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texaschief
04-27-2009, 02:57 PM
1 Tyson Jackson LSU
3 Alex Magee Purdue
4 Donald Washington Ohio State
5 Colin Brown Mizzu
6 Quinten Lawrence McNeese St.
7 Javarris Williams Tenn. St.
7 Jake O'Connell Miami OH
7 Ryan Succop USCarolina

Patriots:

1 Jerod Mayo Tennessee
2 Terrence Wheatley Colorado
3 Shawn Crable Michigan
3 Kevin O'Connell San Diego State
4 Jonathan Wilhite Auburn
5 Matt Slater UCLA
6 Bo Ruud Nebraska

2007
Rnd Name College Note
1 Brandon Meriweather Miami (Fla.)
4 Kareem Brown Miami (Fla.)
5 Clint Oldenburg Colorado State
6 Justin Rogers Southern Methodist
6 Mike Richardson Notre Dame
6 Justise Hairston Central Connecticut State
6 Corey Hilliard Oklahoma State
7 Oscar Lua USC
7 Mike Elgin Iowa

2006
Rnd Name College Note
1 Laurence Maroney Minnesota
2 Chad Jackson Florida
3 Dave Thomas Texas
4 Garrett Mills Tulsa
4 Stephen Gostkowski Memphis (kicker)
5 Ryan O'Callaghan California
6 Jeremy Mincey Florida
6 Dan Stevenson Notre Dame
6 Le Kevin Smith Nebraska
7 Willie Andrews Baylor

2005
Rnd Name College Note
1 Logan Mankins Fresno State
3 Ellis Hobbs Iowa State (traded)
3 Nick Kaczur Toledo
4 James Sanders Fresno State
5 Ryan Claridge Nevada-Las Vegas
7 Matt Cassel USC
7 Andy Stokes William Penn

2004
Rnd Name College Note
1 Vince Wilfork Miami (FL)
1 Ben Watson Georgia
2 Marquise Hill Louisiana State
3 Guss Scott Florida
4 Dexter Reid North Carolina
4 Cedric Cobbs Arkansas
5 P.K. Sam Florida State
7 Christian Morton Illinois

2003
Rnd Name College Note
1 Ty Warren Texas A&M
2 Eugene Wilson Illinois
2 Bethel Johnson Texas A&M
4 Dan Klecko Temple
4 Asante Samuel Central Florida
5 Dan Koppen Boston College
6 Kliff Kingsbury Texas Tech
7 Spencer Nead Brigham Young
7 Tully Banta-Cain California
7 Ethan Kelley Baylor

2002
Rnd Name College Note
1 Dan Graham Colorado
2 Deion Branch Louisville
4 Rohan Davey Louisiana State
4 Jarvis Green Louisiana State
7 Antwoine Womack Virginia
7 David Givens Notre Dame


So, not including this year's draft, of the 57 picks Pioli was a part of in NE, only 13 have stuck as starters. 6 of those starters were first round picks. 1 was a kicker. At least he doesn't miss on first rounders... I'll give him that. Here's hoping he had a big hand in the draft in 2005.

This seems to be the draft strategy from here on... throw a bunch of sh!t at the wall and hope something sticks.

jmlamerson
04-27-2009, 03:07 PM
You're shorting the Dan Graham, Deion Branch, David Givens, Eugene Wilson, and Jarvis Green picks. All five picks were for players who were starters in the Pats 2003 and 2004 SB seasons. Also, Maroney is still a starter for them.

Ryan O'Callaghan, Wheatley, and Dave Thomas are valuable backups who see a lot of playing time.

wichitaj
04-27-2009, 03:13 PM
the pats have been loaded with great talen for the past 10 years, it would be mucher harder to make it on that team, as oh say the chiefs. its called building.

texaschief
04-27-2009, 03:18 PM
You're shorting the Dan Graham, Deion Branch, David Givens, Eugene Wilson, and Jarvis Green picks. All five picks were for players who were starters in the Pats 2003 and 2004 SB seasons. Also, Maroney is still a starter for them.

Ryan O'Callaghan, Wheatley, and Dave Thomas are valuable backups who see a lot of playing time.

So, what happened to those players? Herm could've found a couple 2 or 3 year starters before fading into oblivion. Ryan Sims was a starter for a few years too.

You won't find a depth chart that has Moroney as a starter. He wasn't last year and he won't be this year either.

jmlamerson
04-27-2009, 03:57 PM
So, what happened to those players? Herm could've found a couple 2 or 3 year starters before fading into oblivion. Ryan Sims was a starter for a few years too.

You won't find a depth chart that has Moroney as a starter. He wasn't last year and he won't be this year either.

Everyone I mentioned, except Maroney, was a productive member of the Pats SB teams. Unlike Sims, who was a unproductive member of some bad Chiefs defenses.

Most left as FAs. Jarvis Green is still a backup, I think. The Pats traded Branch for a 1st rounder to Seattle.

They were players that fit Belicheck's scheme. They were drafted for such. They weren't drafted for the schemes they left for/got traded to. This isn't hard.

jmlamerson
04-27-2009, 04:32 PM
You won't find a depth chart that has Moroney as a starter. He wasn't last year and he won't be this year either.

Here you are:

Yahoo! Sports - NFL - New England Patriots - Depth Chart (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/nwe/depthchart)

Hayvern
04-27-2009, 10:06 PM
1 Tyson Jackson LSU
3 Alex Magee Purdue
4 Donald Washington Ohio State
5 Colin Brown Mizzu
6 Quinten Lawrence McNeese St.
7 Javarris Williams Tenn. St.
7 Jake O'Connell Miami OH
7 Ryan Succop USCarolina

Patriots:

1 Jerod Mayo Tennessee
2 Terrence Wheatley Colorado
3 Shawn Crable Michigan
3 Kevin O'Connell San Diego State
4 Jonathan Wilhite Auburn
5 Matt Slater UCLA
6 Bo Ruud Nebraska

2007
Rnd Name College Note
1 Brandon Meriweather Miami (Fla.)
4 Kareem Brown Miami (Fla.)
5 Clint Oldenburg Colorado State
6 Justin Rogers Southern Methodist
6 Mike Richardson Notre Dame
6 Justise Hairston Central Connecticut State
6 Corey Hilliard Oklahoma State
7 Oscar Lua USC
7 Mike Elgin Iowa

2006
Rnd Name College Note
1 Laurence Maroney Minnesota
2 Chad Jackson Florida
3 Dave Thomas Texas
4 Garrett Mills Tulsa
4 Stephen Gostkowski Memphis (kicker)
5 Ryan O'Callaghan California
6 Jeremy Mincey Florida
6 Dan Stevenson Notre Dame
6 Le Kevin Smith Nebraska
7 Willie Andrews Baylor

2005
Rnd Name College Note
1 Logan Mankins Fresno State
3 Ellis Hobbs Iowa State (traded)
3 Nick Kaczur Toledo
4 James Sanders Fresno State
5 Ryan Claridge Nevada-Las Vegas
7 Matt Cassel USC
7 Andy Stokes William Penn

2004
Rnd Name College Note
1 Vince Wilfork Miami (FL)
1 Ben Watson Georgia
2 Marquise Hill Louisiana State
3 Guss Scott Florida
4 Dexter Reid North Carolina
4 Cedric Cobbs Arkansas
5 P.K. Sam Florida State
7 Christian Morton Illinois

2003
Rnd Name College Note
1 Ty Warren Texas A&M
2 Eugene Wilson Illinois
2 Bethel Johnson Texas A&M
4 Dan Klecko Temple
4 Asante Samuel Central Florida
5 Dan Koppen Boston College
6 Kliff Kingsbury Texas Tech
7 Spencer Nead Brigham Young
7 Tully Banta-Cain California
7 Ethan Kelley Baylor

2002
Rnd Name College Note
1 Dan Graham Colorado
2 Deion Branch Louisville
4 Rohan Davey Louisiana State
4 Jarvis Green Louisiana State
7 Antwoine Womack Virginia
7 David Givens Notre Dame


So, not including this year's draft, of the 57 picks Pioli was a part of in NE, only 13 have stuck as starters. 6 of those starters were first round picks. 1 was a kicker. At least he doesn't miss on first rounders... I'll give him that. Here's hoping he had a big hand in the draft in 2005.

This seems to be the draft strategy from here on... throw a bunch of sh!t at the wall and hope something sticks.

This post means absolutely jack &(*& without comparing to how other teams have done. How many picks did any other team make that turned into productive players?

Bike
04-27-2009, 10:08 PM
This post means absolutely jack &(*& without comparing to how other teams have done. How many picks did any other team make that turned into productive players?
Correct

chief31
04-28-2009, 05:34 AM
Everyone I mentioned, except Maroney, was a productive member of the Pats SB teams. Unlike Sims, who was a unproductive member of some bad Chiefs defenses.

Most left as FAs. Jarvis Green is still a backup, I think. The Pats traded Branch for a 1st rounder to Seattle.

They were players that fit Belicheck's scheme. They were drafted for such. They weren't drafted for the schemes they left for/got traded to. This isn't hard.

So Belichick is going to be coaching us? That makes me feel alot better about everything.


Patriots:

1 Jerod Mayo Tennessee
2 Terrence Wheatley Colorado
3 Shawn Crable Michigan
3 Kevin O'Connell San Diego State
4 Jonathan Wilhite Auburn
5 Matt Slater UCLA
6 Bo Ruud Nebraska

2007
Rnd Name College Note
1 Brandon Meriweather Miami (Fla.)
4 Kareem Brown Miami (Fla.)
5 Clint Oldenburg Colorado State
6 Justin Rogers Southern Methodist
6 Mike Richardson Notre Dame
6 Justise Hairston Central Connecticut State
6 Corey Hilliard Oklahoma State
7 Oscar Lua USC
7 Mike Elgin Iowa

2006
Rnd Name College Note
1 Laurence Maroney Minnesota Just to be nice, I'll let this one slide.
2 Chad Jackson Florida
3 Dave Thomas Texas He started 10 games for The Pats in 2008. That is the starter.
4 Garrett Mills Tulsa
4 Stephen Gostkowski Memphis (kicker)
5 Ryan O'Callaghan California
6 Jeremy Mincey Florida
6 Dan Stevenson Notre Dame
6 Le Kevin Smith Nebraska
7 Willie Andrews Baylor

2005
Rnd Name College Note
1 Logan Mankins Fresno State
3 Ellis Hobbs Iowa State (traded)
3 Nick Kaczur Toledo
4 James Sanders Fresno State
5 Ryan Claridge Nevada-Las Vegas
7 Matt Cassel USC
7 Andy Stokes William Penn

2004
Rnd Name College Note
1 Vince Wilfork Miami (FL)
1 Ben Watson Georgia
2 Marquise Hill Louisiana State
3 Guss Scott Florida
4 Dexter Reid North Carolina
4 Cedric Cobbs Arkansas
5 P.K. Sam Florida State
7 Christian Morton Illinois

2003
Rnd Name College Note
1 Ty Warren Texas A&M
2 Eugene Wilson Illinois Still a starter today.
2 Bethel Johnson Texas A&M
4 Dan Klecko Temple
4 Asante Samuel Central Florida
5 Dan Koppen Boston College
6 Kliff Kingsbury Texas Tech
7 Spencer Nead Brigham Young
7 Tully Banta-Cain California
7 Ethan Kelley Baylor

2002
Rnd Name College Note
1 Dan Graham Colorado 80 career starts (Over 11 starts per season), including 31 starts in the past two seasons. This guy is a bonfide starter in the NFL. No fading into oblivion.
2 Deion Branch Louisville He is still a starter for The Seahawks. A couple of injuries have slowed him the past couple of years, but he is a starter in he NFL after seven seasons.
4 Rohan Davey Louisiana State I'll give you this one, because he is not the starter. But the guy does get some starts every season. And remaining on The Patriots for seven seasons and playing is a pretty big accomplishment.
4 Jarvis Green Louisiana State
7 Antwoine Womack Virginia
7 David Givens Notre Dame Injury is the only reason this playoff super-star is no longer around. He was a big piece of two of The Patriots' Super Bowl runs. I'd be thrilled to get that out of a seventh round pick.

Ad those five guys to your 13, and you get 18.

Now, I was about to believe you, and started to look at several other teams' results over that same period. And every team was at, or above, the 13 starters that you had mentioned. (Arizona, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Minnesota and Miami, plus Herm's seven drafts)

But then I started to think about it, and remembered how you used to dismiss Vermiel picks like Mitchell and Fujita. (Both are still full-time startes in The NFL.)

But I learned, that by comparison to the other teams I looked at, 18 starters is very good. It is the most that I counted, through those that I checked. Tied with Herm.

Vanilla Garilla
04-28-2009, 09:38 AM
This thread is pointless

Bike
04-28-2009, 09:43 AM
This thread is pointless
I think there is probably a point to it.
I just don't know what it is.

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 09:50 AM
So Belichick is going to be coaching us? That makes me feel alot better about everything.

No. It means that Pioli drafts according to his coach's scheme, not to draft nerds determination of talent.

Pioli drafted Jackson, Magee, and the rest because they were the best players for Haley/Pendergast's schemes. Not because of their rank on Mel Kiper's board.

Which is why Pioli is a GM and Kiper is a bad haircut.

Canada
04-28-2009, 09:52 AM
Which is why Pioli is a GM and Kiper is a bad haircut.

:lol::lol::lol::bananen_smilies046:

chief31
04-28-2009, 07:10 PM
No. It means that Pioli drafts according to his coach's scheme, not to draft nerds determination of talent.

Pioli drafted Jackson, Magee, and the rest because they were the best players for Haley/Pendergast's schemes. Not because of their rank on Mel Kiper's board.

Which is why Pioli is a GM and Kiper is a bad haircut.

That's a pretty easy statement to make when the coach is Belichick, who probably had the final say on all draft picks anyway, and made due with whatever he had.

I hope that we did steal the brains to that whole operation. But I just don't believe that we did.

I'd love to see Belichick turn into Ron Turner without Pioli. But I don't believe that that is going to be the case.

I believe that Pioli was made to look good, as so many players have been, by Belichick.

But again, I HOPE that isn't the case.

As far as taking the best players for Haley's system, I think he took the players that he feels were the best for the system.

But he still destroyed the value of almost every pick we had by reaching, instead of passing on his turn, to get the players at the right draft spot, and a better price.

Even if we did get the best player for this team, why pay him as a #3 draft pick, if we can pay him as a #6 pick?

jmlamerson
04-28-2009, 07:48 PM
That's a pretty easy statement to make when the coach is Belichick, who probably had the final say on all draft picks anyway, and made due with whatever he had.

I hope that we did steal the brains to that whole operation. But I just don't believe that we did.

I'd love to see Belichick turn into Ron Turner without Pioli. But I don't believe that that is going to be the case.

I believe that Pioli was made to look good, as so many players have been, by Belichick.

But again, I HOPE that isn't the case.

As far as taking the best players for Haley's system, I think he took the players that he feels were the best for the system.

But he still destroyed the value of almost every pick we had by reaching, instead of passing on his turn, to get the players at the right draft spot, and a better price.

Even if we did get the best player for this team, why pay him as a #3 draft pick, if we can pay him as a #6 pick?

But that's the flaw in your reasoning. You think we could trade down. We couldn't. And passing does you no good - ask the Vikings. The player you eventually get (see the Vikings' McKinnie fiasco) demands to be be paid from the original position.

Belichick coaches have done badly elsewhere. Pats front office people, like Dimitroff in ATL, have done very well. I think Belichick will do very well without Pioli. I think Pioli will do very well without Belichick. I think that they share the same value system as it pertains to the draft, and that is why they succeed. Neither is completely the brains. They, like Dimitroff, are very smart football people who share a similar FA/draft/trade philosophy.

If we could have gotten Jackson in the 2nd round, Magee in the 4th, Lawrence in the 7th, etc., then I'd agree with you. We couldn't though (except for Washington and O'Connell - two truly baffling picks).

I think Chiefs fans have been brainwashed by the past three years to believe several lies:

1. It takes half a decade to groom a DL;
2. Youth is the most important characteristic of a player; and
3. Always pick the BPA over a need pick.

Look at the perennially winning teams - the Pats, Colts, Titans, Steelers. They do not ascribe to any of these tenets. They (1) keep a consistent leadership at HC; and (2) prioritize their schemes over any one player.

Lazeye
04-28-2009, 09:56 PM
was Belichick with the browns at one time? And did'nt they suck? or am I wrong

DT14PRIEST
04-28-2009, 10:03 PM
was Belichick with the browns at one time? And did'nt they suck? or am I wrong

he led them to their last playoff apperance before the team moved to baltimore to become the ravens.

he was fired and went to NE with Parcells

texaschief
04-28-2009, 10:17 PM
I really wish I was the only one saying this:

"Kansas City Chiefs: I really like the Tyson Jackson pick and don’t find it a reach, though taking Alex Magee with the next pick is puzzling as he plays the exact same spot. The rest of their picks appear destined for the practice squad, and Mr. Irrelevant is a 66% FG kicker. No linebackers, no ready-to-play WRs, and just a real reach offensive lineman. I’ve questioned Scott Pioli’s recent drafts in New England, and this sure looks like more of the same--brilliant 1st rounder and then praying for good fortune.

Best Pick: Tyson Jackson "

http://www.realgmfootball.com/src_wiretap_archives/11929/20090428/the_only_draft_summary_youll_need_to_read/

pbatrucker
04-29-2009, 01:42 AM
I really wish I was the only one saying this:

"Kansas City Chiefs: I really like the Tyson Jackson pick and donít find it a reach, though taking Alex Magee with the next pick is puzzling as he plays the exact same spot. The rest of their picks appear destined for the practice squad, and Mr. Irrelevant is a 66% FG kicker. No linebackers, no ready-to-play WRs, and just a real reach offensive lineman. Iíve questioned Scott Pioliís recent drafts in New England, and this sure looks like more of the same--brilliant 1st rounder and then praying for good fortune.

Best Pick: Tyson Jackson "

RealGM Football: Wiretap Archives: The Only NFL Draft Summary You'll Need To Read (http://www.realgmfootball.com/src_wiretap_archives/11929/20090428/the_only_draft_summary_youll_need_to_read/)

I've been thinking of this a lot today. Even if I give Pioli !st and 3rd rounds as good picks (I'd rather had Antoine Caldwell in the 3rd) the rest of the draft was questionable at best. Duke Robinson was available in the 5th. LB Jasper Brinkley was a steal in the 6th.
I've got to agree with you.
:bananen_smilies046:

Hayvern
04-29-2009, 02:04 AM
I really wish I was the only one saying this:

"Kansas City Chiefs: I really like the Tyson Jackson pick and donít find it a reach, though taking Alex Magee with the next pick is puzzling as he plays the exact same spot. The rest of their picks appear destined for the practice squad, and Mr. Irrelevant is a 66% FG kicker. No linebackers, no ready-to-play WRs, and just a real reach offensive lineman. Iíve questioned Scott Pioliís recent drafts in New England, and this sure looks like more of the same--brilliant 1st rounder and then praying for good fortune.

Best Pick: Tyson Jackson "

RealGM Football: Wiretap Archives: The Only NFL Draft Summary You'll Need To Read (http://www.realgmfootball.com/src_wiretap_archives/11929/20090428/the_only_draft_summary_youll_need_to_read/)

I remember my father talking about kickers a lot when I was younger. He always used to talk about how the better kickers in college often turned out to not be so good when they get the NFL and just the opposite when it comes to the successful ones.

I am not sure that this is true, it is certainly anecdotal evidence at best, but I really wonder what the bust rate is on kickers in relation to when they are drafted. I know in 2006 our highly drafted kicker was dropped before the second game of the season.

Janikowski is a really good kicker, and was only one of two kickers taken in the first round. Anyway, if anyone can come up with some really good kickers to consider, I might be willing to do some leg work and see what the chances are the Mr. Irrelevant will be anything but.

hometeam
04-29-2009, 11:16 AM
Its easy to say 'only X players' turned into started from the draft, but until you look at a leaguewide average and see what other teams are doing, that doesnt mean much.

Show me some other teams that did better. Hell, if you want to make the point that Pioli in some way cant draft or sucks, show me 50% of the teams in the NFL that did better.

texaschief
04-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Kansas City: "The Chiefs think they got Richard Seymour in Tyson Jackson. He is not Richard Seymour. They really over-picked there. I'm all for the Matt Cassel trade for the No. 2 pick but I don't think Kansas City is getting criticized enough for what I thought was a pretty ineffective draft overall."

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-2095/Matt-Williamson-pans-AFC-West-draft.html

Chiefster
04-30-2009, 12:21 AM
I'm employing the "wait and see" philosophy.