vrabel is old and washed up. Cassel is a product of outstanding support in the players around him. There has to be drastic improvement along the offensive line before I get giddie...


vrabel is here to lead our young linebackers into our new 3-4 defense~

hometeam
02-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Ya know what? You were never going to hear about not getting a QB from me.

I'm not really the eternal pessimist. This team just continually does things that don't look right to me.

How has that been working out anyway?

Funny, how "any team in the NFL would have probably agreed to" but noone else did.

As of this moment, this is a good deal. Not the most amazing thing that any team has ever been able to push through.

We have a team that desperately needed O-line and D-line, and lots of it.

With only so many options for attaining what we need, there is reason to raise an eyebrow at this deal.

There is also plenty of reason to fear emulating The Arizona Cardinals. Four good games, of the last sixty is not something that I want to see us duplicate, myself.

maybe the reason "any team" didnt agree to this is becuase the pats wouldnt have agreed to it with anyone but pioli?

DT14PRIEST
02-28-2009, 09:11 PM
Ya know what? You were never going to hear about not getting a QB from me.

I'm not really the eternal pessimist. This team just continually does things that don't look right to me.

How has that been working out anyway?

Funny, how "any team in the NFL would have probably agreed to" but noone else did.

As of this moment, this is a good deal. Not the most amazing thing that any team has ever been able to push through.

We have a team that desperately needed O-line and D-line, and lots of it.

With only so many options for attaining what we need, there is reason to raise an eyebrow at this deal.

There is also plenty of reason to fear emulating The Arizona Cardinals. Four good games, of the last sixty is not something that I want to see us duplicate, myself.

Think of it like this Cassel is Sanchez except with NFL experience and instead of tape from College we got one year of tape from a full season in the NFL playing NFL ball and making big time plays. We basically got a first round QB without having to waste a first round pick on him.

Any team in the NFL would have agreed to this if you look at it from a wider perspective. The Pats are/were working with limited cap space and a host of young talent they wanted to sign extensions to this year rather then waiting for next years free agency. They have a franchised tag QB making ~$15million relegated to sitting on the bench when Brady comes back and a host of problems to deal with in the draft if they can't get a deal for him done.

Cassel's franchise tag was the equivalent a hit to the salary cap of the Pats as a first round, top ten draft choice pick. It wouldn't of made sense for them to trade away Cassel to a team (Detroit) in return for the 1st pick in the draft, they simply couldnt afford it in the long run. So with the Chiefs coming in with the 34th pick (a late round 1st round pick) the Pats are dumping the fiscal responsibility of having a franchise tag fiasco in terms of money without the hit of having to take a top ten pick and paying the rookie pool an absurd amount of money which would have voided the deal in the first place.

Vrabel is just icing on the cake. A veteran presence with a few good years left in the tank that clears up more cap space as he would have been a URA next season anyway.

Any team in the NFL would have made this deal but it had to be the right deal for it to work out as smoothly as it did for both sides.

chief31
02-28-2009, 09:20 PM
Why would you raise an eyebrow at this deal? We had desperate needs at almost every position. There were a lot of people that still had us picking a QB even after the combine, and I wouldn't have ruled it out. We gave up a second rounder and, for all intents and purposes, got a QBOTF (and to me, much more desirable than the ones we would have had to use a 3rd pick for). And on top of that we received a leader and mentor for our defense who should hopefully be useful for 2-3 years or more. A 2nd round pick fills one hole when used to draft, we filled 2, whats so questionable about that? We still have the ability to get a few picks back and there are some quality linemen still out there in FA. Pioli has a plan and I'm all for it.

Also, not getting an OL/DL with our 34th isn't that much of a blow, we can still pick them up later, and with some luck and proper coaching they might turn out solid. Linemen (more-so OL) are players that stay productive well into their 30's. These guys get bigger and stronger as they get older, so it's hard to judge how one might turn out 6 or 7 years down the raod when he's fresh out of college.

There were a lot of people that still had us picking a QB.... But I was not one of them.

Since it is my opinion that QB was one of the few positions that we had a good performance from in '08, and that we are severely deficient at several other positions, then scepticism about our ability to adrress the positions that are of the biggest need should be very easily understood.

