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imcorrect
03-26-2009, 10:01 PM
I found this on the web and it got me thinking about our front 7.
3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)
3-4 OLBs are the playmakers of the D. They get the glory of picking up sacks on the QB. They must have strong pass rush skills and be able to drop into coverage. If the 3-4 OLBs are unable to consistently apply pressure on the QB, the D is very vulnerable in the passing game. They tend to weigh around 245-270, and many are former 4-3 DE/OLB "tweeners". Many 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the ability to play in space. The more agile 4-3 RDEs, such as the Jets' John Abraham (6-4 256), are able to play both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Many 4-3 OLBs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the pass rush skills and the ability to go toe-to-toe with an OT. Examples of solid 3-4 OLBs are the Patriots' Willie McGinest (6-5 270) and the Steelers' Joey Porter (6-2 248)
3-4 DEs tend to weigh around 290-310, and many are former 4-3 DT/DE "tweeners". They must be able to play the run well. The 3-4 DE is responsible for the B and C gaps in the running game and lines up in the 5-technique position, so he is head-up on the OT. It's tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE, because a 3-4 DE doesn't have the freedom to go willy nilly upfield. He has to protect the LBs in order for the 3-4 to work. Panthers' 4-3 DE Julius Peppers said he did not like playing 3-4 DE because he felt like he was essentially a DT. Unlike Peppers (6-6 290), most 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 DE, because they lack the size and ability to hold up against the run. Examples of solid 3-4 DEs are the Patriots' Richard Seymour (6-6 310), the Steelers' Aaron Smith (6-5 300), and the Raiders' Bobby Hamilton (6-5 285)
3-4 ILBs must be stout in run support. Because there are only 3 DL to match up against 5 OL, they must be able to stack and shed an unblocked offensive lineman in the running game. How hard is it to play 3-4 ILB? Check out this telling quote by All-Pro Ray Lewis, who is glad to be finished playing 3-4 ILB (the Ravens are switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and 46 for the 2005 season):So who fits these needs for us?

To me it seems Dorsey does have the skill set for NT he just needs to put on 20-40 pounds. If Hali is going to be used mainly as a rusher on passing downs, who will play DE? We look to be set at both LB positions, especially if we draft another one. I know this has been talked to death in here but a lot of people just say "he could play this" without supporting evidence. So now that we are all educated, who goes where and why?

balto
03-26-2009, 11:18 PM
DE-Get in Draft
DE-Dorsey
NT-Tank

OLB-Get in Draft
OLB-Hali
ILB-Vrabel
ILB-DJ

So we just need two guys from draft

jmlamerson
03-27-2009, 12:39 AM
To me it seems Dorsey does have the skill set for NT he just needs to put on 20-40 pounds. If Hali is going to be used mainly as a rusher on passing downs, who will play DE? We look to be set at both LB positions, especially if we draft another one. I know this has been talked to death in here but a lot of people just say "he could play this" without supporting evidence. So now that we are all educated, who goes where and why?

Not to be an a$$, but how can you list the qualities of a NT and then write that Dorsey has the skills to be one? Dorsey has the skills to be a good gap DT in a Cover 2 defense. Put him in a Cover 2 defense with a big guy next to him (think Kevin Williams/Pat Williams or Warren Sapp/Anthony McFarland) and he can be a high motor sack threat. But he is specifically unsuited to be a NT. He doesn't have the strength or the ability to go one on one with an OL, much less fight a double team.

Tank is closer to a NT, and he has the strength for one, but I don't think he has the motor or talent. Like Dorsey, he was getting blown up most downs in 2008. He'd need to put on 20 lbs as well.

I think we either draft a NT or pick one up in FA because our current guys won't be able to handle it. I think Tank is our backup NT in 2009.

As for DE, I can't see Hali getting much work next year. Maybe they'll try him at OLB in preseason. Maybe they'll use him as a situational rusher. But he won't be our full-time DE, I can't think. I think we try Dorsey as a 3-4 DE and pick one or two up in the draft or FA.

Right now, our four LBs are DL/Vrabel/Beisel/Williams. I have to think we draft an ILB later in the draft because Beisel and Vrabel aren't every down guys any more.

You forgot FS as well. Look at every successful 3-4. It has a hard-hitting FS who's decent in coverage. You know, the exact opposite of Page. Again, FA or the draft seems likely.

