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Vanilla Garilla
04-25-2009, 11:14 AM
I was just looking at all the mock drafts today, and nearly everyone has the LSU DE Tyson Jackson being the Chiefs pick.

My question is, how the heck did this guy rise so fast, and where did everyone get this information that the Chiefs are probably going to pick him? Its just strange, because 2 days ago nearly everyone had Curry on the board for the Chiefs.

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 11:28 AM
I was just looking at all the mock drafts today, and nearly everyone has the LSU DE Tyson Jackson being the Chiefs pick.

My question is, how the heck did this guy rise so fast, and where did everyone get this information that the Chiefs are probably going to pick him? Its just strange, because 2 days ago nearly everyone had Curry on the board for the Chiefs.

Because everyone realized that the market is skewed. While most teams would pick Curry at 3 based on talent, they aren't going to pay $10M to $12M a year for a LB that doesn't rush the passer. They can't. A team that ties up a sizable portion of its cap in players like that will be in cap hell and stay at the bottom. And yes, I know 2010 is uncapped, but owners can't plan their strategy based on that.

yashi
04-25-2009, 11:42 AM
I'm just not a fan of Jackson that high.. I think the projection manifested from the report that Chiefs management is very high on him, which I think could be BS also because Pioli is as tight lipped as they come. I don't picture him giving away any such indication.

Drafting Jackson 3rd effectively means we took 3-4 DEs in the top 5 two straight years. That makes no sense to me. I like him a lot and think he's a good fit, but 3rd overall? Neither LB or 3-4 DE is a position you want to take in the top 5, but if we're going to take one, why not take the best player in the draft over a guy who is a mid first rounder talent on most boards?

Jackson sure as hell better live up to the Richard Seymour comparison if we draft him at 3.

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Jackson sure as hell better live up to the Richard Seymour comparison if we draft him at 3.

That's like saying Curry better be as good at DT if we draft him at 3.

And its disingenuous to say we've drafted two 3-4 DEs in the past two years. Dorsey is an undersized 4-3 DT, not a 3-4 DE (yet). We may try to convert him, but don't pretend he's something he isn't.

pbatrucker
04-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Because everyone realized that the market is skewed. While most teams would pick Curry at 3 based on talent, they aren't going to pay $10M to $12M a year for a LB that doesn't rush the passer. They can't. A team that ties up a sizable portion of its cap in players like that will be in cap hell and stay at the bottom. And yes, I know 2010 is uncapped, but owners can't plan their strategy based on that.
:11: It's only speculation that Curry can't rush the passer( most people thinks he can). Anyway what is the differance of paying all that money to a LB that doesn"t rush the passer or paying a run stuffing DE who is not a pass rusher the same money?
My problem with Jackson(it might not make any differance) is he had his best year as a sophmore. The last two years have been a lot less productive. Will he be a good pro, probally, but he probally will not be be more than a three to five sack DE in the pro's.
Almost anyone we pick will help us, we still have alot of holes to fill.
:bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 11:51 AM
:11: It's only speculation that Curry can't rush the passer( most people thinks he can). Anyway what is the differance of paying all that money to a LB that doesn"t rush the passer or paying a run stuffing DE who is not a pass rusher the same money?
My problem with Jackson(it might not make any differance) is he had his best year as a sophmore. The last two years have been a lot less productive. Will he be a good pro, probally, but he probally will not be be more than a three to five sack DE in the pro's.
Almost anyone we pick will help us, we still have alot of holes to fill.
:bananen_smilies046:

What? Most people do not think Curry can rush the passer! Just because fans want it to be so doesn't make it so.

Curry is a prototypical 4-3 MLB who can move to ILB in a 3-4. I think he's immensely talented, but don't pretend he's something he's not.

You draft a 3-4 DE sooner than a MLB/ILB because it is harder to find a 3-4 DE.

pbatrucker
04-25-2009, 11:56 AM
What? Most people do not think Curry can rush the passer! Just because fans want it to be so doesn't make it so.

Curry is a prototypical 4-3 MLB who can move to ILB in a 3-4. I think he's immensely talented, but don't pretend he's something he's not.

You draft a 3-4 DE sooner than a MLB/ILB because it is harder to find a 3-4 DE.
we'll see in a few hours. If everyone thought like you, we'd pick Raji, since 3-4 NT is the hardest position to fill.
:welcome:

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 12:04 PM
we'll see in a few hours. If everyone thought like you, we'd pick Raji, since 3-4 NT is the hardest position to fill.
:welcome:

I agree that we should pick Raji! I've been saying it for months. But it seems that Pioli/Haley don't like him as much as I do.

I just hope we trade with the Skins (swap picks and we get Cooley) and move to 13. If Curry doesn't go to us at 3, there is a pretty decent chance he could drop that far.

yashi
04-25-2009, 12:07 PM
What? Most people do not think Curry can rush the passer! Just because fans want it to be so doesn't make it so.

I don't think that's true... at least based on what I've read a lot. I think untested with potential is a better term. I mean he had 9.5 sacks in college as a guy who was rarely asked to rush the QB. His 45.5 TFL shows that he has the ability to get into the backfield.

I'm bored, so I'll entertain...


http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/olb/Aaron-Curry.php

Strengths:
Possesses a terrific blend of size and bulk...Exceptional speed, quickness and athleticism...Very physical and tough...Excellent strength and power...Extremely aggressive...Outstanding instincts and awareness...Offers a lot of versatility...Reliable tackler who will deliver the big hit...Really uses his hands well...Does a nice job of taking on and shedding blockers...Superb pass rusher and blitzer...Has sideline-to-sideline range...Will attack and fill against the run...Comfortable in space...Can match up and make plays in coverage...Has a lot of experience...Durable and never missed a game due to injury...Smart...Hard worker...Team leader...Super productive.

Weaknesses:
Can be too aggressive at times and will overpursue...Not quite as tall as you'd prefer...Pass rush repertoire is limited...Marginal change of direction skills...May have some trouble when it comes to recognition in coverage....Is not particularly fluid when he is forced to flip his hips.


Aaron Curry - Wake Forest - DraftTracker - ESPN (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/player?id=23926)

Has limited experience as a pass rusher. Needs to become more polished in terms of pass rush moves. He does have potential in this area, though. Shows good instincts in timing his blitzes. Explosive enough to turn the corner at the NFL level and shows ideal closing speed. Shows good body control and can recover when gets knocked off balance. Active and extremely strong hands; can rip off of blocks quickly.

Aaron Curry, 2009 NFL Draft Prospect (http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2009_NFL_Draft/aaron_curry.htm)

I don't see that he has many weaknesses at all except maybe he needs to develop more pass rushing moves, but he wasn't asked to do that much at Wake Forest.

http://www.walterfootball.com/pro2009acurry.php

Strengths: Elite size and strength ... Solid timed speed in the 4.6 range ... Very solid production over past three seasons ... Great instincts; does not hesitate or second guess the development of the play ... Playmaker who makes clutch tackles on third down and jars the ball loose ... Is a threat to rush the quarterback ... Works through the trash to get to the ball-carrier ... Aggressive ... Rarely misses tackles ... Textbook usage with his hands ... Strong at the point of attack ... Takes sound, consistent angles to the football ... Will take on a block ... Extreme versatility to play 4-3 SAM and 4-3 or 3-4 ILB, but can also occasionally play 3-4 OLB ... Leads by example.
I think the general consensus is that he wasn't asked to rush the passer in college and is undeveloped in terms of pass rushing moves, but that there is certainly potential.

pbatrucker
04-25-2009, 12:18 PM
I agree that we should pick Raji! I've been saying it for months. But it seems that Pioli/Haley don't like him as much as I do.