Also, not getting an OL/DL with our 34th isn't that much of a blow, we can still pick them up later, and with some luck and proper coaching they might turn out solid...

This is pretty-much why our o-line has been so terrible the past couple of seasons. Because we take guys later, on the hopes that they "might" become "solid".

The problem with that is that they "probably" "won't".


maybe the reason "any team" didnt agree to this is becuase the pats wouldnt have agreed to it with anyone but pioli?

So you honestly believe that The Pats would accept less in trade from a former employee?

I suppose it is possible. But I won't buy into that one, until it is shown to be fact.

chief31
02-28-2009, 09:31 PM
Think of it like this Cassel is Sanchez except with NFL experience and instead of tape from College we got one year of tape from a full season in the NFL playing NFL ball and making big time plays. We basically got a first round QB without having to waste a first round pick on him.

Any team in the NFL would have agreed to this if you look at it from a wider perspective. The Pats are/were working with limited cap space and a host of young talent they wanted to sign extensions to this year rather then waiting for next years free agency. They have a franchised tag QB making ~$15million relegated to sitting on the bench when Brady comes back and a host of problems to deal with in the draft if they can't get a deal for him done.

Cassel's franchise tag was the equivalent a hit to the salary cap of the Pats as a first round, top ten draft choice pick. It wouldn't of made sense for them to trade away Cassel to a team (Detroit) in return for the 1st pick in the draft, they simply couldnt afford it in the long run. So with the Chiefs coming in with the 34th pick (a late round 1st round pick) the Pats are dumping the fiscal responsibility of having a franchise tag fiasco in terms of money without the hit of having to take a top ten pick and paying the rookie pool an absurd amount of money which would have voided the deal in the first place.

Vrabel is just icing on the cake. A veteran presence with a few good years left in the tank that clears up more cap space as he would have been a URA next season anyway.

Any team in the NFL would have made this deal but it had to be the right deal for it to work out as smoothly as it did for both sides.

Seriously? You are actually trying to sell that?

Why wouldn't they accept the top pick, then trade even-up for a later pick? I imagine that they could even add a sixth round pick in a deal like that.

Rather you can afford to pay a top-ten pick, or not, those picks have a value to them regardless of your particular cap space situation.

Besides, the Lions also have the pick just ahead of in the second round too.

I agree that we got a good deal. But certainly not that any team would have done it.

The primary reason that Cassel went so cheap is because The Pats intended to trade him from day one.

They never had any intentions of paying a backup QB a franchise salary.

With few serious inquiries, the top bidder gets the deal.

We were the top bidder. Noone else was willing to beat this offer, or we wouldn't have gotten him for what we gave.

Friends and business are kept seperate.

northwest
02-28-2009, 09:59 PM
no matter how you look at it, the chiefs got better with this transaction.

do you really think the 2nd rounder would have helped our team? we have TOO MANY young, inexperienced players.

we needed this. i can't believe some people are skeptical of it.

personally, i think chiefs will deal thigpen if we can get something in return that will help our defense. i wouldn't mind keeping him either.

yashi
02-28-2009, 10:01 PM
no matter how you look at it, the chiefs got better with this transaction.

do you really think the 2nd rounder would have helped our team? we have TOO MANY young, inexperienced players.

No and I wasn't really impressed with the players that were likely to be available with our 2nd pick when taking into account the positions we need most. I didn't mind losing that pick at all.

DT14PRIEST
02-28-2009, 10:15 PM
Seriously? You are actually trying to sell that?

Why wouldn't they accept the top pick, then trade even-up for a later pick? I imagine that they could even add a sixth round pick in a deal like that.

Rather you can afford to pay a top-ten pick, or not, those picks have a value to them regardless of your particular cap space situation.

Besides, the Lions also have the pick just ahead of in the second round too.

I agree that we got a good deal. But certainly not that any team would have done it.

The primary reason that Cassel went so cheap is because The Pats intended to trade him from day one.

They never had any intentions of paying a backup QB a franchise salary.

With few serious inquiries, the top bidder gets the deal.

We were the top bidder. Noone else was willing to beat this offer, or we wouldn't have gotten him for what we gave.

Friends and business are kept seperate.

Can't say that the first round pick of this years draft and Matt Cassel are equivalent trades. I cant think of any team that would want to trade up to the number one pick in this years draft let alone see how the Patriots could trade that pick away for later round picks. It would be a bad deal for both sides. Yea the pick has value but its over valued this year and if the Pats were stuck with it you're talking about paying a ~15-20$ million dollar signing bonus on top of a bogus contract details. It technically turns out to being an equivalent hit to the cap situation for the Pats as it would of been to just keep Cassel as a Franchise back up.

The idea behind the franchise tag was to get the most bang for the buck. By picking up the early second rounder the Pats freed up that cap space while securing a pick in the draft that could be considered a late first while not having to pay him first round money.

Yes the Lions could of offered it and the Pats could of taken their second instead of ours but I dont remember hearing anything about that so its a moot point and speculation does nothing.

So the Chiefs offer was the only one of interest since we were giving them a gold in a early 2nd pick and clearing them of Cassel and his franchise debt.

Lazeye
02-28-2009, 10:26 PM
A 2nd rounder for MV to train our LB's of the future which we still need to complete is so worth the pick in itself that I am lovin this deal .

Canada
02-28-2009, 10:50 PM
In the first day of FA, the Chiefs have managed to get a field marshal for their defense and their QBOTF - all for a 2nd round pick.

I know, I know. You were all heavily invested in loving Herm. I know that you wanted youth instead of talent.

It's unfortunate that our bandwagon will be big enough for you when we start winning games in 2009.

Who is all this directed at? I did not see a lot of support for Herm or CP around here. Or is this just an attempt to make it sound like you were the only one who wanted them out and Pioli/haley in?

Big Daddy Tek
02-28-2009, 10:59 PM
Just got home from work to find JM throwing me and Tex under the bus like usual. Thats OK JM, Im all about Pioli. I have said some outstanding things about him and Im cool with whatever he wants to do. The fact that I, or anybody else, thought that Herm was leading us in the right direction is irrelevant right now. As far as "us" jumping on the bandwagon... please. We are all Chiefs fans. We all fought, cried, smiled and argued through a 2-14 season. I think we are all on this bandwagon together my friend.

jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 11:10 PM
Just got home from work to find JM throwing me and Tex under the bus like usual. Thats OK JM, Im all about Pioli. I have said some outstanding things about him and Im cool with whatever he wants to do. The fact that I, or anybody else, thought that Herm was leading us in the right direction is irrelevant right now. As far as "us" jumping on the bandwagon... please. We are all Chiefs fans. We all fought, cried, smiled and argued through a 2-14 season. I think we are all on this bandwagon together my friend.

I didn't write about you at all. In fact, I forgot you even existed.

I did throw texaschief under the bus, sure. But he earned that.

prough91
02-28-2009, 11:32 PM
I didn't write about you at all. In fact, I forgot you even existed.

I did throw texaschief under the bus, sure. But he earned that.

I thought you threw a fit when we hired Haley? It was super stupid, in my opinion, to give up a high second round pick for Cassel when he didn't do much better than Thigy who had a horrible line.

jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 11:35 PM
I thought you threw a fit when we hired Haley? It was super stupid, in my opinion, to give up a high second round pick for Cassel when he didn't do much better than Thigy who had a horrible line.

Uh, no. I didn't throw a fit when we hired Haley. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

I understand the argument against Cassel and for Thigpen. But you have to admit, getting both him and Vrabel for a 2nd was a steal.

greg3564
02-28-2009, 11:35 PM
I'm not so sure about the value of this trade. And for the record, I have fully supported Pioli and Haley and detested Herm.

Cassell had ONE good season. ONE. Now if he had at least two seasons like the ONE he just had, I'd be a little more excited. I'm not saying he will be a bust, but I'm also not saying he's the next Tom Brady or Payton Manning or even our next QB of the future. I can't label any guy the next QB of the future based on ONE season's performance. Thigpen and Cassell were pretty darn similar this season. Both share common traits. Both are young and have a bunch of seasons left in them. Cassell also had a tremendous supporting cast of players at his disposal. I hope he is everything everyone hopes he is, because if he isn't we just burned up a very valuable second round pick. Only time will tell.