I think Pollard has the chance to be a Polamalu-type SS in the 3-4, and both Flowers and Carr are physical enough for the job at CB.

In closing, we need (in order):

NT
DE
FS
ILB

We could also use some more depth at DE and OLB. In short, more than we can realistically get only in the draft. My draft wish:

1st round: Raji (NT) - just tie the position down for the next decade

3rd round: Best RT

4th round: Best DE

5th round: Best FS

6th round: Best ILB

7th round: Best OLB and best DE

tornadospotter
03-27-2009, 03:11 AM
Why does a NT have to be tall? Why does a NT have to out weigh the centers or guards?
Just asking?

tornadospotter
03-27-2009, 03:20 AM
YouTube - THIS IS LSU FOOTBALL PART IV: MEET THE DEFENSE PART I

bigpoppachief
03-27-2009, 04:11 AM
YouTube - THIS IS LSU FOOTBALL PART IV: MEET THE DEFENSE PART I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmZM9c5HQqY)


Im with you man I think Dorsey is going to go down as one of the best DT EVER ! We dont need Raji !

AussieChiefsFan
03-27-2009, 07:26 AM
Im with you man I think Dorsey is going to go down as one of the best DT EVER ! We dont need Raji !


YouTube - THIS IS LSU FOOTBALL PART IV: MEET THE DEFENSE PART I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmZM9c5HQqY)
With you guys too!:smilies_musik45:

jap1
03-27-2009, 08:48 AM
Why does a NT have to be tall? Why does a NT have to out weigh the centers or guards?
Just asking?

NT dont have to be tall. Some even argue that height can be a disadvantage for NTs. NT dont need to outweigh the C's and G's either. However, they do need to OVERPOWER them. A NT is supposed to be an immovable wall or, even better, be able to push the C and G back into the RB/QB's face.

Because of the fact that heavier people are harder to move, many people use weight as an estimation of the NT's ability to not get pushed back.

If a NT can be really strong, get good leverage (i.e. get lower than the OL which is why I argue that height is unimportant), and have a strong lower body drive then they probably have the basic phsyical skills necessary for the position.

yashi
03-27-2009, 10:40 AM
I really think we should draft Raji... I've been on and off the Raji bandwagon, and then on and off the Curry bandwagon, and also the Monroe/Smith one. But I think Raji improves the team more than Curry does because of the position he plays, and we can get a good OT in the 3rd round.

Raji compliments Dorsey very well. And if we're running a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, Dorsey can slide from 3-4 DE to DT in the 4-3 packages next to Raji. For me, this suddenly makes the hybrid scheme play well to our personnel.

The biggest problem with Curry is that it's not difficult to get a good LB, but it is very difficult to get a good NT. The same goes for OTs, good ones are found in the later rounds of every draft.

There's been a lot of talk about Raji's character, but I read a quote from him saying that missing 2007 because of academic probation humbled him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he had any problems this year.

I read this article I found the other day, which makes a very convincing argument.

Why BJ Raji Makes Sense for the Kansas City Chiefs’ Transition To a 3-4 Defense | NFL Sport Channel (http://www.nflsportchannel.com/news/why-bj-raji-makes-sense-for-the-kansas-city-chiefs-transition-to-a-3-4-defense/)

Seriously, watch this and tell me you don't want him on this team.

YouTube - BJ Raji uses one Notre Dame player to tackle another.

brish
03-27-2009, 01:58 PM
I'd love for us to pick Curry at the no. 3, but if we are serious about the 3-4 then I think we have to give Raji some serious thought. Im just not sure anyone currently on the roster, can fill the position as NT to satisfaction.

And lets be honest, its a pretty damn important position in a 3-4.
Im just damn hooked on Curry, cause I 100% sure he is going to be a pro bowl LB for many years to come.

Anywho.. In Pioli i trust! ;)

AussieChiefsFan
03-27-2009, 07:54 PM
I really think we should draft Raji... I've been on and off the Raji bandwagon, and then on and off the Curry bandwagon, and also the Monroe/Smith one. But I think Raji improves the team more than Curry does because of the position he plays, and we can get a good OT in the 3rd round.

Raji compliments Dorsey very well. And if we're running a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, Dorsey can slide from 3-4 DE to DT in the 4-3 packages next to Raji. For me, this suddenly makes the hybrid scheme play well to our personnel.

The biggest problem with Curry is that it's not difficult to get a good LB, but it is very difficult to get a good NT. The same goes for OTs, good ones are found in the later rounds of every draft.

There's been a lot of talk about Raji's character, but I read a quote from him saying that missing 2007 because of academic probation humbled him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he had any problems this year.

I read this article I found the other day, which makes a very convincing argument.

Why BJ Raji Makes Sense for the Kansas City Chiefs’ Transition To a 3-4 Defense | NFL Sport Channel (http://www.nflsportchannel.com/news/why-bj-raji-makes-sense-for-the-kansas-city-chiefs-transition-to-a-3-4-defense/)

Seriously, watch this and tell me you don't want him on this team.

YouTube - BJ Raji uses one Notre Dame player to tackle another. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAs7UtO5-S4)Right, Pick #1 Aaron Curry, Pick #3 ,NOT 2 (remember patriots get that one). So pick #3 to BJ Raji if he hasn't been drafted yet.

yashi
03-27-2009, 09:00 PM
Right, Pick #1 Aaron Curry, Pick #3 ,NOT 2 (remember patriots get that one). So pick #3 to BJ Raji if he hasn't been drafted yet.
Raji is going to go in the top 5.

bigpoppachief
03-27-2009, 11:26 PM
I really think we should draft Raji... I've been on and off the Raji bandwagon, and then on and off the Curry bandwagon, and also the Monroe/Smith one. But I think Raji improves the team more than Curry does because of the position he plays, and we can get a good OT in the 3rd round.

Raji compliments Dorsey very well. And if we're running a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, Dorsey can slide from 3-4 DE to DT in the 4-3 packages next to Raji. For me, this suddenly makes the hybrid scheme play well to our personnel.

The biggest problem with Curry is that it's not difficult to get a good LB, but it is very difficult to get a good NT. The same goes for OTs, good ones are found in the later rounds of every draft.

There's been a lot of talk about Raji's character, but I read a quote from him saying that missing 2007 because of academic probation humbled him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he had any problems this year.

I read this article I found the other day, which makes a very convincing argument.

Why BJ Raji Makes Sense for the Kansas City Chiefs’ Transition To a 3-4 Defense | NFL Sport Channel (http://www.nflsportchannel.com/news/why-bj-raji-makes-sense-for-the-kansas-city-chiefs-transition-to-a-3-4-defense/)

Seriously, watch this and tell me you don't want him on this team.

YouTube - BJ Raji uses one Notre Dame player to tackle another. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAs7UtO5-S4)


I just dont liek raji for some reason really don't know why. I would rather get a OT than to get Raji. DK If we do get him I will be a fan because he is a chief but until then I am not impressed. I just dont think he played against anyone in college but then again I really dont follow college football much except big 12. Like I said I dont want to use a 3rd pick on him but if we do so be it. Hoenstly I would like to trade down and maybe grab another 3rd rounder or hopefully a 2nd and get E Brown. I really liek that kid been watching alot of video on him.

Coach
03-28-2009, 02:01 AM
I found this on the web and it got me thinking about our front 7.

3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)
3-4 OLBs are the playmakers of the D. They get the glory of picking up sacks on the QB. They must have strong pass rush skills and be able to drop into coverage. If the 3-4 OLBs are unable to consistently apply pressure on the QB, the D is very vulnerable in the passing game. They tend to weigh around 245-270, and many are former 4-3 DE/OLB "tweeners". Many 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the ability to play in space. The more agile 4-3 RDEs, such as the Jets' John Abraham (6-4 256), are able to play both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Many 4-3 OLBs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the pass rush skills and the ability to go toe-to-toe with an OT. Examples of solid 3-4 OLBs are the Patriots' Willie McGinest (6-5 270) and the Steelers' Joey Porter (6-2 248)
3-4 DEs tend to weigh around 290-310, and many are former 4-3 DT/DE "tweeners". They must be able to play the run well. The 3-4 DE is responsible for the B and C gaps in the running game and lines up in the 5-technique position, so he is head-up on the OT. It's tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE, because a 3-4 DE doesn't have the freedom to go willy nilly upfield. He has to protect the LBs in order for the 3-4 to work. Panthers' 4-3 DE Julius Peppers said he did not like playing 3-4 DE because he felt like he was essentially a DT. Unlike Peppers (6-6 290), most 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 DE, because they lack the size and ability to hold up against the run. Examples of solid 3-4 DEs are the Patriots' Richard Seymour (6-6 310), the Steelers' Aaron Smith (6-5 300), and the Raiders' Bobby Hamilton (6-5 285)
3-4 ILBs must be stout in run support. Because there are only 3 DL to match up against 5 OL, they must be able to stack and shed an unblocked offensive lineman in the running game. How hard is it to play 3-4 ILB? Check out this telling quote by All-Pro Ray Lewis, who is glad to be finished playing 3-4 ILB (the Ravens are switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and 46 for the 2005 season):

Excellent post.



In closing, we need (in order):

NT
DE
FS
ILB

We could also use some more depth at DE and OLB. In short, more than we can realistically get only in the draft. My draft wish:

1st round: Raji (NT) - just tie the position down for the next decade

3rd round: Best RT

4th round: Best DE

5th round: Best FS

6th round: Best ILB

7th round: Best OLB and best DE

I think if the Chiefs draft based on need, you have nailed the positions they will address in that order. 1st round pick IMO will be a defensive player(Curry, Raji, Everette Brown).

Chief Tyler
03-29-2009, 02:39 PM
Here come some scenarios that I feel fill the most holes and put us in the best possible position for next year, have fun tearing them apart!

1. Using the picks that we have right now with no/minimal trading.

1. Raji (NT)
3. D. Robinson (G) (considered Krueger again, but is he really the type of hybrid and/or 3-4 DE that we need right now? we still have Hali and Babin)
4. Scott McKillop (ILB) Pitt, only had one real year to analyze in college, but an impressive one with a pretty impressive combine)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (6-5, 47 reps at 225, fairly quick 40 time for a tackle, mediocre numbers during the season, but thats why he's a 5th round prospect. If this guy doesn't scream 3-4 DE, I don't know what does.)
6. FS/OT/WR/LB
7. FS/OT/WR/LB

2. Trade down a little bit into the 8-12 positions. I guess it is conceivable that the Bills, Broncos, Jags and Packers could all want to get into the top D player mix (with Mc-D at Denver, maybe not them so much). But trading down to that spot the pick equivalents would be about their 1, 2, 3, (4) for our first.

1. E. Brown (DE/OLB) (Raji if by some miracle he is still there, but if he gets out of the top 5 there are going to be 5 more really considering him in the next 10 or so picks)
2. P. Loadholt (OT)
3(a). D. Robinson (G)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4(a). Scott McKillop (ILB) (Same as above.)
4(b). Nic Harris (S) (Watched him play in Manhattan, looked at numbers, basically a S/LB, 3-4 sounds like a fit)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. DE/WR
7. DE/WR

3. Trade down with the Eagles, they say that with a franchise OT they feel they can make a SB run, but when was the last time Philly traded up in a draft? el oh el. Anywho, if they really wanted Smith/Monroe it would cost about both firsts, the second, third and something like a 2nd - 4th next year.

1(a). R. Maualuga (ILB) (This feels like no-mans land for Chiefs needs, Tyson Jackson could be a possibility here, he's basically an athletic tackle who could bulk up)
1(b). A. Mack (C) (Move Goff to RG and our line is starting to look pretty good)
2. Kenny Britt (WR)
3(a). Lawrence Sidbury (DE/OLB)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4. Nic Harris (S/LB) (Same as above.)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. LB/DE
7. LB/DE

4. Pioli works his magic and trades down in the first by increments, team by team, giving us 1 late first round pick and like 10 second rounders. (A guy can dream).

Scenario 2 is my personal favorite and the one that seems most plausible. We get the best DE/OLB tweener in the draft, a RT, a RG and eventual replacement for Waters, a massive NT with plenty of upside, a solid ILB, a 3-4 S prototype, and a DT that fits the mold of a 3-4 DE. 7 total potential starters.

Edit: I just realized I've given a lot of OU love, hate the school, but I hope thats not a problem!

The Philly scenario was a little too hard to fill out, some picks felt like stretches, some guys that might work for our team as far as type and skill and would fall around the given pick (like M. Johnson) don't seem to have the right mindset.

jmlamerson
03-29-2009, 02:48 PM
Here come some scenarios that I feel fill the most holes and put us in the best possible position for next year, have fun tearing them apart!

1. Using the picks that we have right now with no/minimal trading.

1. Raji (NT)
3. D. Robinson (G) (considered Krueger again, but is he really the type of hybrid and/or 3-4 DE that we need right now? we still have Hali and Babin)
4. Scott McKillop (ILB) Pitt, only had one real year to analyze in college, but an impressive one with a pretty impressive combine)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (6-5, 47 reps at 225, fairly quick 40 time for a tackle, mediocre numbers during the season, but thats why he's a 5th round prospect. If this guy doesn't scream 3-4 DE, I don't know what does.)
6. FS/OT/WR/LB
7. FS/OT/WR/LB

2. Trade down a little bit into the 8-12 positions. I guess it is conceivable that the Bills, Broncos, Jags and Packers could all want to get into the top D player mix (with Mc-D at Denver, maybe not them so much). But trading down to that spot the pick equivalents would be about their 1, 2, 3, (4) for our first.

1. E. Brown (DE/OLB) (Raji if by some miracle he is still there, but if he gets out of the top 5 there are going to be 5 more really considering him in the next 10 or so picks)
2. P. Loadholt (OT)
3(a). D. Robinson (G)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4(a). Scott McKillop (ILB) (Same as above.)
4(b). Nic Harris (S) (Watched him play in Manhattan, looked at numbers, basically a S/LB, 3-4 sounds like a fit)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. DE/WR
7. DE/WR

3. Trade down with the Eagles, they say that with a franchise OT they feel they can make a SB run, but when was the last time Philly traded up in a draft? el oh el. Anywho, if they really wanted Smith/Monroe it would cost about both firsts, the second, third and something like a 2nd - 4th next year.

1(a). R. Maualuga (ILB) (This feels like no-mans land for Chiefs needs, Tyson Jackson could be a possibility here, he's basically an athletic tackle who could bulk up)
1(b). A. Mack (C) (Move Goff to RG and our line is starting to look pretty good)
2. Kenny Britt (WR)
3(a). Lawrence Sidbury (DE/OLB)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4. Nic Harris (S/LB) (Same as above.)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. LB/DE
7. LB/DE

4. Pioli works his magic and trades down in the first by increments, team by team, giving us 1 late first round pick and like 10 second rounders. (A guy can dream).

Scenario 2 is my personal favorite and the one that seems most plausible. We get the best DE/OLB tweener in the draft, a RT, a RG and eventual replacement for Waters, a massive NT with plenty of upside, a solid ILB, a 3-4 S prototype, and a DT that fits the mold of a 3-4 DE. 7 total potential starters.

Edit: I just realized I've given a lot of OU love, hate the school, but I hope thats not a problem!

The Philly scenario was a little too hard to fill out, some picks felt like stretches, some guys that might work for our team as far as type and skill and would fall around the given pick (like M. Johnson) don't seem to have the right mindset.

You're crazy. No team is going to give up nearly that much to move up to 3. And Duke Robinson won't be available in the 3rd if we stand pat.

Chief Tyler
03-29-2009, 02:56 PM
You're crazy. No team is going to give up nearly that much to move up to 3. And Duke Robinson won't be available in the 3rd if we stand pat.

Going by draft point values. 3rd overall = 2200. 8 = 1400, so to make up the difference it would be a 2+3 and possible 4th.

And on mocks I've seen Robinson anywhere from mid second to low 3rd, even if he's gone there are some pretty solid OL guys still out there.

Coach
03-29-2009, 03:56 PM
You're crazy. No team is going to give up nearly that much to move up to 3. And Duke Robinson won't be available in the 3rd if we stand pat.

Exactly what I was thinking as I read that post. Teams don't want to trade into the top 5. They only want to trade out of it. Like the Chiefs for example. All this will change once the rookie salary cap is finally added.




And on mocks I've seen Robinson anywhere from mid second to low 3rd, even if he's gone there are some pretty solid OL guys still out there.

There will still be pretty good guards, and RT's on the board when we pick in the 3rd.

jmlamerson
03-29-2009, 07:30 PM
Going by draft point values. 3rd overall = 2200. 8 = 1400, so to make up the difference it would be a 2+3 and possible 4th.

And on mocks I've seen Robinson anywhere from mid second to low 3rd, even if he's gone there are some pretty solid OL guys still out there.

No one uses that chart anymore, not since top-5 rookies started getting massively overpaid. If any team is dumb enough to give us a 2nd to swap firsts, we take that, much less throwing in a 3rd and 4th.

Duke will be gone by the middle of the 2nd. Tell the truth, I don't see him lasting past the OG-needy Steelers at 32.

I admire your enthusiasm, and if any of those trades even come close to happening, I'll be estatic and amazed at your foresight. But you have better chance of winning the lottery than the Chiefs do of getting the Eagles, Packers, or any other of those other teams to make a trade like that.

EDIT: And Coach is right, as soon as we get a rookie scale, you'll see a whole lot more trading in the top-5.

balto
03-30-2009, 01:14 AM
B.J. is the SAME type of player Dorsey was in College!!! I do not see BJ doing any better then Dorsey(he could gain 15 pounds in one night).

Our best chance is to have Tank play NT... You say Tank doe snot have the motor to play NT, but honestly I felt Tank looked better then Dorsey last year, but ya Dorsey will probably end up being the better player. Also, Tank came out of college about 20 pounds heavier then he is now AND all the mocks talked about him being drafted to play NT and I believe was the TOP NT in the draft. HE lost some weight to play in the 4-3 better.

What we need most is a DE/OLB. A guy that can go down in a 4-3 as DE then get up and play OLB in a 3-4.

We also need a "ok" 3-4 DE, but since we will probably be playing BOTH 3-4 AND 4-3 we probably should NOT spend a HIGH draft pick on a guy that will only play when we are set up in a 3-4 at DE.

I agree I think it will be REALLY hard to trade down...

So lets look at a draft with no trades.

1) Brown "DE/OLB"
3) Wood "C"
4) McKillop "MLB"
5) Will Johnson "3-4 DE"
6) Boone "RT"
7) Curtis Taylor "S"
7) Chase Patton "QB"

KottkeKU
03-30-2009, 02:04 AM
I would not be opposed to taking Curry at no.3

**however, i wouldnt be surprised to see us trade down a few spots to someone who really wanted Curry (hes the best defensive player in the draft and someone might swap 1st round picks and throw in their 3rd rounder for the rights to Curry)**

which leaves us with a top 10-15 pick in which we draft Raji (i dont think he will go top 5...top 8 maybe), Everette Brown, Or one of the USC linebackers

and an extra 3rd round pick which we can get an OL with...and use the other 3rd round pick on best linebacker available...

which leaves us with a hole or two on the defensive line...im thinking Dorsey=DE, Tyler = NT, and ? = DE

I also would not be opposed to taking Raji with no.3....NE reached last year for Mayo and he turned out great....maybe if we reach for Raji, he will turn out a solid DL which we have needed for ages...

jmlamerson
03-30-2009, 10:57 AM
B.J. is the SAME type of player Dorsey was in College!!! I do not see BJ doing any better then Dorsey(he could gain 15 pounds in one night).

Wow. No, Dorsey and Raji are completely opposite types of DTs. Dorsey is designed to play the gap and get pressure on the QB. Raji is a run stuffer and pocket collapser. It's the difference between Warren Sapp and Vince Wilfork.

You're dreaming if you think Dorsey can ever play NT in the NFL, no matter how much weight he puts on. And Tank got blown up all last year going one-on-one with OGs. Maybe he lost weight because of Herm and Gunther's stupidity, but that doesn't change the fact that he's not currently capable of handling the position.


What we need most is a DE/OLB. A guy that can go down in a 4-3 as DE then get up and play OLB in a 3-4.

No, we don't. A hybrid DE/OLB would be very nice to have, sure, but it isn't our most pressing need.

Our most pressing needs are big guys to protect the QB and big guys to stop the run. We don't have enough of the first and we have none of the second. Get guys who can stop the run, and the sacks will follow. It isn't the other way around.


So lets look at a draft with no trades.

1) Brown "DE/OLB"
3) Wood "C"
4) McKillop "MLB"
5) Will Johnson "3-4 DE"
6) Boone "RT"
7) Curtis Taylor "S"
7) Chase Patton "QB"

Good draft, except that we don't need Chase Patton (we have our young starter in Cassel and our young project in Thigpen), and I'd replace Brown with Raji.

Coach
03-30-2009, 06:00 PM
I tend to be more in Balto's campo on this issue. I'm interested to see if Tank can play NT. Dorsey is a 3-gap DT who will not flourish at NT though.

I think the Chiefs should address the anemic pass rush with the 1st pick. They will likely get a really good RT with their 3rd round or 4th round pick. They already spent a 1st rounder last year on a LT. They have Waters at LG and Goff is now at RT. They should be able to plug someone else in at C.

This team finished 31st in the NFL in defense last year and set a record for futility in sacks. It needs to be addressed early and often in this draft.

chief31
03-30-2009, 06:42 PM
I tend to be more in Balto's campo on this issue. I'm interested to see if Tank can play NT. Dorsey is a 3-gap DT who will not flourish at NT though.

I think the Chiefs should address the anemic pass rush with the 1st pick. They will likely get a really good RT with their 3rd round or 4th round pick. They already spent a 1st rounder last year on a LT. They have Waters at LG and Goff is now at RT. They should be able to plug someone else in at C.

This team finished 31st in the NFL in defense last year and set a record for futility in sacks. It needs to be addressed early and often in this draft.

I agree that the defense has some major holes. Just noy as many as most seem to think.

I place alot of the blame for last seasons defense on coaching. Herm's refusal to stray from the "Tampa-2" concept and Gunther's willingness to continue to try and run it with what was there.

Player-wise, I think that it was three players that caused alot of others to look bad.

1.) Jared Allen. The fact that noone else was even able to sniff the QB all year was easily the most noticable problem last season. And Hali should not have been expected to fill that role.

2.) Tank Tyler. I am not labelling Tank as a failure yet, but he failed an aweful lot last season. You have to be able to stand your ground better than Tank did last year. I hope he has learned a few things from that.

3.) Jared Page. I know alot of us like him, because he sometimes winds-up in the right place, when there is a bad pass, but he frequently misses big tackle opportunities, and regularly obstructs other defenders from making tackles.

It is pretty tough to make tackles when you have to avoid blockers. But far more difficult when you have to avoid blockers, your own DTs, and your own FS.

Having gotten Goff is a very big step for what I feel the offense needed. I definitely feel alot better now, than I did one year ago.

But I am still hopeful that we will be getting some more O-line help, somewhere.

jmlamerson
03-30-2009, 07:38 PM
I tend to be more in Balto's campo on this issue. I'm interested to see if Tank can play NT. Dorsey is a 3-gap DT who will not flourish at NT though.

I think the Chiefs should address the anemic pass rush with the 1st pick. They will likely get a really good RT with their 3rd round or 4th round pick. They already spent a 1st rounder last year on a LT. They have Waters at LG and Goff is now at RT. They should be able to plug someone else in at C.

This team finished 31st in the NFL in defense last year and set a record for futility in sacks. It needs to be addressed early and often in this draft.

The sack stat jumps out, I know, and it is the one every is currently fixated on. But everyone keeps forgetting how bad our run defense is, and was even with JA in the lineup in 2007. We gave up 131/yards a game on the ground in 2007 and 159/game in 2008, both years ranked at or near the bottom of the league. The reason is because we have a bunch of Cover 2 undersized DTs who get manhandled and can't draw a double team.

And I blame our lack of pass rush on the fact that our DTs couldn't draw a double team more than any other reason. We need a space eating DT so very, very badly to defense both the run and the pass. Even if Dorsey were the next Warren Sapp, it wouldn't do us any good unless we get some size in the middle of the field to draw a double team or two.

I'm with chief31 on Tank. Wake me when he shows he can actually do anything in this league. Also Page - who is about the opposite of a 3-4 FS, BTW.

I think the most underrated bad move by Herm was cutting Napo. Like him or hate him, he was a real MLB and could make a tackle.

Look, I know no one wants to spend another high pick on DT when we've spent so many over the past decade, including a top-5 pick last year. But unless we have a real NT/DT for the middle of the field, it doesn't matter if we get Freeney on one side and Peppers on the other. Teams will run all over us, control the clock, wear down our defense, and we'll be a perennial 4-win or less team.

fairladyZ
03-30-2009, 07:57 PM
What about Raji's teammate? i forgot his name but i've seen his name tossed around a few times. Just as good as raji and projected in the 3rd round? EDIT Ron Brace.

I'm so far off teh Raji bandwagon. The guy does not impress me at all. i don't like his attitude. I haven't seen anything from him. everyone brags about the senior bowl and i watched the replay on NFL network and saw nothing from him.

I say Orakpo/Curry with #3 pick. Raji's teammate or OL with #3 pick.

Edit #2 an overview of Ron Brace
Overview Teammate BJ Raji received more attention than Brace, who is a stout run defender in his own right. A second-team All-ACC selection in 2008 after earning honorable mention in 2007 -- when Raji was academically ineligible -- Brace isn't going to provide much in terms of statistical production. In fact, Brace's combined statistics from his two all-conference seasons led to numbers that some of the other highly ranked defensive tackles enjoyed in just one season: 54 tackles, 18.5 tackles for loss and 5.5 sacks. Brace might lack name recognition and explosive burst, but his stout frame, lower-body strength and versatility could make him a mid-round value come draft day.



Analysis
Positives: Square-framed, naturally large man. ... Surprising initial quickness off the snap to disrupt the play before it has a chance to begin. ... Good lateral quickness to slide down the line. ... Good use of hands to slap away the blockers' attempts to control him. ... Good overall strength, especially in his lower body, to hold up at the point. ... Can anchor against the double-team and flashes the ability to split. ... Able to close if given a free lane. ... Recognizes the action quickly and can slide off the block onto the runner as he goes by. ... Versatile defender capable of projecting as a zero-, one- or three-technique at the next level.

Negatives: Only "phone booth" quickness. ... Requires a free lane to close on the quarterback and isn't going to provide significant interior pass rush. ... Marginal effort and ability in pursuit. ... Flanked by a better prospect in Raji and often faces only one blocker. ... Struggled with a recurring back injury in 2008. ... Concern over back injury only heightened considering his heavy build and potential to allow his weight to get out of control.

yashi
03-30-2009, 10:16 PM
1. Raji
3. Loadholt (RT)
4. Brandon Williams (3-4 Pass Rusher)
5.
6. Ra'shon Harris (3-4 DE, 6'4" 298 lbs)
7.
7.

or

1. Curry
3. Loadholt (RT)
4. Sammie Lee Hill (NT, 6'4" 329 lbs)
5.
6. Ra'shon Harris (3-4 DE, 6'4" 298 lbs)
7.
7.

or

1. Curry
3. Ron Brace (NT)
4. Rashad Jennings (Power RB)
5.
6. Ra'shon Harris (3-4 DE, 6'4" 298 lbs)
7.
7.

I do love the 3rd one, but I think it's the least likely to be possible. I think Ron Brace goes in the 2nd round to the Broncos. They need an NT as much as we do. Jennings probably goes earlier too...

Coach
03-31-2009, 12:04 AM
What about Raji's teammate? i forgot his name but i've seen his name tossed around a few times. Just as good as raji and projected in the 3rd round? EDIT Ron Brace.

I'm so far off teh Raji bandwagon. The guy does not impress me at all. i don't like his attitude. I haven't seen anything from him. everyone brags about the senior bowl and i watched the replay on NFL network and saw nothing from him.

I say Orakpo/Curry with #3 pick. Raji's teammate or OL with #3 pick.

Edit #2 an overview of Ron Brace
Overview Teammate BJ Raji received more attention than Brace, who is a stout run defender in his own right. A second-team All-ACC selection in 2008 after earning honorable mention in 2007 -- when Raji was academically ineligible -- Brace isn't going to provide much in terms of statistical production. In fact, Brace's combined statistics from his two all-conference seasons led to numbers that some of the other highly ranked defensive tackles enjoyed in just one season: 54 tackles, 18.5 tackles for loss and 5.5 sacks. Brace might lack name recognition and explosive burst, but his stout frame, lower-body strength and versatility could make him a mid-round value come draft day.



Analysis
Positives: Square-framed, naturally large man. ... Surprising initial quickness off the snap to disrupt the play before it has a chance to begin. ... Good lateral quickness to slide down the line. ... Good use of hands to slap away the blockers' attempts to control him. ... Good overall strength, especially in his lower body, to hold up at the point. ... Can anchor against the double-team and flashes the ability to split. ... Able to close if given a free lane. ... Recognizes the action quickly and can slide off the block onto the runner as he goes by. ... Versatile defender capable of projecting as a zero-, one- or three-technique at the next level.

Negatives: Only "phone booth" quickness. ... Requires a free lane to close on the quarterback and isn't going to provide significant interior pass rush. ... Marginal effort and ability in pursuit. ... Flanked by a better prospect in Raji and often faces only one blocker. ... Struggled with a recurring back injury in 2008. ... Concern over back injury only heightened considering his heavy build and potential to allow his weight to get out of control.

I agree about Ron Brace. The perfect scenario might look like:
1st. Curry/E. Brown/Orapko
3rd. Brace
4th. LB or C