I just hope we trade with the Skins (swap picks and we get Cooley) and move to 13. If Curry doesn't go to us at 3, there is a pretty decent chance he could drop that far.
I've been saying all wee, something is in the works as far as trading down and I believe Dorsey goes to Altlanta. Personally I don't like Raji. If we pick up a 2nd, I'd rather grab Ron Brace.
Curry will be one player if we don't draft him, everyone will wish we had. Most people are saying he is the complete package, even though he hasn't been asked to rush the QB, he will be good at it.
The hybrid, DE/LB's are the hardest to find. There are quite a few pass rushers, not all can play the run and very few can drop back in coverage. Because the Chiefs gave up almost 6 yds per rushing attempt and were terrible against the pass also, we need to take what is considered to be a can't miss player. IMO and it's my opion that would be Curry.
:11:

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 12:44 PM
I've been saying all wee, something is in the works as far as trading down and I believe Dorsey goes to Altlanta. Personally I don't like Raji. If we pick up a 2nd, I'd rather grab Ron Brace.
Curry will be one player if we don't draft him, everyone will wish we had. Most people are saying he is the complete package, even though he hasn't been asked to rush the QB, he will be good at it.
The hybrid, DE/LB's are the hardest to find. There are quite a few pass rushers, not all can play the run and very few can drop back in coverage. Because the Chiefs gave up almost 6 yds per rushing attempt and were terrible against the pass also, we need to take what is considered to be a can't miss player. IMO and it's my opion that would be Curry.
:11:

My only question is how Curry will pick up sacks playng ILB. We have DJ and Vrabel as our starting OLBs. Curry would be lined up next to Zach Thomas inside. He wouldn't be asked to be the DE/OLB hybrid you're suggesting he would be.

yashi
04-25-2009, 12:54 PM
OK... I've had a chance to cool down a bit now and I've decided that if we end up with a player by the name of Curry, Raji, or Jackson, I'll be happy. One thing I overlooked is that taking Jackson screws the Broncos since he is clearly one of the top 2 players they're targetting in this draft.

Two birds, one stone. And I guess 5 technique DEs (of which we have none) are pretty vital for any LB to succeed in the 3-4.

Coach
04-25-2009, 01:19 PM
I'm just not a fan of Jackson that high.. I think the projection manifested from the report that Chiefs management is very high on him, which I think could be BS also because Pioli is as tight lipped as they come. I don't picture him giving away any such indication.


Exactly folks. Pioli doesn't say anything for weeks and now suddenly 1 week before the draft he decides he will leak who he wants to draft????? Wake up, because you know better. Pioli is going to leak whomever he thinks brings the most trade value to the pick. I guess we'll see how this plays out in about 3 hours. But leaking who the Chiefs are going to take just isn't a Pioli move. I think we can all agree on that.

Drunker Hillbilly
04-25-2009, 01:20 PM
What? Most people do not think Curry can rush the passer! Just because fans want it to be so doesn't make it so.

Curry is a prototypical 4-3 MLB who can move to ILB in a 3-4. I think he's immensely talented, but don't pretend he's something he's not.

You draft a 3-4 DE sooner than a MLB/ILB because it is harder to find a 3-4 DE.
I don't think that it's people don't think he is unable to rush the QB. He just wasn't asked to do so in college. I am fairly confident that he CAN. I think drafting Jackson will be a terrible mistake and may set this team back another year.

Coach
04-25-2009, 01:27 PM
Any player we take at the #3 spot, will instantly become one of the best players on the Chiefs roster IMO.

bigpoppachief
04-25-2009, 01:36 PM
Any player we take at the #3 spot, will instantly become one of the best players on the Chiefs roster IMO.


DITTO Maybe putting Jacksona dn Dorsey back together could eb a good thing lol :D

slimdagreat
04-25-2009, 01:47 PM
I agree that we should pick Raji! I've been saying it for months. But it seems that Pioli/Haley don't like him as much as I do.

I just hope we trade with the Skins (swap picks and we get Cooley) and move to 13. If Curry doesn't go to us at 3, there is a pretty decent chance he could drop that far.

The problem with picking Raji is that you are basically pretending the Dorsey pick didn't happen last season.

Even though it wasn't on Pioli's watch, they are still paying Dorsey a **** load of money to be the DT, and his skill set doesn't translate well to being moved over to DE.

slimdagreat
04-25-2009, 01:49 PM
I hope this all a smoke screen to entice a trade offer for one of the Mark Sanchez suitors.

Honestly I don't have a problem with taking Jackson if its after pick 10, and if KC is posturing to get somebody to trade up for Sanchez and we can net a 2nd rounder in the process, or a 3rd, and still get Jackson I say go for it.

northwest
04-25-2009, 02:19 PM
Jackson wouldnt' even start on a team like the Pats, and that bothers me.

Vanilla Garilla
04-25-2009, 02:25 PM
1 hour 35 minutes till game time. I dont think it will take long to get to the Chiefs pick, maybe around 10-20 minutes at the most.

Canada
04-25-2009, 02:26 PM
1 hour 35 minutes till game time. I dont think it will take long to get to the Chiefs pick, maybe around 10-20 minutes at the most.

Woo Hoo,Chiefs pick at 420 pm!! :D

slimdagreat
04-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Jackson wouldnt' even start on a team like the Pats, and that bothers me.

That's terrible logic.


The Pat's have pro bowler Richard Seymore and potential pro-bowler Ty Warren.

Going by that logic one could say all of the QBs in this draft suck because none of them would start on the Patriots, or that Crabtree sucks because he wouldn't start for the Pats.

Coach
04-25-2009, 02:32 PM
1 hour 35 minutes till game time. I dont think it will take long to get to the Chiefs pick, maybe around 10-20 minutes at the most.

I think the Chiefs will take every second possible just in case a last second trade is available.

And if rumors are true of the Chiefs taking Tyson Jackson, I wouldn't be shocked if the Chiefs didn't even go to the podium until after Cinci makes their pick, maybe longer. Heck they might even wait to pick at #7 in front of Jacksonville, so they could try to leverage Sanchez again. Long shot, but not completely out of the question.

Vanilla Garilla
04-25-2009, 02:47 PM
I think the Chiefs will take every second possible just in case a last second trade is available.

And if rumors are true of the Chiefs taking Tyson Jackson, I wouldn't be shocked if the Chiefs didn't even go to the podium until after Cinci makes their pick, maybe longer. Heck they might even wait to pick at #7 in front of Jacksonville, so they could try to leverage Sanchez again. Long shot, but not completely out of the question.

Makes sense Coach, but I really do not think Jackson should be so high on the Chiefs list. I would rather have Monroe, Smith, Curry, or Raji instead...

bigpoppachief
04-25-2009, 03:24 PM
Makes sense Coach, but I really do not think Jackson should be so high on the Chiefs list. I would rather have Monroe, Smith, Curry, or Raji instead...


Honestly I would ratehr have Raji in stead of Jackson ebcause I think Raji would help Dorsey better

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Not that the so called experts know everything but IMO when the guy that all the mock drafts have you taking is among the "others" listed when it comes to that position, he is not the pick you should be making. If they do take Jackson I think it will strictly be a money based pick!

dbolan
04-25-2009, 04:33 PM
Crappy pick. Not pleased at all

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 04:39 PM
i'll take Pioli's and HAley's evaluation of our piss poor defense and addressing our biggest need on defenseive line before taking a glamour pick like Curry to underperform and be nothing more then a glorified Derrick Johnson.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 04:41 PM
You will change your mind after he has 1 sack!!!!!!! Only had a few last year!

hometeam
04-25-2009, 04:43 PM
has 18.5 sacks in 3 yaers with a dominant team against poor competition :(

booooooooooooooooooo

yashi
04-25-2009, 04:44 PM
Not a sack guy... he's a 5 technique run stuffing 3-4 DE.

Hard to be excited about an unsexy pick like that.. hopefully in a few years he'll be our Seymour or Ty Warren.

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 04:46 PM
You will change your mind after he has 1 sack!!!!!!! Only had a few last year!

in a 3-4 its not about the DE's getting sacks, please read about it! thats why they have the rush LB. DE,NT,DE are space eaters that free up your LBs to wreck havoc. its why guys like Merriman, HArrison, Joey Porter, Suggs get all the highlights

mac1024
04-25-2009, 04:49 PM
there's two mentality in a draft:
1) you draft the best available player
2) you draft by needs

I can understand the fact that they want a DL, but please explain to me why they drafted Jackson when the best DL where still available (Raji and Orakpo)

you're sure King Carl is gone!!!!

jap1
04-25-2009, 04:50 PM
Not a sack guy... he's a 5 technique run stuffing 3-4 DE.

Hard to be excited about an unsexy pick like that.. hopefully in a few years he'll be our Seymour or Ty Warren.

I am excited, because in my opinion that was our greatest need, more so than a pass rusher. We could not stop the run to save our lives. Our inability to stop the run, put the opposing O in a position that made it easier to pass. We stop the run on 1st and 2nd down, then we know they will be passing on 3rd and long, and will be more susceptible to the blitz.

I just wish we could have traded back to around 10 or so and made this same pick. Less $$ and more picks, oh well, our D just improved a lot.

jap1
04-25-2009, 04:53 PM
there's two mentality in a draft:
1) you draft the best available player
2) you draft by needs

I can understand the fact that they want a DL, but please explain to me why they drafted Jackson when the best DL where still available (Raji and Orakpo)

you're sure King Carl is gone!!!!

Orakpo is a 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. He doesnt project to be a top 10 pick 3-4 OLB in my opinion. Curry would fill that role better, so Orakpo wouldnt make sense.

Jackson LOVES football passionately. Raji does not have the same passion for the game, or at least it is not as obvious. Plus maybe they saw something in Tank Tyler at NT in the minicamp.

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 04:54 PM
I can understand the fact that they want a DL, but please explain to me why they drafted Jackson when the best DL where still available (Raji and Orakpo)

you're sure King Carl is gone!!!!

my guess is Raji's character issues (academic ineligibility in 2007 doesnt seem to fit the Pioli definition of smart football players)

my other guess on orakpo is that he is a tweener (OLB/DE hybrid rusher) and before you reach for a tweener/edge rusher is you solidify your line to allow them to flourish

northwest
04-25-2009, 04:56 PM
the more i think about it really, the more they probably made the right decision. it's easy for all the fans to fall in love with the more exciting players, but a player like jackson could really make our defense more sound. pioli knows a lot more about it than any of us do.

Hayvern
04-25-2009, 04:56 PM
I can't wait until Tyson proves all the doubters wrong.

For you guys that are unhappy with this pick. Let's just remember that we are still dealing with the idiocy that has been the mangements in Kansas City for the last three years.

Last year we could not stop the rush, nor could we put pressure on the QB. We had to make this pick, I think Jackson is the right pick for us today.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 04:58 PM
in a 3-4 its not about the DE's getting sacks, please read about it! thats why they have the rush LB. DE,NT,DE are space eaters that free up your LBs to wreck havoc. its why guys like Merriman, HArrison, Joey Porter, Suggs get all the highlights
Thanks for the lesson!!!! NO SH!T!!!!!!! My point being that when your entire defense is crap, you should take the best player on the board which oh by the way, happens to be a defensive player! Trust me, this guy will fall into the "he's alright" catagory. No possibility of being a stand out player!!!!! Between a 15 and 25 pick on most boards that even have him on their board!!

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 05:00 PM
At least the Raiders drafted a BUST!!!!

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 05:03 PM
Thanks for the lesson!!!! NO SH!T!!!!!!! My point being that when your entire defense is crap, you should take the best player on the board which oh by the way, happens to be a defensive player! Trust me, this guy will fall into the "he's alright" catagory. No possibility of being a stand out player!!!!! Between a 15 and 25 pick on most boards that even have him on their board!!

When you take the best avalible player but he has garbage in front of him what good does it do the team if he can't produce? PLease follow simple logic, its a team sport, you need a solid front for ILB's like Curry to flourish. Your obivous love affair with Curry and all the hype has blinded you to the basic neccessities which allow for a player like Curry to play with any sort of efficency

KottkeKU
04-25-2009, 05:20 PM
this guy is going to make everyone eat their words....just wait.

Three7s
04-25-2009, 05:38 PM
Thanks for the lesson!!!! NO SH!T!!!!!!! My point being that when your entire defense is crap, you should take the best player on the board which oh by the way, happens to be a defensive player! Trust me, this guy will fall into the "he's alright" catagory. No possibility of being a stand out player!!!!! Between a 15 and 25 pick on most boards that even have him on their board!!
Sounds like you just described Curry to me, he has overrated written all over him.

Ryfo18
04-25-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't understand why everyone is so down on Jackson. We allowed close to 160 rushing yards per game last year. This makes the rest of the team worse b/c you overcommit trying to stop the run and you get burned by the pass. Jackson is a run stopper, and that's what we need. Did anyone else have any confidence last year when we faced third and short? All of you think that sacks win games. Sure it helps, but being able to consistently stop the run is a blessing. Look at the Steelers, they gave up 80 rush yards a game, and it makes the rest of their defense that much better. Plus, having someone like Jackson who can take up two guys on the line allows the rushing LB more shots at the QB. This is an excellent pick for the Chiefs, and it also puts Dorsey on a DL that he is familiar with (remember, they played together).


The player with the best name, is not always the best pick (Curry). He does not help make our defense as a whole better than Jackson does, and I think we will see that this season when our rushing YPG allowed goes down by 40-50 yards.

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 05:51 PM
Richard Seymour 6th pick in the 1st round 2004 to New England

6'6
310
DE

College Stats:

223 tackles (106 solos),
9.5 Sacks
25.5 tackles for losses
35 quarterback pressures.

In the Pro's

5 Pro Bowl selection (2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006)
3 First-team All-Pro selection (2003, 2004, 2005)
1 Second-team All-Pro (2006)

Tyson Jackson 3rd pick in the 1st round 2009 to the Chiefs

6'4 1/2
296
DE

College Stats:

122 tackles (53 solos)
18 pass deflections
1 interception,
2 forced fumbles
2 fumble recoveries
18.5 sacks
27 stops for losses
30 quarterback pressures.

Correlation? I think so. Good pick Pioli.

jap1
04-25-2009, 06:00 PM
So right now this is how I see our DL:

Jackson / Tyler / Dorsey

backups:
DE: McBride, Hali, Boone
NT: Edwards

LBs:

DJ / Thomas / Beisel or Williams / Vrabel

I think this is a pretty good lineup, especially with more picks to come.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 06:51 PM
When you take the best avalible player but he has garbage in front of him what good does it do the team if he can't produce? PLease follow simple logic, its a team sport, you need a solid front for ILB's like Curry to flourish. Your obivous love affair with Curry and all the hype has blinded you to the basic neccessities which allow for a player like Curry to play with any sort of efficency
I'll bet you right now that Jackson won't be the stand out at his position next year.

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 07:00 PM
I'll bet you right now that Jackson won't be the stand out at his position next year.

That's a really bold statement. You mean he won't be better than Seymour or Aaron Smith in his rookie year? Wow.

He will be the best rookie 3-4 DE.

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 07:02 PM
I'll bet you right now that Jackson won't be the stand out at his position next year.

I bet he won't either. But I never expect DE's or DL in general transitioning from the College game to the NFL to have break out rookie seasons.

Thats a given. And even then I dont expect him to make stat breaking amounts of sacks. Its just not how the 34 plays out. The real test of his mettle will come in his second year.

Richard Seymour didn't have many sacks his rookie year (3.0)

Mario Williams didn't have many sacks his rookie year (4.5)

Giving a rookie one year (especially a Defensive lineman) to be 'All-Pro, Pro Bowl' caliber is hardly fair (i.e. Glenn Dorsey). His true worth comes from what isn't recorded, keeping Lineman off the LBs. If our LBS have decent to good seasons (increase over last year) then thats already a success.

slimdagreat
04-25-2009, 07:59 PM
there's two mentality in a draft:
1) you draft the best available player
2) you draft by needs

I can understand the fact that they want a DL, but please explain to me why they drafted Jackson when the best DL where still available (Raji and Orakpo)

you're sure King Carl is gone!!!!

They already have a DT in Dorsey, and Orakpo isn't a 3-4 DE.

slimdagreat
04-25-2009, 08:01 PM
Sometimes the lack of fully understanding the game in these threads baffles me.

Building a team isn't about putting a fantasy team together, its about getting guys that fit what you are trying to do and guys that fill needs.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 08:24 PM
I bet he won't either. But I never expect DE's or DL in general transitioning from the College game to the NFL to have break out rookie seasons.

Thats a given. And even then I dont expect him to make stat breaking amounts of sacks. Its just not how the 34 plays out. The real test of his mettle will come in his second year.

Richard Seymour didn't have many sacks his rookie year (3.0)

Mario Williams didn't have many sacks his rookie year (4.5)

Giving a rookie one year (especially a Defensive lineman) to be 'All-Pro, Pro Bowl' caliber is hardly fair (i.e. Glenn Dorsey). His true worth comes from what isn't recorded, keeping Lineman off the LBs. If our LBS have decent to good seasons (increase over last year) then thats already a success.
He won't be a stand out his 2nd or 3rd year either. I just think taking him at #3 was a waste of a pick. He wasn't even the player at his position in the draft for cryin out loud!!

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 08:53 PM
He won't be a stand out his 2nd or 3rd year either. I just think taking him at #3 was a waste of a pick. He wasn't even the player at his position in the draft for cryin out loud!!

Now you're treading in the territory of hypotheticals. By not thinking about this pick objectively you've already cast Jackson as a bust before he's even played his first game.

How is that even remotely fair? Your write him off because the Chiefs didn't select the player the media has been feeding us to think the Chiefs need?

I think you meant best at his position which was DE.

That can be argued.

While he wasn't the best statiscally most of the DEs in this draft are not 3-4 DEs. They're 'tweeners' DE/OLB hybrids (I.e. Everette Brown/Maybin/Orakpo OLB/DE hybrids). Chiefs needed a big physical presence in the interior to play the line and thats exactally what they got. There is a reason why Tamba Hali is being moved out of DE and into that tweener role. THe Chiefs have already stated their switching to a 3-4.

He was the best 3-4 DE prospect in this draft. Thats a fact and that's why the Chiefs took him because we obviously don't have anyone remotely close to being able to play the position on our current roster.

jb908
04-25-2009, 09:20 PM
I think this team needs to forget the idea of running a 3-4 D.

Jackson, Tyler, Dorsey, and Hali up front... That is a force to be Reckoned with this year

Three7s
04-25-2009, 09:26 PM
I think this team needs to forget the idea of running a 3-4 D.

Jackson, Tyler, Dorsey, and Hali up front... That is a force to be Reckoned with this year
You're kidding, right?

yashi
04-25-2009, 09:29 PM
I think this team needs to forget the idea of running a 3-4 D.

Jackson, Tyler, Dorsey, and Hali up front... That is a force to be Reckoned with this year

To me that looks like a team that will probably have the least sacks in the league again next season.

Drafting Jackson 3rd overall eliminates any chance of us playing 4-3 full time. He is going to be a 5 technique DE who eats space and stops the run. He'll also help open up room for LBs to get to the QB.

He'll be very good at what he does, I believe, but that won't involve racking up sacks at any point in his career.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 10:09 PM
Now you're treading in the territory of hypotheticals. By not thinking about this pick objectively you've already cast Jackson as a bust before he's even played his first game.

How is that even remotely fair? Your write him off because the Chiefs didn't select the player the media has been feeding us to think the Chiefs need?

I think you meant best at his position which was DE.

That can be argued.

While he wasn't the best statiscally most of the DEs in this draft are not 3-4 DEs. They're 'tweeners' DE/OLB hybrids (I.e. Everette Brown/Maybin/Orakpo OLB/DE hybrids). Chiefs needed a big physical presence in the interior to play the line and thats exactally what they got. There is a reason why Tamba Hali is being moved out of DE and into that tweener role. THe Chiefs have already stated their switching to a 3-4.

He was the best 3-4 DE prospect in this draft. Thats a fact and that's why the Chiefs took him because we obviously don't have anyone remotely close to being able to play the position on our current roster.
First of all I think my post says "at his position" and second, do you think I didn't watch any college football? My opinion is not based on what the media says as you stated but from what I saw on the field. I think drafting the 3rd or 4th best DE available at #3 was a waste of a pick. We passed on the best LB'r in the draft and possibly the best overall player period! Further more, I do think Jackson will be an avg at best player and yes, before he even plays one down in the NFL! I thought the same of Croyle when we picked him except I didn't think he would even be avg! I like what Pioli did with the Pats and am happy to have him but I think he sh!t the bed on this one!!

okikcfan
04-25-2009, 10:16 PM
I think this team needs to forget the idea of running a 3-4 D.

Jackson, Tyler, Dorsey, and Hali up front... That is a force to be Reckoned with this year


yea Scott, we need to talk. lol, I could see it now, I have been researching Tyson Johnson and well I kinda like him, I think he will be good for the team. I think we should all just give Haley and Pioli a chance. I don't think he should have gone so high but again, I'm just a die hard Chiefs fan. I look forward to sunday, because when we first picked Tyson I felt as if I had just been :bananen_smilies083: , lol

Chiefster
04-25-2009, 10:25 PM
First of all I think my post says "at his position" and second, do you think I didn't watch any college football? My opinion is not based on what the media says as you stated but from what I saw on the field. I think drafting the 3rd or 4th best DE available at #3 was a waste of a pick. We passed on the best LB'r in the draft and possibly the best overall player period! Further more, I do think Jackson will be an avg at best player and yes, before he even plays one down in the NFL! I thought the same of Croyle when we picked him except I didn't think he would even be avg! I like what Pioli did with the Pats and am happy to have him but I think he sh!t the bed on this one!!

:lol: :lol:

Yeah, I wasn't overly enthused or impressed with our one and only pick today either, but then again I'm no expert. I think that not taking either Curry or Crabtree in the first round is a mistake. JMHO

Three7s
04-25-2009, 10:29 PM
First of all I think my post says "at his position" and second, do you think I didn't watch any college football? My opinion is not based on what the media says as you stated but from what I saw on the field. I think drafting the 3rd or 4th best DE available at #3 was a waste of a pick. We passed on the best LB'r in the draft and possibly the best overall player period! Further more, I do think Jackson will be an avg at best player and yes, before he even plays one down in the NFL! I thought the same of Croyle when we picked him except I didn't think he would even be avg! I like what Pioli did with the Pats and am happy to have him but I think he sh!t the bed on this one!!
All you're doing is going with the hype, it's a joke. People said the same thing about Dorsey, we all know how that turned out. Just admit that you have NO clue who's the "best player in the draft" and I know that Curry is a Derrick Johnson clone, and that's not a good thing. Drafting him would've been a BUST in the making.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 10:43 PM
All you're doing is going with the hype, it's a joke. People said the same thing about Dorsey, we all know how that turned out. Just admit that you have NO clue who's the "best player in the draft" and I know that Curry is a Derrick Johnson clone, and that's not a good thing. Drafting him would've been a BUST in the making.
I'll admit your a joke! How can you say Jackson was the right pick? Not even the best available at his position! I guess next you will tell us all you had Jackson slated at a top 5 pick right? Wake up dude! I'm not even saying Curry is the best player in the draft but at least he was the best at his position.

Three7s
04-25-2009, 10:45 PM
I'll admit your a joke! How can you say Jackson was the right pick? Not even the best available at his position! I guess next you will tell us all you had Jackson slated at a top 5 pick right? Wake up dude!
Did I say that he was the best pick? We're not drafting a pass rusher, son. I think someone said earlier that in a 3-4, you get guys on the line to free up the LBs.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 10:50 PM
Did I say that he was the best pick? We're not drafting a pass rusher, son. I think someone said earlier that in a 3-4, you get guys on the line to free up the LBs.
Ur right bud! Outstanding pick at #3 overall!!! You can't find 1 person outside of Scott Pioli or Todd Haley that thinks Tyson Jackson was worth the #3 pick! There's a reason he wasn't in NY!!!!

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 10:53 PM
First of all I think my post says "at his position"

I clarified that in my post.


second, do you think I didn't watch any college football? My opinion is not based on what the media says as you stated but from what I saw on the field.

Never said you didn't watch any college football. But are you explicitlly stating you've watched Aaron Curry/Wake Forest in every game and followed him game in and game out this season?

I doubt it.

Watching Youtube highlight reels and listening to Mel Kiper/Todd McShay/Mike Mayock and other 'expert' figure heads spout off his hardly what I quantify as in depth analysis from a fans perspective.

But I can, in no way, prove this so maybe you are the biggest Demon Deacons fan in the world but I don't buy it.




I think drafting the 3rd or 4th best DE available at #3 was a waste of a pick.