Mike Vrabel? Hmm. The guy was really good last year. Many here have touted he'll be a mentor to the young guys. He has tremoundous experience. Sound familiar? The same things were said of Donnie edwards when he came back. That didn't work out so hot. Vrabel is going to be 35 years old when the season starts. Guys in their mid-30's, who play defense, don't last long.

So I said my peace, flame away.

jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 11:38 PM
I'm not so sure about the value of this trade. And for the record, I have fully supported Pioli and Haley and detested Herm.

Cassell had ONE good season. ONE. Now if he had at least two seasons like the ONE he just had, I'd be a little more excited. I'm not saying he will be a bust, but I'm also not saying he's the next Tom Brady or Payton Manning or even our next QB of the future. I can't label any guy the next QB of the future based on ONE season's performance. Thigpen and Cassell were pretty darn similar this season. Both share common traits. Both are young and have a bunch of seasons left in them. Cassell also had a tremendous supporting cast of players at his disposal. I hope he is everything everyone hopes he is, because if he isn't we just burned up a very valuable second round pick. Only time will tell.

Mike Vrabel? Hmm. The guy was really good last year. Many here have touted he'll be a mentor to the young guys. He has tremoundous experience. Sound familiar? The same things were said of Donnie edwards when he came back. That didn't work out so hot. Vrabel is going to be 35 years old when the season starts. Guys in their mid-30's, who play defense, don't last long.

So I said my peace, flame away.

I see your point. I wasn't writing about those people who hate this trade. Only those who said that they hope Haley is only a stop-gap, or who said that Pioli was already a failure.

Because love or hate the trade (and I love it), we got excellent value. And we signaled to the fan base and to the team that we are embracing a new culture of winning.

EDIT: Vrabel will be 33 when the season begins (I think). He's there to mentor the young guys and to be our defensive captain and field marshal. Is he a long term solution - no. But we need a guy like him who knows how to play the 3-4 in the NFL, and he's among the best.

prough91
02-28-2009, 11:44 PM
Uh, no. I didn't throw a fit when we hired Haley. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

I understand the argument against Cassel and for Thigpen. But you have to admit, getting both him and Vrabel for a 2nd was a steal.

It depends, to me, how much we're going to have to pay Cassel.

Coach
02-28-2009, 11:49 PM
I'm not so sure about the value of this trade. And for the record, I have fully supported Pioli and Haley and detested Herm.

Cassell had ONE good season. ONE. Now if he had at least two seasons like the ONE he just had, I'd be a little more excited. I'm not saying he will be a bust, but I'm also not saying he's the next Tom Brady or Payton Manning or even our next QB of the future. I can't label any guy the next QB of the future based on ONE season's performance. Thigpen and Cassell were pretty darn similar this season. Both share common traits. Both are young and have a bunch of seasons left in them. Cassell also had a tremendous supporting cast of players at his disposal. I hope he is everything everyone hopes he is, because if he isn't we just burned up a very valuable second round pick. Only time will tell.

Mike Vrabel? Hmm. The guy was really good last year. Many here have touted he'll be a mentor to the young guys. He has tremoundous experience. Sound familiar? The same things were said of Donnie edwards when he came back. That didn't work out so hot. Vrabel is going to be 35 years old when the season starts. Guys in their mid-30's, who play defense, don't last long.

So I said my peace, flame away.

Cassel had one good season. That is one more good NFL season than any of the other QB's the Chiefs would have been tempted to take with the #3 pick. Now we keep the #3 pick and we have a QB that has proven that he can win at the next level. Throw the 3-4 leadership that Vrabel brings to the table and this deal is a good one. A real good one.

I get the argument that we traded a 2nd rd pick for depth at QB instead of filling a need. But getting some depth at QB was a team need anyhow. This presented better value than gambling on an unproven college player.

jmlamerson
02-28-2009, 11:51 PM
It depends, to me, how much we're going to have to pay Cassel.

How much, to you, would be too much?

hermhater
02-28-2009, 11:56 PM
I get the argument that we traded a 2nd rd pick for depth at QB instead of filling a need. But getting some depth at QB was a team need anyhow. This presented better value than gambling on an unproven college player.

I didn't even need to read the rest of it.

This is truth.

yashi
03-01-2009, 12:05 AM
I really want to see him play without Welker and Moss before we give him a huge 6 year deal.

prough91
03-01-2009, 12:16 AM
How much, to you, would be too much?

Anything. Has anyone looked at Cassel's stats? Anyone? He wasn't that much better than Thigy statistically. He had a good line and still got sacked way more than Thigy.

Canada
03-01-2009, 01:32 AM
Anything. Has anyone looked at Cassel's stats? Anyone? He wasn't that much better than Thigy statistically. He had a good line and still got sacked way more than Thigy.

This would be a very valid argument if they played for the same team. They didn't. Maybe Thigpen would be better with the Pats, maybe Cassel will be better with the Chiefs. Fact is, if Cassel went to any other team with Vrabel for a 2nd rounder you would all be talking about what a great deal it was. And then we would have to hear about Pioli and Haley sitting on their as$es doing nothing.

bspray
03-01-2009, 03:20 AM
I think a good way to determine whether or not this was a good trade for the Chiefs would be to look at recent history and see what we've acquired in the 2nd round and see if Mike Vrabel and Matt Cassel (proven winners) have more value than any one of these individual picks?

2008 - Brandon Flowers
2007 - Turk McBride
2006 - Bernard Pollard
2005 - Kris Wilson
2004 - Kawika Mitchell

If you want to make the argument that Pioli is drafting now and not Peterson, we can look at Pioli's last five 2nd round picks:

2008 - Terrence Wheatley - CB
2007 - Kareem Brown - DT
2006 - Chad Jackson - WR
2005 - No draft pick - took Logan Mankins OG in the 1st round
2004 - Marquis Hill - DE

This is just my opinion but I will take these two guys and the attitude and experience they bring to the locker room over any of the second rounds picks on either team's draft board over the last 5 years.

Brian

Three7s
03-01-2009, 03:50 AM
Anything. Has anyone looked at Cassel's stats? Anyone? He wasn't that much better than Thigy statistically. He had a good line and still got sacked way more than Thigy.
I have, but there's something you don't realize. Thigpen was in the spread 90% of the time. That 10% when he wasn't in the spread, he was awful! Right now, Cassel is better than Thigpen, Thigpen could become better, and I hope he does! We killed a lot of birds with one stone with this deal, and I'm on the Pioli train now more than ever!

As for anyone thinking Cassel will be a bust with us, that's just the fun of the NFL right?

Seek
03-01-2009, 09:35 AM
There are just some people in this world that will never be happy. They wake up with piss in their Cheerios. Everyone in the world likes this trade for the Chiefs, except for the eternal pessimists.

If the Chiefs didn't get a QB, I'd be hearing about how the Chiefs neglected to address that. If the Chiefs didn't sign 3-4 LB's, we 'd hearing about that. Now the Chiefs pull of a blockbuster deal that nearly ANY team in the NFL would have probably agreed to, and it's still not good enough.

Amazing.:sign0153: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2: :toast2:

I could be wrong but in a thread about Cassell going to Tampa, you stated that you were glad Cassell wasn't going to be a Chief.... Now you are happy....

I am not saying I am pissy about it.... I am just skeptical. I am sure they have a plan and when it comes to, it will be better. I just don't like it so far but at least there is a plan.

Canada
03-01-2009, 09:49 AM
I could be wrong but in a thread about Cassell going to Tampa, you stated that you were glad Cassell wasn't going to be a Chief.... Now you are happy....

I am not saying I am pissy about it.... I am just skeptical. I am sure they have a plan and when it comes to, it will be better. I just don't like it so far but at least there is a plan.

He also said that he thought we would have to give up a ton to get him. I think most are happy since it only cost a second.

But like it was stated before, some people are never happy. :bananen_smilies046:

Seek
03-01-2009, 09:55 AM
He also said that he thought we would have to give up a ton to get him. I think most are happy since it only cost a second.

But like it was stated before, some people are never happy. :bananen_smilies046:

Just because I don't think Cassell is any better than Thigpen does not mean I am always unhappy. I think a second was to much. You can go back to Cassel threads weeks ago. I wasn't in favor of it then and I am not now... I really think he is going to need a lot more support around him. I will be happy to be wrong.

I am fine with Vrabel. It was a much needed postion specially if we are switching to a 3-4. But I see the signing much like I did when we signed Donnie Edwards.... Maybe two years.

Seek
03-01-2009, 09:57 AM
He also said that he thought we would have to give up a ton to get him. I think most are happy since it only cost a second.

But like it was stated before, some people are never happy. :bananen_smilies046:
To add to this. It was my understanding that Cassell got the tag, so that the Jets couldn't sign him. The relationship Pioli and Bilichick has definately allowed that trade to happen.

Time will tell.

Bigmoe
03-01-2009, 10:06 AM
Thigpen actually got sacked less often with our offensive line, than anyone else had been doing for more than a year. That says something to me.

Cassel took a top-notch pass protection group (5th best in the league in '07) and managed to get sacked more than twice as much as Brady did the previous season. (5th most Sacks in '08)

It suggests to me that Cassel needs extra time in the pocket, and Thigpen works it out quicker.

While, I have stated that I think Cassel is the better QB. I don't know that he will be able to perform with our current O-line.

One of the knocks I've heard on Cassel is that he holds the ball too long. Which I figure translates to the higher number of sacks. However, I think this is something that can be corrected.

Ldub
03-01-2009, 10:08 AM
I could be wrong but in a thread about Cassell going to Tampa, you stated that you were glad Cassell wasn't going to be a Chief.... Now you are happy....

I am not saying I am pissy about it.... I am just skeptical. I am sure they have a plan and when it comes to, it will be better. I just don't like it so far but at least there is a plan.

I didnt want us to go after Cassell either, but I never dreamed we would be able to get him for a 2nd round pick. Even if he doesnt start, (and i think he will) just having him here makes Thiggy better. Two talented QBs fighting for 1 starting spot only makes both players, and our team better.

This is nothing but good for the team. I understand why chief fans are pessimistic, but the Herm era is over... STOP B!TCHING. :bananen_smilies046:

Coach
03-01-2009, 10:11 AM
I have, but there's something you don't realize. Thigpen was in the spread 90% of the time. That 10% when he wasn't in the spread, he was awful! Right now, Cassel is better than Thigpen, Thigpen could become better, and I hope he does! We killed a lot of birds with one stone with this deal, and I'm on the Pioli train now more than ever!

As for anyone thinking Cassel will be a bust with us, that's just the fun of the NFL right?

I think the jury is still out on who is better. I look forward to seeing them both compete for the job. I would agree though that at this point, it is Cassel's job to lose.


Just because I don't think Cassell is any better than Thigpen does not mean I am always unhappy. I think a second was to much.

Heading into this season, the Chiefs had questions marks around QB. I think getting Cassel has helped all of these problems.

Now he have a healthy QB situation. Two promising young guys to choose from. If Stafford or Sanchez had fallen to the second round, the Chiefs would have probably taken them. I'd personally rather have Cassel than either of those guys right now based upon what we know. For that matter, the Chiefs may have taken either of those guys with the 1st pick, even worse.

I initially didn't want Cassel because the price tag was way too high. The deal changed. I also don't want the Chiefs to sign Ray Lewis for $20mm. But if he is willing to play for $1mm, then I'll change my tune on him as well.

leaves
03-01-2009, 10:39 AM
This has been an exciting few days. I'm glad to have Vrabel, and I can bite my lip to watch how Cassel prodces. Somethings to think about though are the facts that Chan isn't gonna fit us much anymore (Haley'll prob. do some playcalling), Thig isn't gonna get the time of day with Cassel here n Pioli upstairs, and between the rumors and Cassel signing..TG will probably be traded off towards draft day. It's gonna be an interesting offseason, finally some buzz on us.

Drunker Hillbilly
03-01-2009, 11:52 AM
Anything. Has anyone looked at Cassel's stats? Anyone? He wasn't that much better than Thigy statistically. He had a good line and still got sacked way more than Thigy.
Really? Not that much better????

Cassels numbers:

21 TD's to Thig's 18
11 INT's to Thigs 12
89.4 rating to Thigs 76 rating
3693 passing yds to Thigs 2603 yds
63.4% completions to Thigs 54.8

I say those are the numbers we need to be concerned with and they are miles in front of Thigpens numbers with the exception of the INT's!! IMO. NOW, he had better receivers to throw to so that may be a factor but the overall numbers don't compare.

yashi
03-01-2009, 12:05 PM
The most important of the stats is the completion %.. Cassel's accuracy is leaps and bounds ahead of Thigpen's at this point. I'm a big fan of Thiggy, but he blew some opportunities down the stretch of games from not being poised in the pocket and making some poor throws.

Big Daddy Tek
03-01-2009, 08:17 PM
I didnt want us to go after Cassell either, but I never dreamed we would be able to get him for a 2nd round pick. Even if he doesnt start, (and i think he will) just having him here makes Thiggy better. Two talented QBs fighting for 1 starting spot only makes both players, and our team better.

This is nothing but good for the team. I understand why chief fans are pessimistic, but the Herm era is over... STOP B!TCHING. :bananen_smilies046:

There will be no competition between these guys at camp. You can guarantee that. Cassell is the starter, final.

AussieChiefsFan
03-01-2009, 08:19 PM
cassel will give us the kick start we need to get back in the competition!:yahoo:

Pro_Angler
03-01-2009, 08:32 PM
I never said anything bad about either peole. i only said i am not sold on haley yet, but will give him a chance. i think the deal that Pioli made with NE was genious even though i love thig and want Cassel traded for a #1 pick.

HokieChief 09
03-01-2009, 08:36 PM
I'm pretty sure Cassel is the starter. We need to get this guy a long-term deal first, but I would assume we brought him in to be the starter. We need to seriously beef up this offensive line also, so that he isn't running for his life next season. Ditch McIntosh, possibly draft Jason Smith or Eugene Monroe, sign a FA(any one know of any notable offensive line free agents?).

But yes, Cassel will be the starter week 1.

Canada
03-01-2009, 09:08 PM
There will be no competition between these guys at camp. You can guarantee that. Cassell is the starter, final.

If they both end up in camp together and Cassel stinks and Thigpen lights sh!t up, Thigpen will start. I don't think anyone our new management cares what anyones name is. they care about performance.

jap1
03-01-2009, 09:24 PM
I'm pretty sure Cassel is the starter. We need to get this guy a long-term deal first, but I would assume we brought him in to be the starter. We need to seriously beef up this offensive line also, so that he isn't running for his life next season. Ditch McIntosh, possibly draft Jason Smith or Eugene Monroe, sign a FA(any one know of any notable offensive line free agents?).

But yes, Cassel will be the starter week 1.

Here is a list of the free agents and where they have signed, etc. Updated daily. Im not affiliated with them, but they keep things updated pretty well.
http://walterfootball.com/freeagents.php

The only decent player left in my opinion would be Matt Birk, C, Vikings. He is pretty old though (33). Ray Willis of Seattle may be a cheap addition that we can experiment with. I dont think there are any real good FA OL available anymore. We will have to go through the draft or make a trade for OL help.

PawnshopMarimba
03-01-2009, 09:39 PM
Really? Not that much better????

Cassels numbers:

21 TD's to Thig's 18
11 INT's to Thigs 12
89.4 rating to Thigs 76 rating
3693 passing yds to Thigs 2603 yds
63.4% completions to Thigs 54.8

I say those are the numbers we need to be concerned with and they are miles in front of Thigpens numbers with the exception of the INT's!! IMO. NOW, he had better receivers to throw to so that may be a factor but the overall numbers don't compare.

Considering that Cassel played in more games than Thig, and also had better talent offensively surrounding him, those numbers AREN'T that far off.

jmlamerson
03-01-2009, 09:44 PM
Considering that Cassel played in more games than Thig, and also had better talent offensively surrounding him, those numbers AREN'T that far off.

The completion % is. And that's the one that's most important.

PawnshopMarimba
03-01-2009, 09:49 PM
The completion % is. And that's the one that's most important.

Quite a few drops, throw aways, and incompletions caused by a faulty o-line by my count, as well. A significant contribution to that number.

Not to mention Tyler's rocky start in Atlanta.

jmlamerson
03-01-2009, 09:59 PM
Quite a few drops, throw aways, and incompletions caused by a faulty o-line by my count, as well. A significant contribution to that number.

Not to mention Tyler's rocky start in Atlanta.

The Pats OL isn't much better anymore. Cassel hit the ground more than Thigpen, and it isn't because he liked to hold the ball.

Yeah, drops were a part of it. But not that big of a part.

Cassel is bigger, more accurate, and won eleven games last year. I like Thigpen. He's a good player, and I wouldn't have complained if he were our starter in 2009 and beyond. I want him to stay on the team as a gadget guy/backup. But we upgraded from a very serviceable Taurus to a brand new Lexus this weekend.

Bike
03-01-2009, 11:14 PM
If they both end up in camp together and Cassel stinks and Thigpen lights sh!t up, Thigpen will start. I don't think anyone our new management cares what anyones name is. they care about performance.
And if Thig does win out, Cassel will be sitting on the bench collecting 15 mil. Pioli drafted Cassel. Pioli has 3 rings. Pioli brought Cassel here to get his 4th.
That being said I agree with you that Thig will have to be truely outstanding in pre-season to win his job back.
Thats if he's not traded by then...:bananen_smilies046:

DT14PRIEST
03-01-2009, 11:30 PM
Quite a few drops, throw aways, and incompletions caused by a faulty o-line by my count, as well. A significant contribution to that number.

Not to mention Tyler's rocky start in Atlanta.

You can't just throw blame for lower completion % on drops and incompletions on a faulty O-line. You can make that case for every quarterback in the league when they let the ball loose if thats how you're going to throw up an arguement. Those are variables and sitatuions that all QBs go through.

And everyone has a rocky game. Look at Cassel's numbers against Pittsburgh...a whopping 38.9 QB rating.

Bike
03-01-2009, 11:44 PM
The most important of the stats is the completion %.. Cassel's accuracy is leaps and bounds ahead of Thigpen's at this point. I'm a big fan of Thiggy, but he blew some opportunities down the stretch of games from not being poised in the pocket and making some poor throws.
Comparing stats of 2 qb's on 2 different teams can be misleading to judge who may be the better qb imo. Too many intangibles. Cassels' stats were no doubt better than Thigs'. But - Cassel had the one intangible that Thig did not: A head coach that knew how to game plan. To me that makes these 2 qbs pretty even...

Drunker Hillbilly
03-02-2009, 12:23 AM
If they both end up in camp together and Cassel stinks and Thigpen lights sh!t up, Thigpen will start. I don't think anyone our new management cares what anyones name is. they care about performance.
The're not paying Cassel $14 million to be a back up!!! I don't care how good Thigpen is, unless Cassel doesn't throw 1 completion this offseason, he's the starter!

tornadospotter
03-02-2009, 12:34 AM
Cassel, MC, will need to play well for us! If he is the starter, because of dollars, he better play like a 14 million dollar QB. No excuses allowed.

greg3564
03-02-2009, 12:58 AM
The're not paying Cassel $14 million to be a back up!!! I don't care how good Thigpen is, unless Cassel doesn't throw 1 completion this offseason, he's the starter!

That mentality worked really well for Brodie Croyle. I think the gloves are off and Cassell will have a slight edge. Haley is going to gut check these guys and whoever wins the starting spot gets it. But I don't think Cassell is the automatic starter by any means.

Canada
03-02-2009, 05:50 AM
The're not paying Cassel $14 million to be a back up!!! I don't care how good Thigpen is, unless Cassel doesn't throw 1 completion this offseason, he's the starter!


Si the guy with the most $$ starts on the Chiefs next season? I guess there is no point to even trying in camp then. :sign0098: