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jmlamerson
05-18-2009, 11:33 PM
Here's how the Chiefs lined up with their first units during their first full-squad practice:

Offense
QB - Matt Cassel
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe
WR - Mark Bradley
TE - Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Wade Smith (for the absent Brian Waters)
C - Rudy Niswanger
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Damion McIntosh

Defense
LE - Tyson Jackson
NT - Ron Edwards
RE - Alex Magee (for the injured Glenn Dorsey)
OLB - Monty Beisel (for the absent Mike Vrabel)
ILB - Zach Thomas
ILB - Derrick Johnson
OLB - Tamba Hali
CB - Brandon Flowers
CB - Brandon Carr
FS - Jarrad Page
SS - Bernard Pollard

Starting lineups | Red Zone (http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/813)

Most interesting to me is Edwards at NT instead of Tank. Also Bradley instead of Engram at 2WR and that we're keeping Niswanger at C and Goff at RG, instead of vice versa.

AussieChiefsFan
05-18-2009, 11:53 PM
Here's how the Chiefs lined up with their first units during their first full-squad practice:

Offense
QB - Matt Cassel
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe
WR - Mark Bradley
TE - Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Wade Smith (for the absent Brian Waters)
C - Rudy Niswanger
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Damion McIntosh

Defense
LE - Tyson Jackson
NT - Ron Edwards
RE - Alex Magee (for the injured Glenn Dorsey)
OLB - Monty Beisel (for the absent Mike Vrabel)
ILB - Zach Thomas
ILB - Derrick Johnson
OLB - Tamba Hali
CB - Brandon Flowers
CB - Brandon Carr
FS - Jarrad Page
SS - Bernard Pollard

Starting lineups | Red Zone (http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/813)

Most interesting to me is Edwards at NT instead of Tank. Also Bradley instead of Engram at 2WR and that we're keeping Niswanger at C and Goff at RG, instead of vice versa.*sigh* That's not how it should be.........

honda522
05-18-2009, 11:59 PM
Just is curious to how Doresy is injured.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 12:01 AM
*sigh* That's not how it should be.........

It's a sad thing. But whether we lost Tony in 2009 or 2011, it was going to happen some time and some time soon.

I hope the Falcons win the NFC (and I think they've got a shot), just for Tony's sake.

That being said, except for TE, we look much better than opening day last year, pretty much across the board.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 12:06 AM
Just is curious to how Doresy is injured.

He sprained his left knee during practice.

I've posted it before, but don't get too attached to Dorsey. He's not a long term fixture of the team.

Chiefster
05-19-2009, 12:06 AM
...as long as we win! :D

AussieChiefsFan
05-19-2009, 12:26 AM
Just is curious to how Doresy is injured.
So am I!

honda522
05-19-2009, 01:00 AM
He sprained his left knee during practice.

I've posted it before, but don't get too attached to Dorsey. He's not a long term fixture of the team.
No wonder why he sucked, he doesn't even practice. havn't read much post latley on here.

honda522
05-19-2009, 01:02 AM
It's a sad thing. But whether we lost Tony in 2009 or 2011, it was going to happen some time and some time soon.

I hope the Falcons win the NFC (and I think they've got a shot), just for Tony's sake.

That being said, except for TE, we look much better than opening day last year, pretty much across the board.
Pretty true.

I think Cottam can be a soild player, as long as he can block, I will be happy.

yashi
05-19-2009, 10:13 AM
He sprained his left knee during practice.

I've posted it before, but don't get too attached to Dorsey. He's not a long term fixture of the team.

Writing him off as a DE before he even gets to play a game, eh?

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 10:34 AM
Writing him off as a DE before he even gets to play a game, eh?

I think he can be an stopgap DE for us for the next couple years, but I don't think he's our long term solution at the spot. I don't think he has the ability to stop the run, and he's not prototypical 3-4 DE physically.

I'd be happy to be wrong.

I'm surprised no one else is surprised at our NT situation. It doesn't spell great things about Tank's future.

yashi
05-19-2009, 10:57 AM
I think he can be an stopgap DE for us for the next couple years, but I don't think he's our long term solution at the spot. I don't think he has the ability to stop the run, and he's not prototypical 3-4 DE physically.

I'd be happy to be wrong.

I'm surprised no one else is surprised at our NT situation. It doesn't spell great things about Tank's future.

I hope you're not saying the same thing next offseason after Jackson and Magee struggle this season...

Defensive linemen are generally bad their rookie years. It's been proven time after time. The good ones break out in year 2 or 3. Richard Seymour was a bad player his first year, Scott Pioli said it himself. Mario Williams was looking like a huge bust.

There's a very good chance Dorsey is by far the best DL on the team this season. There were no knocks on his run stopping ability coming out of college, which leads me to believe he'll be alright with time.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 11:57 AM
I hope you're not saying the same thing next offseason after Jackson and Magee struggle this season...

Defensive linemen are generally bad their rookie years. It's been proven time after time. The good ones break out in year 2 or 3. Richard Seymour was a bad player his first year, Scott Pioli said it himself. Mario Williams was looking like a huge bust.

There's a very good chance Dorsey is by far the best DL on the team this season. There were no knocks on his run stopping ability coming out of college, which leads me to believe he'll be alright with time.

Defensive linemen take time to mature, sure. They're raw and they don't have the technique or conditioning yet to be NFL pros, moreso than any other position. That being said, the question with Williams, Seymour, Haynesworth, etc. was never their athleticism, size, or strength. It was technique, motor, and conditioning. Dorsey has questions about both the first and second groups. You can't coach height (and Dorsey's on the very short side of 3-4 DEs), and if you add too much muscle to Dorsey he'll lose his speed.

By the way, like Dorsey, Seymour was used as a 4-3 DT his first season. He racked up three sacks and started for the Pats SB team. He wasn't as good as he would be in the future, but he had a much better 1st year than Dorsey.

Dorsey never had big problems against the run in college because he played lighter OL than in the NFL. To be fair to him, he was never projected as a run-stuffing DT and wasn't drafted to be such. Herm drafted him to bring pressure on the QB from the inside of the line. Dorsey has shown to have big problems when playing head-to-head up with OL.

Will he be our best DL this year? Maybe, sure. Jackson and Magee will both need time to adapt to the pro game, Edwards is a journeyman (at best) and I trust Tank as far as I can throw him.

But Dorsey was part of a DL that was one of the worst of all time last year against the run and the pass. Is that all his fault? Of course not. Not even close. But it is a sign that we should be worried about his future with the team.

EDIT: I'd be the first to admit that I trust Pioli's picks more than Herm's. By a long shot. And that I'll give more time to Pioli's guys than I would Herm's.

Bike
05-19-2009, 12:31 PM
Zack Thomas isn't to good to participate in these workouts. So why ain't Vrabel around?
And why do I get the impression that Waters gets traded this summer?

yashi
05-19-2009, 12:59 PM
Defensive linemen take time to mature, sure. They're raw and they don't have the technique or conditioning yet to be NFL pros, moreso than any other position. That being said, the question with Williams, Seymour, Haynesworth, etc. was never their athleticism, size, or strength. It was technique, motor, and conditioning. Dorsey has questions about both the first and second groups. You can't coach height (and Dorsey's on the very short side of 3-4 DEs), and if you add too much muscle to Dorsey he'll lose his speed.

Sure. 27 reps of 225 would argue that he's not all that weak though. More on this further down.


By the way, like Dorsey, Seymour was used as a 4-3 DT his first season. He racked up three sacks and started for the Pats SB team. He wasn't as good as he would be in the future, but he had a much better 1st year than Dorsey.
I won't argue about Seymour's first year because I really don't know anything about his first year. I'm just going off of what Pioli said a couple weeks ago when he said Seymour was literally a "bad player" his rookie year when talking about what he expected out of Jackson next season.


But Dorsey was part of a DL that was one of the worst of all time last year against the run and the pass. Is that all his fault? Of course not. Not even close. But it is a sign that we should be worried about his future with the team.
He was part of that line. But he was a rookie and I'd argue that he was used incorrectly as well. Most smaller DL will look weak if you have them going straight at a 320 lb OG. Looking back, there wasn't really much to expect. He should have been allowed to penetrate the gaps, and he wasn't. If that's what Herm drafted him to do, he sure didn't let him do it.


EDIT: I'd be the first to admit that I trust Pioli's picks more than Herm's. By a long shot. And that I'll give more time to Pioli's guys than I would Herm's.

As you should, he has a good track record with draft picks, particularly defensive linemen. But it can't be a coincidence that everyone was saying we had the best draft of any team last season. That class will only be going into their 2nd year and should hardly be thrown to the wolves yet. It's not like many of the picks were considered reaches.

Defensive linemen should get a minimum of 2 years before we cast judgment. That's all I'm sayin. Maybe he will be a bust, maybe he won't. But we should at least wait to find out. The guy was a consensus top 5 pick in last season's draft. There has to be potential there. It's not like Herm drafted Darius Heyward-Bey.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 01:43 PM
Defensive linemen should get a minimum of 2 years before we cast judgment. That's all I'm sayin. Maybe he will be a bust, maybe he won't. But we should at least wait to find out. The guy was a consensus top 5 pick in last season's draft. There has to be potential there. It's not like Herm drafted Darius Heyward-Bey.

For most of your post, I agree entirely. Anyway, there's no real good in debating Dorsey until after the 2009 season. I'll expect the worst and pray for the best. I'd give a lot for you to be right and me to be wrong.

This last paragraph though, bugs me. Everyone did love our 2008 draft, because we drafted maximum value from our picks. We couldn't have gotten guys like Albert, Cottam, Charles, Morgan, Dorsey, etc. any lower than we did. We never reached (except for Franklin).

That being said, except for Carr, Flowers, and Albert, I didn't like our 2008 draft. Three guys are already gone: Franklin, Merritt, and Robinson. I don't see Richardson or Johnston as even second stringers in 2009 - it's practice squad or chopping block. Three guys worked out: Albert, Carr, and Flowers. That leaves Dorsey, Cottam, Charles, and Morgan as the question marks.

For some reason, people keep saying that you don't draft for need. I can see that argument at the top of the 1st round, where salaries are prohibitive, but I think it's nonsense in the later rounds. In 2008, we badly needed OL, DE, LB, WR, and QB. We got very, very lucky with Thigpen and Bradley, so the fact that we didn't draft the last two is forgotten.

Again, except for Albert, Carr (best pick Herm made that wasn't a slam dunk in his whole career), and Flowers, we drafted a bunch of backups and projects. Instead of drafting the things we needed and refused to get in FA, we drafted a project DT, a backup RB, a backup SS, a backup/project TE, and a bunch of reserves (at best). I'm not saying that guys like Morgan, Richardson, Charles, Johnston, etc. are bad players - I just don't see them being starters for us. Why draft a SS when you have a 23-year-old entrenched in the spot? Why draft a speed back like Charles when you don't have an OL to give him gaps in which to run? Why draft Dorsey when you need experience and size on the DL more than anything? As for Cottam, I'll believe it when I see it. Like many Herm picks, he's shown every possible measurable except the ability the ability to stay healthy and productive.

It was a good draft in a purely academic sense, but it was a bad draft in a practical sense. I just don't see us winning many games using most of the players from our 2008 draft.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 01:48 PM
Zack Thomas isn't to good to participate in these workouts. So why ain't Vrabel around?
And why do I get the impression that Waters gets traded this summer?

I'm not worried about Vrabel or Waters. They're savvy vets, incumbant starters, and they know the schemes. If they miss the voluntary workouts, I don't see it hurting their performance at all in 2009.

I don't think Waters sits out the 2009 season, and I can't see us trading him unless we sign a legitimate OL first. This is already going to be a spotty OL in 2009, with (somehow) McIntosh still on the right side, Albert still learning the pro-set as a LT, and Niswanger iffy at C. Unless someone blows us away with a player or pick, I don't think it happens.

yashi
05-19-2009, 02:17 PM
Again, except for Albert, Carr (best pick Herm made that wasn't a slam dunk in his whole career), and Flowers, we drafted a bunch of backups and projects. Instead of drafting the things we needed and refused to get in FA, we drafted a project DT, a backup RB, a backup SS, a backup/project TE, and a bunch of reserves (at best). I'm not saying that guys like Morgan, Richardson, Charles, Johnston, etc. are bad players - I just don't see them being starters for us. Why draft a SS when you have a 23-year-old entrenched in the spot? Why draft a speed back like Charles when you don't have an OL to give him gaps in which to run? Why draft Dorsey when you need experience and size on the DL more than anything? As for Cottam, I'll believe it when I see it. Like many Herm picks, he's shown every possible measurable except the ability the ability to stay healthy and productive.


It's easy to question why teams draft the way they do... hell, Pioli's draft had me questioning the positions he went after several times as well. Why wait until the 5th round to address the offensive line when you just traded for your franchise QB? Why take a nickel corner in the 4th with so many other pressing needs? Why trade back in to take a TE that more than likely wouldn't have been drafted. Why take a kicker at all?

Honestly, I have no idea what most teams are doing when they draft. But anyway, let's look at the 08 draft for second.

Dorsey - Likely won't be worth the #5 pick with the switch to 3-4.

Albert - Franchise LT. Only gave up 2.5 sacks I think, and just one false start. Very solid pick.

Flowers - Very solid. Should be a starter for a long time.

Charles - I actually like Charles a lot. He made some plays for us, and he's the best pass blocking back on the team. I think he's every bit as good as Felix Jones, who went in the 1st round.

Cottam - Who knows yet, but being that Tony G isn't here anymore taking a TE actually turned out to be a smart move.

Morgan - Bad pick for the reasons you stated.

Franklin - Terrible pick. Couldn't even hold a spot on the Lions.

Carr - Excellent.

Richardson - Project RT. About all you can expect in the 6th round. At least it was a lineman.

Robinson - Well, at least he tried to get a kick returner out of the draft.

Johnston - The biggest mistake was waiting to go DE here instead of round 3.

Merritt - Off field disaster, not worth bothering to see if he can play, which I'm sure he can't.

Even if Dorsey doesn't pan out due to scheme or ability, 4-5 out of 12 isn't that bad. Most teams are lucky to come out of a draft with 3 good players out of 7 picks. Dorsey and Cottam are really the wildcards here. Depending on how they turn out the draft can be anywhere from average to very good for me.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 03:51 PM
It's easy to question why teams draft the way they do... hell, Pioli's draft had me questioning the positions he went after several times as well. Why wait until the 5th round to address the offensive line when you just traded for your franchise QB? Why take a nickel corner in the 4th with so many other pressing needs? Why trade back in to take a TE that more than likely wouldn't have been drafted. Why take a kicker at all?

I understood (and loved) our 1st and 3rd picks. Pioli wanted big guys on the DL to stop the run. He didn't trust our current group to do that after ranking 32nd and 30th against the run the past two years.

I understood the 4th pick a whole lot more than I liked it. Carr and Flowers were good Cover 2 corners, but they probably don't have the speed or size to guard the Marshall's, Moss's, and Owens's of the world man-to-man. Pioli wants a big, fast CB in there to cover the big, fast WRs one-on-one.

That being said, OL is such a need, that it seemed ridiculous to draft a CB instead of a OT or OG. And while Brown may turn out to be a great pick, Herman and Robinson were still on the board and could have started at RG from day 1, with Goff at center.

I think Pioli likes O'Connell's special team abilities, and feared he would be snatched up in FA. I still can't figure why we picked Succop instead of Baker (NT).

The difference, though, between Herm and Pioli is that Pioli isn't even pretending that his lower picks can be starters. Herm sold everyone that a bunch of 5th and 6th rounders would be good enough to man our OL and front seven. Pioli getting starters 1-4 and special teams and role players 5-7. Which is the opposite of Herm.


Honestly, I have no idea what most teams are doing when they draft. But anyway, let's look at the 08 draft for second.

Dorsey - Likely won't be worth the #5 pick with the switch to 3-4.

Be fair. Even if we stuck in the 4-3, it's a questionable pick. Clady at 5 would have been such the better pick for us.


Albert - Franchise LT. Only gave up 2.5 sacks I think, and just one false start. Very solid pick.

I was very happy with Albert in 2008. I just worry how he'll do when we no longer run the spread. But I liked this pick last year and I love it now.


Flowers - Very solid. Should be a starter for a long time.

Like Albert, loved the pick them, love it now.


Charles - I actually like Charles a lot. He made some plays for us, and he's the best pass blocking back on the team. I think he's every bit as good as Felix Jones, who went in the 1st round.

When our other RBs are Kolby and LJ, it isn't hard to be the best pass blocker. I don't think Charles will ever be tough enough to be an every down back. We would have been much better off spending this pick on LB or OT.


Cottam - Who knows yet, but being that Tony G isn't here anymore taking a TE actually turned out to be a smart move.

It's only a smart move if Cottam's good.


Morgan - Bad pick for the reasons you stated.

I wouldn't hate this pick so much if I could understand it.


Franklin - Terrible pick. Couldn't even hold a spot on the Lions.

Herm wanted someone who could stretch the field. Like with many of his picks, Herm forgot that football is a contact sport.


Carr - Excellent.

I love this pick. Carr was our MVP last year (IMO).


Richardson - Project RT. About all you can expect in the 6th round. At least it was a lineman.

Robinson - Well, at least he tried to get a kick returner out of the draft.

Johnston - The biggest mistake was waiting to go DE here instead of round 3.

Merritt - Off field disaster, not worth bothering to see if he can play, which I'm sure he can't.

It's hard to mock bad 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders. They're roulette picks. But my point is that we shouldn't have been counting on 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders to fill our DE and OT spots, and Herm was counting on these guys to come in and start immediately.


Even if Dorsey doesn't pan out due to scheme or ability, 4-5 out of 12 isn't that bad. Most teams are lucky to come out of a draft with 3 good players out of 7 picks. Dorsey and Cottam are really the wildcards here. Depending on how they turn out the draft can be anywhere from average to very good for me.

It isn't that 3 (my count) out of 12 is bad (25%). I'm happy that we got three long-term starters out of one draft. It's just that (1) fans massively overrated the draft, along with most of Herm's drafts; (2) we could have used those picks to fill obvious holes; and (3) we bypassed FA in 2008, after losing our best player (JA), because we had such faith in Herm's drafting abilities.

I mean, out of Herm's 2006-2008 drafts, we got as 2009 starters: Dorsey, Page, Pollard, Flowers, Carr, Albert, Cottam, and Bowe (8 of 22 starters, 8 of 26 picks). Of those eight, Dorsey and Cottam are question marks, and I don't trust Page at FS. To my count, that's only five solid starters from those three drafts. That should be enough to convince most people that Herm was not the drafting genius everyone thought.

Three7s
05-19-2009, 04:04 PM
Not to interrupt this little discussion going on, but is anyone else kind of confused at Derrick Johnson starting at ILB? I know that his coverage skills aren't bad, but this guy can't seem to snare even the easiest of interceptions, and I feel like OLB would fit his strength set more.

Of course, I'm not genius.

chiefnut
05-19-2009, 04:15 PM
as much as i hate to give herm credit for doing anything good, but the 2008 draft did turn out very well. if a team gets 2 starters and 2 reserves out of one draft it's considered to be a successful draft. herm got 4 starters- Albert, Carr, Flowers, Cottam, maybe Dorsey [5], and 2 reserves Charles, Richardson, and/or Dorsey. now if the CHIEFS were a better team some of these may not have made it, so who knows.

chiefnut
05-19-2009, 04:17 PM
how about Edwards at NT?, he is the biggest DL we got so maybe that's why. I think maybe they want to bulk up Tank first for starting NT.

AkChief49
05-19-2009, 04:27 PM
Not to interrupt this little discussion going on, but is anyone else kind of confused at Derrick Johnson starting at ILB? I know that his coverage skills aren't bad, but this guy can't seem to snare even the easiest of interceptions, and I feel like OLB would fit his strength set more.

Of course, I'm not genius.
I'm no genius either, just mere speculation on my part, but the fact that Vrabel is awol? It also surprises me that Tank( he is a strong dude!) is not at NT. Maybe he does not want it bad enough. He's at that point(3rd year) where he should be starting to "get it". I've been holding out some hope for him. Hope he comes around.

AkChief49
05-19-2009, 04:30 PM
how about Edwards at NT?, he is the biggest DL we got so maybe that's why. I think maybe they want to bulk up Tank first for starting NT.
I hope that explains why he is not there now.:bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 05:45 PM
Not to interrupt this little discussion going on, but is anyone else kind of confused at Derrick Johnson starting at ILB? I know that his coverage skills aren't bad, but this guy can't seem to snare even the easiest of interceptions, and I feel like OLB would fit his strength set more.

Of course, I'm not genius.

DJ is just a little too small to play OLB in the 3-4. I thought they'd have him put on some weight and try it, but apparently not.

balto
05-19-2009, 05:50 PM
Here's how the Chiefs lined up with their first units during their first full-squad practice:

Offense
QB - Matt Cassel
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe
WR - Mark Bradley
TE - Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Wade Smith (for the absent Brian Waters)
C - Rudy Niswanger
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Damion McIntosh

Defense
LE - Tyson Jackson
NT - Ron Edwards
RE - Alex Magee (for the injured Glenn Dorsey)
OLB - Monty Beisel (for the absent Mike Vrabel)
ILB - Zach Thomas
ILB - Derrick Johnson
OLB - Tamba Hali
CB - Brandon Flowers
CB - Brandon Carr
FS - Jarrad Page
SS - Bernard Pollard

Starting lineups | Red Zone (http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/813)

Most interesting to me is Edwards at NT instead of Tank. Also Bradley instead of Engram at 2WR and that we're keeping Niswanger at C and Goff at RG, instead of vice versa.


I think you missed some of important stuff hehe

There were a handful of players who did not take part as they rehab from injury: QB Brodie Croyle, CB Maurice Leggett, TE Tony Davis, LB Turk McBride, DT Tank Tyler, DE Glenn Dorsey, OLB Brian Johnston and RB Kolby Smith.

Tank is still the starting Nt, but like Dorsey is injured atm.

jmlamerson
05-19-2009, 05:57 PM
I think you missed some of important stuff hehe

There were a handful of players who did not take part as they rehab from injury: QB Brodie Croyle, CB Maurice Leggett, TE Tony Davis, LB Turk McBride, DT Tank Tyler, DE Glenn Dorsey, OLB Brian Johnston and RB Kolby Smith.

Tank is still the starting Nt, but like Dorsey is injured atm.

Where does it say that?!

chiefnut
05-19-2009, 06:01 PM
I didn't see anything about an injury to Tank, also what about Turk??

balto
05-19-2009, 06:08 PM
It's from a different article, but still the same info.

Chiefs News Chiefs Update | Chiefs Football at BobGretz.com (http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/ota-1-update-518.html)

Look right before the bullets start

balto
05-19-2009, 06:09 PM
I didn't see anything about an injury to Tank, also what about Turk??

Turk was out too...

rodu
05-19-2009, 09:52 PM
I think you missed some of important stuff hehe

There were a handful of players who did not take part as they rehab from injury: QB Brodie Croyle, CB Maurice Leggett, TE Tony Davis, LB Turk McBride, DT Tank Tyler, DE Glenn Dorsey, OLB Brian Johnston and RB Kolby Smith.

Tank is still the starting Nt, but like Dorsey is injured atm.

he's being move dto LB too?

I wanna hear more about Waters, we know he was pouting this off season, wonder if these are connected

wolfpack
05-20-2009, 10:45 AM
waters has had it easy since DV. he got his feelings hurt and he might have to work for his job.
I say trade him for picks next year but dont release him, he`s under contract.
Still could use a WR, wish they would trade for Boulden.

balto
05-20-2009, 11:08 AM
he's being move dto LB too?

I wanna hear more about Waters, we know he was pouting this off season, wonder if these are connected


HEHE ya McBride at LB is a joke... I say send Waters, McBride, and that 2010 2nd we got for TG to the Cards for Boldin!!!!!!

Rumors say the Cards want a 2nd and a player, or a 1st and a 3rd/4th.

I know a lot of people think we can get a 2nd for Waters, but I'm guessing more like a 3rd...

McBride is worthless to us now and will not start or do much coming off the bench...

That 2nd we got for Tony will be a LATE 2nd....

If the Cards would do a straight up Waters/2nd for Boldin do it, but I think they might do it if we add McBride to the trade...

dbolan
05-20-2009, 11:11 AM
It is funny to me that when some of these guys "may" be on the chopping block, they suddenly "aquire" injuries.

If I am not mistaken, it makes it difficult to cut a guy, if at all, if they have an injury.

Hmmm...

jmlamerson
05-20-2009, 12:49 PM
It is funny to me that when some of these guys "may" be on the chopping block, they suddenly "aquire" injuries.

If I am not mistaken, it makes it difficult to cut a guy, if at all, if they have an injury.

Hmmm...

Yeah, you're mistaken. A team can cut a player for being injured, and it has no additional cap effects.

jmlamerson
05-20-2009, 12:52 PM
HEHE ya McBride at LB is a joke... I say send Waters, McBride, and that 2010 2nd we got for TG to the Cards for Boldin!!!!!!

Rumors say the Cards want a 2nd and a player, or a 1st and a 3rd/4th.

I know a lot of people think we can get a 2nd for Waters, but I'm guessing more like a 3rd...

McBride is worthless to us now and will not start or do much coming off the bench...

That 2nd we got for Tony will be a LATE 2nd....

If the Cards would do a straight up Waters/2nd for Boldin do it, but I think they might do it if we add McBride to the trade...

That would be a great trade for both teams. The Cards get a project 3-4 guy, an upgrade in their interior OL, and a 2nd rounder. I don't think they'll do much better.

One small nitpick: McBride was always worthless to us.

chiefnut
05-20-2009, 01:11 PM
Gee, i hope we'll have enuf players left to field a team. that's alot of injuries for no=contact.

balto
05-20-2009, 02:36 PM
That would be a great trade for both teams. The Cards get a project 3-4 guy, an upgrade in their interior OL, and a 2nd rounder. I don't think they'll do much better.

One small nitpick: McBride was always worthless to us.


LOL So true....

I guess we could throw in Boone too hehehe

chiefnut
05-20-2009, 02:54 PM
HEHE ya McBride at LB is a joke... I say send Waters, McBride, and that 2010 2nd we got for TG to the Cards for Boldin!!!!!!

Rumors say the Cards want a 2nd and a player, or a 1st and a 3rd/4th.

I know a lot of people think we can get a 2nd for Waters, but I'm guessing more like a 3rd...

McBride is worthless to us now and will not start or do much coming off the bench...

That 2nd we got for Tony will be a LATE 2nd....

If the Cards would do a straight up Waters/2nd for Boldin do it, but I think they might do it if we add

McBride to the trade...



DON'T LIKE THIS TRADE, you want to send an all pro guard and a 2nd round pick, and a DE [still w/potential to be a starter] for a great WR that we can use but may not actually need. now if you find a starting NT out there, that would be worth lookin inta.

balto
05-20-2009, 03:18 PM
DON'T LIKE THIS TRADE, you want to send an all pro guard and a 2nd round pick, and a DE [still w/potential to be a starter] for a great WR that we can use but may not actually need. now if you find a starting NT out there, that would be worth lookin inta.


We have a STUD NT with Tank!!! Why in the word would we want another NT hehe?

Waters on our team has got us nothing... our line has been VERY bad the last couple of years WITH Waters on it. I would think getting a threat like Boldin would help us a TON more then keeping a old LG wouldn't you hehe?

You also must of missed the memo??? McBride is now a OLB for us NOT a DE!!!! If you think Hali is gonna have a hard time switching from DE to OLB McBride is gonna have it 10X harder moving off the Dline!!! McBride did nothing for us when we ran the 4-3 and now is pretty much out of the rotation in our new 4-3 "under". So trading McBride would be like trading a practice team player at this point.

Waters, McBride, 2010 2nd

For

Boldin

HELL YES I WOULD!!!!!!

jmlamerson
05-20-2009, 03:45 PM
DON'T LIKE THIS TRADE, you want to send an all pro guard and a 2nd round pick, and a DE [still w/potential to be a starter] for a great WR that we can use but may not actually need. now if you find a starting NT out there, that would be worth lookin inta.

You're trading a guard with two years left (tops), a project player (you overestimate Turk, by a long shot), and (probably) a low 2nd rounder for one of the best WRs in the game. Balto's right, it's a no-brainer.

I have nothing against either Bradley or Engram (both of whom have big injury question marks), but with Bowe and Boldin as our two starting WRs, we suddenly have a WR corps (and offense) to be feared.

And there's no good NT people would trade to us for that low a price. We're going to have to muddle through 2009 with Edwards/Tank until we draft our NTOTF in 2010.

balto
05-20-2009, 04:16 PM
You're trading a guard with two years left (tops), a project player (you overestimate Turk, by a long shot), and (probably) a low 2nd rounder for one of the best WRs in the game. Balto's right, it's a no-brainer.

I have nothing against either Bradley or Engram (both of whom have big injury question marks), but with Bowe and Boldin as our two starting WRs, we suddenly have a WR corps (and offense) to be feared.

And there's no good NT people would trade to us for that low a price. We're going to have to muddle through 2009 with Edwards/Tank until we draft our NTOTF in 2010.

I think Tank could be a very good NT for us, BUT if he flops I would be ALL FOR taking

Terrence Cody "DT/NT" from Alabama
6'5 365 (lost 15 pounds, was at 380)

He would be a BEAST at NT.

pbatrucker
05-20-2009, 04:50 PM
I think Tank could be a very good NT for us, BUT if he flops I would be ALL FOR taking

Terrence Cody "DT/NT" from Alabama
6'5 365 (lost 15 pounds, was at 380)

He would be a BEAST at NT.
I watch as many alabama games as possible and Cody is unbelievable. He is certainly a beast.
IMO the combination of Edwards and Tank rotating at NT could be pretty good. I belive thoose two will roatate and stay fresh.as well as Jackson, Dorsey and McGee at DE.
:11:

jmlamerson
05-20-2009, 05:10 PM
I think Tank could be a very good NT for us, BUT if he flops I would be ALL FOR taking

Terrence Cody "DT/NT" from Alabama
6'5 365 (lost 15 pounds, was at 380)

He would be a BEAST at NT.

Yeah, Cody is who I was thinking of.

You have a lot more faith in Tank than I do. He did not look good one-on-one with OGs last year.

Bosco
05-20-2009, 10:52 PM
waters quit crying and get your but in there.

Sn@keIze
05-20-2009, 11:24 PM
waters quit crying and get your but in there.
I think he will at the mandatories. Vrabel will be there too.

balto
05-21-2009, 12:03 PM
I think he will at the mandatories. Vrabel will be there too.


Guess we will see hehe

chiefnut
05-21-2009, 02:21 PM
You're trading a guard with two years left (tops), a project player (you overestimate Turk, by a long shot), and (probably) a low 2nd rounder for one of the best WRs in the game. Balto's right, it's a no-brainer.

I have nothing against either Bradley or Engram (both of whom have big injury question marks), but with Bowe and Boldin as our two starting WRs, we suddenly have a WR corps (and offense) to be feared.

And there's no good NT people would trade to us for that low a price. We're going to have to muddle through 2009 with Edwards/Tank until we draft our NTOTF in 2010.



Your talking about an all pro guard who was unquestionably the best OL on one of the worst lines in the NFL. so ok lets trade him away and hope boldin is good at catching high fly balls cause our QB will be throwing while he's hitting the deck. our LT is as yet unproven, RT has been a problem, RG fair, C stll a ?, now remove a star LG you'll get pressure from both ends and up the middle. how will our QB be able to get the ball to Boldin??? now maybe in another year if some of the youngins develop we can afford to lose Waters but not now unless there are plans to add another sokid OL before this season. BTW Turk was a high 2nd round pick with a huge upside, don't underestimate his value to the right team. PIOLI would tell you 2nd roud picks are more coveted than first rounders since they have virtually the same success rate but at a much lower cost. again i agree boldin is an upgrade and is in the elite receivers discussion however is not a position of immediate need for us. we still have ? at DE, NT, LT, RG, RT, C, LB, FB

balto
05-21-2009, 02:57 PM
Your talking about an all pro guard who was unquestionably the best OL on one of the worst lines in the NFL. so ok lets trade him away and hope boldin is good at catching high fly balls cause our QB will be throwing while he's hitting the deck. our LT is as yet unproven, RT has been a problem, RG fair, C stll a ?, now remove a star LG you'll get pressure from both ends and up the middle. how will our QB be able to get the ball to Boldin??? now maybe in another year if some of the youngins develop we can afford to lose Waters but not now unless there are plans to add another sokid OL before this season. BTW Turk was a high 2nd round pick with a huge upside, don't underestimate his value to the right team. PIOLI would tell you 2nd roud picks are more coveted than first rounders since they have virtually the same success rate but at a much lower cost. again i agree boldin is an upgrade and is in the elite receivers discussion however is not a position of immediate need for us. we still have ? at DE, NT, LT, RG, RT, C, LB, FB



HUH? Pioli got TWO vet inner OL guys..... Goff and Ghiaciuc

Goff and Ghiaciuc BOTH can play EITHER center OR guard....

Pioli adding Ghiaciuc made me believe he was really going to shop Waters...

OL with out Waters:

LT: Albert/Taylor

LG: Goff/Ghiaciuc/Smith/Niswanger/Taylor

C: Niswanger/Ghiaciuc/Goff

RG: Ghiaciuc/Goff//Smith/Niswanger/H. Taylor/Richardson

RT: Mcintosh/Brown/Richardson



If anything we could use better LT/RT people (not much depth at LT)

Also, I think Taylor should be tried at LG... He is a a LEFT side OL guy and at his size (6'3 295) just seems to small for LT but SCREAMS LG!!!!

If the chiefs do send Waters packing I think we would be MORE then fine at all three (LG, C, RG) spots without him. RT is what really worries my still.

This could also be the year Smith shows what he's got? He was rated very high and is playing team 1's LG while Waters is home crying ATM. IF thats the case we are better off then I thought.


Albert----Smith/Taylor/Goff------Niswanger/Ghiaciuc----- --Goff/Richardson--------Mcintosh/Brown


LOL I hope some team gives us a 2nd for Waters.........


EDIT: Turk has done nothing for us in the 4-3 and will be even less of help as a OLB in the 3-4 hehe.

Tamba will surprise a LOT of people if he is able to pull off the rushing OLB spot, BUT if Turk can do the same he might win the most improved player of the year AND be the biggest Chiefs surprise in history!!!!

jmlamerson
05-21-2009, 03:24 PM
Your talking about an all pro guard who was unquestionably the best OL on one of the worst lines in the NFL. so ok lets trade him away and hope boldin is good at catching high fly balls cause our QB will be throwing while he's hitting the deck. our LT is as yet unproven, RT has been a problem, RG fair, C stll a ?, now remove a star LG you'll get pressure from both ends and up the middle. how will our QB be able to get the ball to Boldin??? now maybe in another year if some of the youngins develop we can afford to lose Waters but not now unless there are plans to add another sokid OL before this season. BTW Turk was a high 2nd round pick with a huge upside, don't underestimate his value to the right team. PIOLI would tell you 2nd roud picks are more coveted than first rounders since they have virtually the same success rate but at a much lower cost. again i agree boldin is an upgrade and is in the elite receivers discussion however is not a position of immediate need for us. we still have ? at DE, NT, LT, RG, RT, C, LB, FB

If we lose Waters, we'll probably move Goff to LG, Niswanger to RG, and put Ghiaciuc at C. Not to mention, we'd probably go after a FA (Tauscher or Levi Jones) for the RT spot, maybe moving McIntosh inside. That isn't a great line, but it could keep Cassel upright.

We have a ton of needs on this team. Herm left the cupboard bare. But we don't need to replace 4 of our 5 OL (Albert and Goff, at least, are good starters). We don't need LB this year. We have three young DEs in Magee, Dorsey, and Jackson. And FB? Are you serious? Who cares about FB?

This isn't Madden. We can't offer a 2nd rounder, a project player, and an over-the-hill vet to get a good NT. We maybe can offer a 2nd rounder, a project player, and an over-the-hill vet to get a top flight WR.

And WR isn't a need for us so long as Engram and Bradley stay healthy. Engram and Bradley are not the most healthy WRs to play the game. I like them both, but you can't sugar coat that fact.

For some reason, some people think you can win games without talented players. You can't. Youth is not a replacement for talent. We put a young, untalented team on the field last season, and we were lucky to win two games. The dropoff between Waters and Niswanger/Goff isn't nearly as great as the dropoff between Boldin and Engram/Bradley.

This is the easiest call a team could make.

P.S. 2nd round picks do have a lot of value. Turk was a reach in the 2nd round and is a miserable pro. We wasted that pick. It's time to move on. The road's littered with potential talent that was never actual talent.

chiefnut
05-21-2009, 04:14 PM
please don't misunderstand my point. i am not saying we must keep waters only that a 4 time probowler, 2 time all pro with 4-5 years left still has value. the difference between goff & waters is like engram & boldin. adequate stop gap but not in the same class. ghiaciuc worries me only in that if he showed alot of promise why didn't cincy attempt to resign him. our OLine will be better than last year but it's still a wait and see by how much. i'm also not defending Turks lack of success only that he still may have some value, probably a late round pick and we shouldn't toss him into a trade just to get rid of him.

jmlamerson
05-21-2009, 05:53 PM
please don't misunderstand my point. i am not saying we must keep waters only that a 4 time probowler, 2 time all pro with 4-5 years left still has value. the difference between goff & waters is like engram & boldin. adequate stop gap but not in the same class. ghiaciuc worries me only in that if he showed alot of promise why didn't cincy attempt to resign him. our OLine will be better than last year but it's still a wait and see by how much. i'm also not defending Turks lack of success only that he still may have some value, probably a late round pick and we shouldn't toss him into a trade just to get rid of him.

1. Waters only has 4-5 years left in your dreams. He'll be retiring in 2010 or 2011.

2. Turk has no value. No one would trade a 2045 7th rounder for him. He has been that worthless. Just because someone was drafted high doesn't mean they're valuable.

3. Ghiaciuc isn't very good, but he isn't terrible either. I'd rather have Goff at C than either he or Niswanger.

4. The difference between Boldin and Waters is that Boldin is entering his prime and Waters is past his.

5. It's a lot easier to find a good LG than a good WR.

I appreicate your love for Waters, but you have vastly overestimated his value to both this and other teams. He's a valuable, if over-the-hill, LG. He isn't even close to the equal 28-year-old pro bowl WR.

NWA Chief
05-21-2009, 08:53 PM
I dont want to give up Waters, but your either with us or against us....and Waters so far this offseason has been against us. Turk had no value for us in a 4-3 and theres a very high chance the same goes for our new 3-4 defense. I still want to know why Vrabel was not at the practices, he was brought here to show the young guys leadership and mentor them...this is a big time for him to be around. I personally thought Goff would be the starting Center in which if him and Waters are the Guards, I'm ok with that. I like Niswanger better than Guiachuic but he gives us depth. It's extremely depressing that there is absolutely noone out in the free agency that could help our team right now. Guess we will have to wait til the end of camps to see some guys fall through the cracks and into our laps....hopefully.

rodu
05-21-2009, 09:40 PM
Turk is destined for the CFL, and if we were to not trade Waters, it does not mean he'll play for us, he may hold out, which benefits us none

yashi
05-21-2009, 11:13 PM
3. Ghiaciuc isn't very good, but he isn't terrible either. I'd rather have Goff at C than either he or Niswanger.

It has to say something when Bengals fans are ecstatic about a guy leaving, and not because of his character. If Ghiaciuc is starting next season, I think we're going to have problems.

Bike
05-22-2009, 02:08 AM
I still want to know why Vrabel was not at the practices, he was brought here to show the young guys leadership and mentor them...this is a big time for him to be around.
I agree. Zack Thomas found the time and motivation to be here with these young guys. And I don't want to hear "he's a vet and doesn't need to be at these voluntary workouts" crap. Now is the time for Vrabel to begin relationships with his new teammates and coaches. He should be here.

josh1971
05-22-2009, 02:09 AM
It has to say something when Bengals fans are ecstatic about a guy leaving, and not because of his character. If Ghiaciuc is starting next season, I think we're going to have problems.

But then, maybe a change of scenery will do the guy good as a player, as it has for certain others. Remember a failed running back we drafted named Ethan Horton? He spent a number of seasons as a fairly successful tight end with the raiders after we cut him.

And there are many other stories like that.

We'll see, but I doubt the seventh seal will be broken if Ghiaciuc starts a few games for us.

jb

pbatrucker
05-22-2009, 04:13 AM
If you'll listen to Petro's podcast in the Redzone from Wednesday, you should feel a lot better about our OL.

Sn@keIze
05-22-2009, 04:25 AM
Where does Demario Williams fit into our system thus far. Anybody heard anything?

I know primarly as a backup, but you think hell make a roster spot? Maybe behind Hali?

yashi
05-22-2009, 11:49 AM
Where does Demario Williams fit into our system thus far. Anybody heard anything?

I know primarly as a backup, but you think hell make a roster spot? Maybe behind Hali?

He was playing ILB with the 2nd team. He's way too small to play OLB. 3-4 OLBs pretty much have to be 250+ lbs at a minimum so they can have a chance against an OT, and DeMorrio is 230 soaking wet. He could certainly play some OLB when we shift into 4-3 sets though.

chiefnut
05-22-2009, 01:21 PM
1. Waters only has 4-5 years left in your dreams. He'll be retiring in 2010 or 2011.

2. Turk has no value. No one would trade a 2045 7th rounder for him. He has been that worthless. Just because someone was drafted high doesn't mean they're valuable.

3. Ghiaciuc isn't very good, but he isn't terrible either. I'd rather have Goff at C than either he or Niswanger.

4. The difference between Boldin and Waters is that Boldin is entering his prime and Waters is past his.

5. It's a lot easier to find a good LG than a good WR.

I appreicate your love for Waters, but you have vastly overestimated his value to both this and other teams. He's a valuable, if over-the-hill, LG. He isn't even close to the equal 28-year-old pro bowl WR.

1.average lifespan of a great guard is 12-14years, waters will be in his 9th season so he can hang around barring injury for up to 5 years.

2. Turk came on last year to look better, not good but better. a young fast DE still worth a look from other clubs

3.goff is in his 12th season and has never been to the pro bowl so he IS over the hill. "Ghiaciuc isn't very good" yup your right on.

4. yeah waters has been around 3 whole years longer than boldin, he must be old enuf to be his big brother or sumpthin

5. actually a great WR is harder to find than a great guard but a good WR is easier to find than a good guard so we already have a better than good soon to be great WR in Bowe, and a couple of good #2's[at least for now]. i would luv to see boldin wearin KC RED but i just don't see this as a good trade.

how good will boldin be with double teams since he won't have fitzgerald on the other side? remember fitz has been there 4 of his 5 seasons

i thought i may be prejudiced as a CHIEFS fan so i ran this trade past 2 cowgirl and an eaglet fan. all pretty knowledgable football fans, consensus too much to give for boldin.

balto
05-22-2009, 02:40 PM
1.average lifespan of a great guard is 12-14years, waters will be in his 9th season so he can hang around barring injury for up to 5 years.

2. Turk came on last year to look better, not good but better. a young fast DE still worth a look from other clubs

3.goff is in his 12th season and has never been to the pro bowl so he IS over the hill. "Ghiaciuc isn't very good" yup your right on.

4. yeah waters has been around 3 whole years longer than boldin, he must be old enuf to be his big brother or sumpthin

5. actually a great WR is harder to find than a great guard but a good WR is easier to find than a good guard so we already have a better than good soon to be great WR in Bowe, and a couple of good #2's[at least for now]. i would luv to see boldin wearin KC RED but i just don't see this as a good trade.

how good will boldin be with double teams since he won't have fitzgerald on the other side? remember fitz has been there 4 of his 5 seasons

i thought i may be prejudiced as a CHIEFS fan so i ran this trade past 2 cowgirl and an eaglet fan. all pretty knowledgable football fans, consensus too much to give for boldin.


1) First off I see 10 years of exp for Waters everywhere I look not sure where you get 8, but maybe the internet sites are wrong /shrug , if not that cuts your 5 years down to 3 (kinda like TG now)

2) I'm glad you agree about Turk he has ZERO value to us now!!! BUT could be a ok backup guy for some other team and that is why we should include him in a trade hell maybe Boone too.

3) Goff is by far our best inner OL guy besides Waters and a GREAT pick up!!! Also, the only reason Cinnzy let go of Ghiaciuc is his contract and he can't stay healthy!!!! If he can rehab and stay healthy he should have ZERO problem starting over Niswanger at Center. If this happens Goff slides to LG Ghiaciuc at Center and Niswanger at RG with Taylor/smith being backups!!!

4) I think this point is just silly... I do not care if Waters was the BEST inner OL guy in History and in his PRIME hehe. I would give him up in a split sec for Boldin in his prime...... WR is SUCH a more important and harder talent to find then inner OL.

5) This kinda goes with #4, I disagree with you btw, its SOOO much easier to find a good guard over a WR!!!!!

josh1971
05-22-2009, 03:25 PM
Well, someone probably already posted this in another thread, but here's a great little story on the new center-

Kansas City Chiefs - Finding Opportunity (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2009/05/22/finding_opportunity/)

He seems to have a great attitude, and I'd rather have five guys like that than one guy who has been to the pro bowl, but is pouting and whining. I won't say who that is, but his name rhymes with Flyin Blotters.

As a side note, we drafted Barry Richardson in the same draft as Branden Albert. Have we even seen Richardson? I don't know much about him, but if we get a dominant right tackle out of the deal, that would be great. Bookends :D

jb

okikcfan
05-23-2009, 10:15 PM
so has anyone heard what the deal is with Waters?

pbatrucker
05-24-2009, 12:05 AM
We probably won;t know until mandatory workouts in a couple of weeks.

Three7s
05-24-2009, 03:23 AM
Waters is just being a baby, he's never been managed by a guy who isn't a player's coach before.