Once again that is arguable. Your failed to even read my post in its entirety. He may have been the 3rd or 4th best avalible DE from a production standpoint in college in a base line 4-3 at LSU but his projected pro grade had him as the 'best' 3-4 DE in the draft.

The best. That means number 1.

The Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 and for the scheme to work they needed bigger more physical lineman then we already have to make it work. I know you know this, I'm just restating the obvious.

The 3-4 revolves around the strength of the defensive line to allow the LBs to make plays.

No line = no good. It doesnt matter if you have the best prospect in the draft.




We passed on the best LB'r in the draft and possibly the best overall player period!



Once again, hype doesn't disuade the facts.

I'll post something interesting for you to 'ponder'

Aaron Curry's College stats:

IN 49 college games he recorded:

332 Total Tackles
45.5 Tackles for loss
6 Sacks
6 INTs

Derrick Johnson's College Stats:

In 50 college games he recorded:

458 Total tackles
69 Tackles for loss
10.5 Sacks
9 INT's

Played the same position as Curry. Best LB avalible isn't worth number 3 money considering a player of superior talent went at 15.




Further more, I do think Jackson will be an avg at best player and yes, before he even plays one down in the NFL! I thought the same of Croyle when we picked him except I didn't think he would even be avg! I like what Pioli did with the Pats and am happy to have him but I think he sh!t the bed on this one!!

Now this is just inane. You believe you have some innate ability to predict busts? I don't know about you but I had the same feeling about Croyle as well; a glass canon QB out of Alabama in the 3rd round who had trouble staying healthy. Does that make me think I have some clairvoyant ability to see the future of potential NFL prospects?

No, because thats what everyone with two eyes and a modicum of sense could see in him outside of Herm.

And look where that got us.

You're tirade at the end just proves you were so caught up in the media love affair that was Aaron Curry that you ignored everything else that was possible and now that the Chiefs passed on an over hyped 4-3 LB you're all bent out of shape.

Three7s
04-25-2009, 11:02 PM
After looking at some videos of Jackson, it looks like he's gonna be pretty good at stopping the run, which is the job of a DE in a 3-4 scheme.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 11:06 PM
I clarified that in my post.



Never said you didn't watch any college football. But are you explicitlly stating you've watched Aaron Curry/Wake Forest in every game and followed him game in and game out this season?

I doubt it.

Watching Youtube highlight reels and listening to Mel Kiper/Todd McShay/Mike Mayock and other 'expert' figure heads spout off his hardly what I quantify as in depth analysis from a fans perspective.

But I can, in no way, prove this so maybe you are the biggest Demon Deacons fan in the world but I don't buy it.



Once again that is arguable. Your failed to even read my post in its entirety. He may have been the 3rd or 4th best avalible DE from a production standpoint in college in a base line 4-3 at LSU but his projected pro grade had him as the 'best' 3-4 DE in the draft.

The best. That means number 1.

The Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 and for the scheme to work they needed bigger more physical lineman then we already have to make it work. I know you know this, I'm just restating the obvious.

The 3-4 revolves around the strength of the defensive line to allow the LBs to make plays.

No line = no good. It doesnt matter if you have the best prospect in the draft.



Once again, hype doesn't disuade the facts.

I'll post something interesting for you to 'ponder'

Aaron Curry's College stats:

IN 49 college games he recorded:

332 Total Tackles
45.5 Tackles for loss
6 Sacks
6 INTs

Derrick Johnson's College Stats:

In 50 college games he recorded:

458 Total tackles
69 Tackles for loss
10.5 Sacks
9 INT's

Played the same position as Curry. Best LB avalible isn't worth number 3 money considering a player of superior talent went at 15.



Now this is just inane. You believe you have some innate ability to predict busts? I don't know about you but I had the same feeling about Croyle as well; a glass canon QB out of Alabama in the 3rd round who had trouble staying healthy. Does that make me think I have some clairvoyant ability to see the future of potential NFL prospects?

No, because thats what everyone with two eyes and a modicum of sense could see in him outside of Herm.

And look where that got us.

You're tirade at the end just proves you were so caught up in the media love affair that was Aaron Curry that you ignored everything else that was possible and now that the Chiefs passed on an over hyped 4-3 LB you're all bent out of shape.
Your an absolute comic!!! I own a sports bar and watched damn near every Wake Forest game with J.T Doxon's father. T.E for Wake. Not the biggest fan by any stretch just happen to watch a lot of games.

Can't compare DJ to Curry. DJ had a ton of help his last season at Texas. Curry was doing a lot on his own!

For you to say Brian Cushing has the same talent as Curry is a complete joke!!

As for predicting busts, no I don't claim to do that at all I just was soooooo against the Croyle pick. Obviously you weren't reading the posts on this site too much during last season because there were several here in love with Croyle!

Still my question is how can you agree with this pick when he wasn't even the best player (by most here and everywhere else) at his own position?

Three7s
04-25-2009, 11:12 PM
Your an absolute comic!!! I own a sports bar and watched damn near every Wake Forest game with J.T Doxon's father. T.E for Wake. Not the biggest fan by any stretch just happen to watch a lot of games.

Can't compare DJ to Curry. DJ had a ton of help his last season at Texas. Curry was doing a lot on his own!

For you to say Brian Cushing has the same talent as Curry is a complete joke!!

As for predicting busts, no I don't claim to do that at all I just was soooooo against the Croyle pick. Obviously you weren't reading the posts on this site too much during last season because there were several here in love with Croyle!

Still my question is how can you agree with this pick when he wasn't even the best player (by most here and everywhere else) at his own position?
He wasn't the best DE, but he was the best 3-4 DE. All in the system! I wouldn't have taken him though, I would've went OT.

N TX Dave
04-25-2009, 11:14 PM
From NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80ffc3be&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true)

3. Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/teams/kansascitychiefs/profile?team=KC) - Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU

The Chiefs pick up the best 3-4 defensive end on the board with their selection of Jackson. Though the pick was a bit of a surprise, Jackson gives the team a stout player on the edge capable of occupying multiple blockers at the point of attack.

From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2009-04-25-nfl-draft-analysis_N.htm)
3. KANSAS CITH CHIEFS: Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU
Pro analysis: The Chiefs confirm the buzz in recent days by taking Jackson with the third pick. A five-technique DE (Jackson is essentially a 3-4 end), he will anchor a K.C. defense that is transitioning to the new scheme. Jackson has been compared to New England's Richard Seymour, so it's not a shock that new K.C. GM (and former Patriots architect) Scott Pioli would want him. It is a surprise that Jackson was taken with the third overall pick as he's not likely to stuff the stat sheet or excite the fan base (think fellow former LSU DE Marcus Spears, a similar player who has played in relative anonymity in Dallas' 3-4 for years). The selection of Jackson is a pretty good indicator that the Chiefs could not find takers for their No. 3 pick.

jmlamerson
04-25-2009, 11:16 PM
From NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80ffc3be&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true)

3. Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/teams/kansascitychiefs/profile?team=KC) - Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU

The Chiefs pick up the best 3-4 defensive end on the board with their selection of Jackson. Though the pick was a bit of a surprise, Jackson gives the team a stout player on the edge capable of occupying multiple blockers at the point of attack.

From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2009-04-25-nfl-draft-analysis_N.htm)
3. KANSAS CITH CHIEFS: Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU
Pro analysis: The Chiefs confirm the buzz in recent days by taking Jackson with the third pick. A five-technique DE (Jackson is essentially a 3-4 end), he will anchor a K.C. defense that is transitioning to the new scheme. Jackson has been compared to New England's Richard Seymour, so it's not a shock that new K.C. GM (and former Patriots architect) Scott Pioli would want him. It is a surprise that Jackson was taken with the third overall pick as he's not likely to stuff the stat sheet or excite the fan base (think fellow former LSU DE Marcus Spears, a similar player who has played in relative anonymity in Dallas' 3-4 for years). The selection of Jackson is a pretty good indicator that the Chiefs could not find takers for their No. 3 pick.

USAToday has it right. The 3rd pick was too expensive to trade out of. The Jets saved $20M by waiting two slots to trade up.

Chiefster
04-25-2009, 11:22 PM
Everyone,

Disagreements are fine, all we ask is that everyone please keep it respectful.

Thanks!

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 11:22 PM
Your an absolute comic!!! I own a sports bar and watched damn near every Wake Forest game with J.T Doxon's father. T.E for Wake. Not the biggest fan by any stretch just happen to watch a lot of games.

Can't compare DJ to Curry. DJ had a ton of help his last season at Texas. Curry was doing a lot on his own!

For you to say Brian Cushing has the same talent as Curry is a complete joke!!

I didnt say Cushing was equivalent in talent, once again read the context of my comparison. DJ went 15 overall in 2005 sorry for not clarifying it for you but thats what I meant/.

And even if you want to say DJ's last season didnt count if you subtract the totals from then he still has:

328 Total Tackles
50 Tackles for loss
8.5 Sacks
8 INT's

Still statiscally better then Curry outside of Total Tackles. Once again hype vs reality and reality wins out. You can make all the greivances against Jackson you want but

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 11:25 PM
He wasn't the best DE, but he was the best 3-4 DE. All in the system! I wouldn't have taken him though, I would've went OT.
Were Dick Butkis or Lawrence Taylor the best LB's of their respective drafts or was it just the system they were in? Not comparing Curry to either of these guys obviously but I think the system when it comes to this position has less to do with it than you are claiming IMO.

Vanilla Garilla
04-25-2009, 11:27 PM
Intersesting article about the Chiefs first pick here:

Jeffri Chadiha examines the Kansas City Chiefs' first NFL draft under GM Scott Pioli - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=4100778)

Good Read!

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 11:29 PM
I didnt say Cushing was equivalent in talent, once again read the context of my comparison. DJ went 15 overall in 2005 sorry for not clarifying it for you but thats what I meant/.

And even if you want to say DJ's last season didnt count if you subtract the totals from then he still has:

328 Total Tackles
50 Tackles for loss
8.5 Sacks
8 INT's

Still statiscally better then Curry outside of Total Tackles. Once again hype vs reality and reality wins out. You can make all the greivances against Jackson you want but
I saw 15 and thought you were speaking of this years draft. My bad.

Chiefster
04-25-2009, 11:30 PM
Intersesting article about the Chiefs first pick here:

Jeffri Chadiha examines the Kansas City Chiefs' first NFL draft under GM Scott Pioli - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=4100778)

Good Read!

He does have a point regarding building the team from the line out.

DT14PRIEST
04-25-2009, 11:32 PM
I saw 15 and thought you were speaking of this years draft. My bad.

Its my fault as well I can see how it'd be misinterpreted.

Three7s
04-25-2009, 11:32 PM
Were Dick Butkis or Lawrence Taylor the best LB's of their respective drafts or was it just the system they were in? Not comparing Curry to either of these guys obviously but I think the system when it comes to this position has less to do with it than you are claiming IMO.
Curry is gonna be a good cover LB wherever he goes, he'd do better in a 4-3, but he could do well in a 3-4 too. In my post, I was referring to the 3-4 scheme being the main reason we took Jackson, actually.

DrunkHillbilly
04-25-2009, 11:39 PM
Hopefully Pioli continues his masterfull draft record but this will be his legacy one way or another!!

Chiefster
04-26-2009, 12:09 AM
Hopefully Pioli continues his masterfull draft record but this will be his legacy one way or another!!


Let's hope it's for the better.

Vandelay
04-26-2009, 01:37 AM
I'm taking a wait and see approach to this pick, I am confident that Pioli is a good evaluator of talent. And I for one, am happy we didn't take Curry, he's a little overated IMO.

Chiefster
04-26-2009, 01:54 AM
I wouldn't have minded us taking Crabtree.

Three7s
04-26-2009, 02:20 AM
I wouldn't have minded us taking Crabtree.
I wanted Monroe, I think him playing with Albert would've been nice to see, seeing as they played together at Virginia. I guess it's fine, though.

jap1
04-26-2009, 02:32 AM
I wanted Monroe, I think him playing with Albert would've been nice to see, seeing as they played together at Virginia. I guess it's fine, though.

Well instead of a pair of Virginia OL-men, we now have a pair of LSU DL-men. Lets hope the latter will work better together.

okikcfan
04-26-2009, 02:56 AM
I'm taking a wait and see approach to this pick, I am confident that Pioli is a good evaluator of talent. And I for one, am happy we didn't take Curry, he's a little overated IMO.

I have to agree with u on the wait and see issue as far as being overrated, I don't think he was, I just don't think he fit into our new system. It has been said Curry was not very good at pass rushing and that could have been a big reason. Tyson Jackson played with Dorsey and it is also said they worked very well together and that may have also played a part. I'm sure some picks Pioli made in NE had people talking also, but the fact is, he did very well. So like you said, it's just wait and see...

texaschief
04-26-2009, 03:23 AM
Nobody thought Mario Williams was the right pick at #1 a couple years ago either. I think he was a bit of a reach at #3, but like Pioli said, it takes two to make a deal. Trading down was probably impossible. Which, if you went back and read most of the grounded threads about the draft, the probability of trading down was ALWAYS an extreme pipe dream.

That said, the Chiefs were in a tough spot this year. There just wasn't that ELITE prospect that was a no-brainer pick. Curry might've been nice, but there were probably questions about him going to a 3-4. With the Chiefs passing on Curry, I've gotta believe the Chiefs are going to put Hali at LB. (Where he practiced during the 3-day mimi camp) That's going to be EXTREMELY interesting.

2005
1-Derrick Johnson, OLB

2006
1- Tamba Hali, DE/OLB
2- Bernard Pollard, S

2007
2- Turk McBride, DE/DT
3- Tank Tyler, DT/NT

2008
1- Glenn Dorsey, DT
2- Brandon Flowers, CB
3- DaJuan Morgan, S
5- Brandon Carr, CB

2009
1- Tyson Jackson, DE/DT

Nine picks in the first three rounds over the last years (so far), including 4 first rounders. This defense needs to start turning the corner. I think you're starting to see this defense take shape for the long-term... finally. Let's hope Dorsey can find a niche on this team.

DE- Tyson Jackson
NT- Tank Tyler
DE- (Turk McBride?)
3 T- Glenn Dorsey
OLB-Mike Vrabel/Tamba Hali
ILB- Zack Thomas
ILB- Tamba Hali/Mike Vrabel
OLB- Derrick Johnson
CB- Brandon Flowers
CB- Brandon Carr
S- Bernard Pollard
S- Jarrad Page/DaJuan Morgan

chief31
04-26-2009, 04:15 AM
Wow.

I guess we managed to get that second round pick back after all. We just decided to use the #3 overall pick to draft for the second round.

I don't have any problem with the player. But we definitely wasted that high draft position.

And for a team that was overstocked with 3-4 DE types, I am stunned.

Hali, Boone, Dorsey and Mcbride all meet the profile of a 3-4 DE.

I think the defense will be better anyway. With, or without this guy. So there should be plenty of room for "I told you so"s.

But I do not think that this was the position of need for us.

Also, am I the only one who noticed in this video < Jeffri Chadiha examines the Kansas City Chiefs' first NFL draft under GM Scott Pioli - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=4100778) > that there is mention of Matt Cassel being highly involved in the office?

Wasn't Brian Waters ignored, and told that there was nothing for the team to talk to him about, when he attempted to be slightly involved?

That just sort of struck me as .... I don't know. But it struck me.

DT14PRIEST
04-26-2009, 04:59 AM
Wow.

I guess we managed to get that second round pick back after all. We just decided to use the #3 overall pick to draft for the second round.

I don't have any problem with the player. But we definitely wasted that high draft position.

And for a team that was overstocked with 3-4 DE types, I am stunned.

Hali, Boone, Dorsey and Mcbride all meet the profile of a 3-4 DE.

I think the defense will be better anyway. With, or without this guy. So there should be plenty of room for "I told you so"s.

But I do not think that this was the position of need for us.

Also, am I the only one who noticed in this video < Jeffri Chadiha examines the Kansas City Chiefs' first NFL draft under GM Scott Pioli - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=4100778) > that there is mention of Matt Cassel being highly involved in the office?

Wasn't Brian Waters ignored, and told that there was nothing for the team to talk to him about, when he attempted to be slightly involved?

That just sort of struck me as .... I don't know. But it struck me.

I don't know about overstocked, I actually don't believe the Chiefs had a single 'true' 3-4 End prospect on the roster till they got Jackson.

Boone and McBride don't quite fit the mold. (Boone is going to be 33 this year as well I wouldnt be surprised if he got cut)

Dorsey is still a big question mark.

Hali has potential but would have to pack on some weight so again question mark. Was working with the LBs in voluntary like texaschief said so another question mark.

I like the player, I like the pick, but I do agree that it was a reach at 3; it was high for a 5 tech DE, but the reality of the situation was that the Chiefs we're stuck at 3 and chose to address the need defensively where they needed it the most.

I can't argue with that.

I mocked Monroe personally but I feel like Tyson has tremendous upside so only time will tell if Pioli gambled this one right.

edit: I like it more then Curry, and I know that isn't a popular sentiment

AkChief49
04-26-2009, 08:29 AM
I wanted Monroe, I think him playing with Albert would've been nice to see, seeing as they played together at Virginia. I guess it's fine, though.
This was my preferred scenario as well. A dominating O-line........sigh. But hey it's Tyson Jackson so welcome aboard TJ. Hopefully we will be calling him "Sack"son Jackson?

yashi
04-26-2009, 09:40 AM
Hali, Boone, Dorsey and Mcbride all meet the profile of a 3-4 DE.

That's really not true.. an ideal 3-4 DE is a 5 technique guy who is at least 6'4" 290 lbs. Only Alfonso Boone sort of meets some of that criteria, and while I actually kind of like Boone, he's 33 years old and on the tail end of his career.

Steelers DEs? 6'5" 298 and 6'5" 285.
Patriots DEs? 6'5" 300 and 6'6" 310.
Dolphins DEs? 6'6" 294 and 6'4" 290.

Hali - 6'3" 275.
McBride - 6'2" 278
Dorsey - 6'1" 297

jmlamerson
04-26-2009, 02:48 PM
That's really not true.. an ideal 3-4 DE is a 5 technique guy who is at least 6'4" 290 lbs. Only Alfonso Boone sort of meets some of that criteria, and while I actually kind of like Boone, he's 33 years old and on the tail end of his career.

Steelers DEs? 6'5" 298 and 6'5" 285.
Patriots DEs? 6'5" 300 and 6'6" 310.
Dolphins DEs? 6'6" 294 and 6'4" 290.

Hali - 6'3" 275.
McBride - 6'2" 278
Dorsey - 6'1" 297

I would be very shocked if 3 of the 4 of Hali, Boone, McBride, and Edwards are on our team come the start of the season.

Bike
04-26-2009, 03:00 PM
Hali and McBride looked like boys among men all year.
These guys are suppose to go TOWARDS the ol, not backwards.

pbatrucker
04-27-2009, 10:49 AM
I would be very shocked if 3 of the 4 of Hali, Boone, McBride, and Edwards are on our team come the start of the season.
:bananen_smilies046: Agreed!!!!!

wichitaj
04-27-2009, 03:16 PM
keep hali, to the rubbage with the rest

pbatrucker
04-27-2009, 04:57 PM
keep hali, to the rubbage with the rest

Hali better improve after slimming down and trying LB, he won't be around playing DE. He has not proved he can play the run or rush the passer, so LB or bust for him.
:bananen_smilies046:

Bike
04-27-2009, 05:01 PM
Hali better improve after slimming down and trying LB, he won't be around playing DE. He has not proved he can play the run or rush the passer, so LB or bust for him.
:bananen_smilies046:
Yep. I really don't see Hali or McBride on this team after training camp...

jmlamerson
04-27-2009, 05:05 PM
Yep. I really don't see Hali or McBride on this team after training camp...

It'd be nice if we could trade Hali for something, but I know that's a long shot.

tornadospotter
04-28-2009, 01:04 AM
Gannon was traded away because grbac had the more NFL QB profile and skill set. But Gannon was a Player, a leader. He had heart, drive and love of the game. Maybe we have that in some these players, Maybe they can play. Time will tell, that is a given.

KristofLaw
04-28-2009, 02:33 AM
The draft is just ended and we want to dump our players?!? I hope Pioli/company isn't a secret poster on here or we're in trouble. Yeesh.

Bike
04-28-2009, 04:47 AM
The draft is just ended and we want to dump our players?!? I hope Pioli/company isn't a secret poster on here or we're in trouble. Yeesh.
We will certainly need to dump unproductive players.

Sn@keIze
04-28-2009, 09:04 AM
Hali and McBride looked like boys among men all year.
These guys are suppose to go TOWARDS the ol, not backwards.


Hali better improve after slimming down and trying LB, he won't be around playing DE. He has not proved he can play the run or rush the passer, so LB or bust for him.
:bananen_smilies046:


Yep. I really don't see Hali or McBride on this team after training camp...Hali had a hell of a rookie year, granted he played opposite of JA.

Ive gotta believe hes still got it, and the Herms blain defensive scheme is more of the culprit.

Weve got way too much talent on this D line now. 3 first round draft picks.

I will say that this is a wake up call for Hali and he is running out of chances.

Bike
04-28-2009, 09:15 AM
Hali had a hell of a rookie year, granted he played opposite of JA.

Ive gotta believe hes still got it, and the Herms blain defensive scheme is more of the culprit.

Weve got way too much talent on this D line now. 3 first round draft picks.

I will say that this is a wake up call for Hali and he is running out of chances.
Haley has already said there will be an open competition for all positions so in that respect Hali will have to show some promise in training camp and pre-season or he is probably cut...

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 09:53 AM
Haley has already said there will be an open competition for all positions so in that respect Hali will have to show some promise in training camp and pre-season or he is probably cut...

I see us keeping Hali as a backup, simply because he isn't expensive and has some value on the open market.

pbatrucker
04-28-2009, 09:57 AM
I see us keeping Hali as a backup, simply because he isn't expensive and has some value on the open market.

He's 20-30 pds to lite for a 3-4 DE, LBer ?, we'll see.

:11:

Bike
04-28-2009, 09:57 AM
I see us keeping Hali as a backup, simply because he isn't expensive and has some value on the open market.
Definetely sounds like he's moving backwards - just as he's been doing on the field...
In case you can't tell, I'm not a Hali fan.

yashi
04-28-2009, 09:58 AM
I hate cutting players that will immediately be signed by another team though. We shouldn't cut Hali, he has at least proven he can produce in the right circumstances, and he actually made an immediate impact when moved back to left end last season.

Being that he probably has the best pass rush moves on the roster, I think we can expect to see him rushing the passer as an OLB on 3rd down next year at the very least.

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 10:00 AM
Definetely sounds like he's moving backwards - just as he's been doing on the field...
In case you can't tell, I'm not a Hali fan.

Neither am I. It's easy to appear competent when you have JA on the other side of the line drawing double teams.

Hali's biggest problems are that he can't rush the passer without an elite DE on the other side of the line, and that he's useless against the run. It doesn't help that he's too small for a 3-4, and I dont think he has the instincts to be an OLB.

pbatrucker
04-28-2009, 10:03 AM
I hate cutting players that will immediately be signed by another team though. We shouldn't cut Hali, he has at least proven he can produce in the right circumstances, and he actually made an immediate impact when moved back to left end last season.

I agree. We still need to address the OC and maybe RT positions. Maybe we can use Hali and McBride as trade bait. Looking at some of the other teams rosters, some have 5/6 centers, might get some action somewhere.
:11:

Bike
04-28-2009, 10:15 AM
I agree. We still need to address the OC and maybe RT positions. Maybe we can use Hali and McBride as trade bait. Looking at some of the other teams rosters, some have 5/6 centers, might get some action somewhere.
:11:
I agree they should be traded if possible. I mean, missed tackles, being out of position, being constantly shoved backwards, stifling your own teammates (Page) will be inexcusable under this new staff.
I hope.

jaimevick
04-28-2009, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't sweat the lack of sacks by Jackson the past 2 seasons. Bo Pelini made some changes to LSU's defense that stressed containment of the quarterback more than attacking the passer 2 seasons ago. Last season Miles promoted to position coaches to defensive co-coordinators. Needless to say, the two jackholes he promoted, coached the worst performing positions on the team the previous year. Mallory and Peveto. I'm not sure if they were fired, but they sure as hell are no longer employed at LSU. Jackson is a really tenacious player. I agree, number 3 is a little high, but if you can't trade down with anyone you should have won more games last season or take the best player for your system. Quality guy on and off the field for sure.

chief31
04-28-2009, 06:42 PM
Haley has already said there will be an open competition for all positions so in that respect Hali will have to show some promise in training camp and pre-season or he is probably cut...

I have a hard time imagining that competition will be "open".

I believe that, as usual, the new staff's additions will have a huge advantage, by way of judging bias.


I wouldn't sweat the lack of sacks by Jackson the past 2 seasons. Bo Pelini made some changes to LSU's defense that stressed containment of the quarterback more than attacking the passer 2 seasons ago. Last season Miles promoted to position coaches to defensive co-coordinators. Needless to say, the two jackholes he promoted, coached the worst performing positions on the team the previous year. Mallory and Peveto. I'm not sure if they were fired, but they sure as hell are no longer employed at LSU. Jackson is a really tenacious player. I agree, number 3 is a little high, but if you can't trade down with anyone you should have won more games last season or take the best player for your system. Quality guy on and off the field for sure.

Or just pick that guy when you believe that the next team up is going to.

I think we could have waited until at least the eighth pick.

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 06:50 PM
Or just pick that guy when you believe that the next team up is going to.

I think we could have waited until at least the eighth pick.

Do you think the Jags wanted to trade up to the third pick?

chief31
04-28-2009, 07:11 PM
Do you think the Jags wanted to trade up to the third pick?

No. Why?

Three7s
04-28-2009, 07:50 PM
No. Why?
I know they wouldn't wanna trade up to that spot, but you said we could wait til the 8th pick, and that's where the Jags picked.

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 07:50 PM
No. Why?

Because you stated that we could have gotten Jackson with the eight pick. A trade with the Jags is the only way to pick Jackson eight.

EDIT: What Three7s said

yashi
04-28-2009, 07:56 PM
I'm guessing he means to keep going past the allowed time until we forfeit down to that pick. It's an interesting idea, but I can't picture a team ever doing it intentionally. I don't even know if you can really do it or not.

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 10:55 PM
I'm guessing he means to keep going past the allowed time until we forfeit down to that pick. It's an interesting idea, but I can't picture a team ever doing it intentionally. I don't even know if you can really do it or not.

The Vikings did it a couple times. It doesn't work. The guy you draft doesn't take less money because you passed the pick.

chief31
04-28-2009, 11:11 PM
The Vikings did it a couple times. It doesn't work. The guy you draft doesn't take less money because you passed the pick.

In fact he does. The only time I know of this having happened, was with Bryant Mckinnie. There was a long negotiation, but they did get a slight bargain. Or so they said.

And that was only one position down in the draft. Five or six spots is going to be a much better bargaining chip, especially with a guy who was not expected to be in the top five anyway.

Worse come to worse, you pay the same. No loss.

theaxeeffect4311
04-28-2009, 11:14 PM
In fact he does. The only time I know of this having happened, was with Bryant Mckinnie. There was a long negotiation, but they did get a slight bargain. Or so they said.

And that was only one position down in the draft. Five or six spots is going to be a much better bargaining chip, especially with a guy who was not expected to be in the top five anyway.

Worse come to worse, you pay the same. No loss.

So what's the point?

chief31
04-28-2009, 11:16 PM
So what's the point?

The point is paying the guy as a number six or seven pick, instead of a number three pick.

Chiefster
04-28-2009, 11:17 PM
So what's the point?

Dude, you just opened up a great big can of worms!!! :lol:

Chiefster
04-28-2009, 11:19 PM
The point is paying the guy as a number six or seven pick, instead of a number three pick.


I can't believe that's all you had to say on the subject. :lol:

chief31
04-28-2009, 11:19 PM
I can't believe that's all you had to say on the subject. :lol:

I'm tired. :)

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 11:20 PM
In fact he does. The only time I know of this having happened, was with Bryant Mckinnie. There was a long negotiation, but they did get a slight bargain. Or so they said.

And that was only one position down in the draft. Five or six spots is going to be a much better bargaining chip, especially with a guy who was not expected to be in the top five anyway.

Worse come to worse, you pay the same. No loss.

Vikings did it two years in a row, with Bryant McKinnie and Kevin Williams. The were roundly mocked and pretty much paid the same as they would at the original spot. Both held out for the appropriate money, McKinnie for most of his first season. We really don't want or need that kind of problem, do we?

Let's just assume that passing until the eighth spot isn't an option. In that case, we did everything we could, didn't we?

theaxeeffect4311
04-28-2009, 11:21 PM
The point is paying the guy as a number six or seven pick, instead of a number three pick.

Has it ever worked?



Dude, you just opened up a great big can of worms!!! :lol:


:D

chief31
04-28-2009, 11:28 PM
Vikings did it two years in a row, with Bryant McKinnie and Kevin Williams. The were roundly mocked and pretty much paid the same as they would at the original spot. Both held out for the appropriate money, McKinnie for most of his first season. We really don't want or need that kind of problem, do we?

Let's just assume that passing until the eighth spot isn't an option. In that case, we did everything we could, didn't we?

No. There is no way that I will believe that noone was willing to trade up a few spots at no cost. We could have traded even-up with The Jets, or whoever, and saved a dime.

And, we could have not diminished he value of the pick, and taken another position of greater, or equal, need. (OT and NT come to mind.)


Has it ever worked?





:D

Just as many times as it has been unsuccessful.

Anything else, I will have to get back to you on, as I wasn't kidding. I am extremely tired.:D

Chiefster
04-28-2009, 11:34 PM
I'm tired. :)


You must be exhausted. :D

DT14PRIEST
04-28-2009, 11:56 PM
No. There is no way that I will believe that noone was willing to trade up a few spots at no cost. We could have traded even-up with The Jets, or whoever, and saved a dime.

And, we could have not diminished he value of the pick, and taken another position of greater, or equal, need. (OT and NT come to mind.)


Wouldn't that be depreciating the value of whatever we recieved in return?

Assuming we had no idea the Chiefs would take Jackson at 3 and they traded with the Jets (just swapping pick position) it sort of kills the value of having the third overall pick regardless if we take Jackson or switch to 20 (20 for jets?) without any compensation that comes with it because then speculationg would arise about what 'could of been' wouldn't it?

It'd look kind of silly.

Now top 10 maybe but outside of that I'm not sure if you can argue that.

theaxeeffect4311
04-29-2009, 01:45 AM
Wouldn't that be depreciating the value of whatever we recieved in return?

Assuming we had no idea the Chiefs would take Jackson at 3 and they traded with the Jets (just swapping pick position) it sort of kills the value of having the third overall pick regardless if we take Jackson or switch to 20 (20 for jets?) without any compensation that comes with it because then speculationg would arise about what 'could of been' wouldn't it?

It'd look kind of silly.

Now top 10 maybe but outside of that I'm not sure if you can argue that.

On top of that, we would not have been able to grab Tyson Jackson. He would have probably went to the Broncos, Chargers, or Packers.

yashi
04-29-2009, 07:16 AM
Broncos go Jackson at 12 if we don't. Do you honestly think McDaniels original intention was to go RB at 12, when that defense is as bad as ours?

jmlamerson
04-29-2009, 10:13 AM
No. There is no way that I will believe that noone was willing to trade up a few spots at no cost. We could have traded even-up with The Jets, or whoever, and saved a dime.

And, we could have not diminished he value of the pick, and taken another position of greater, or equal, need. (OT and NT come to mind.)

The problem with just swapping picks is that we would never be taken seriously in trade negotiations again. No one would ever give us additional picks to trade down.

I admire your ingenuity in trying to find a way out of the situation we were in, but face it - we were stuck at #3. And given that fact, we did everything we could.

pbatrucker
04-29-2009, 11:07 AM
The problem with just swapping picks is that we would never be taken seriously in trade negotiations again. No one would ever give us additional picks to trade down.

I admire your ingenuity in trying to find a way out of the situation we were in, but face it - we were stuck at #3. And given that fact, we did everything we could.
Good point. The main reason is: Why would the Jets want to move up to 3 and spend an extra 20 mil when they didn't have to.
:11: