PDA

View Full Version : Salary Cap Question



dbolan
05-29-2009, 02:50 PM
If there is not going to be a cap next year and since we are so far under the cap right now....Why are we NOT signing some PEOPLE???

What am I missing here?

C'mon Lamerson...I know you know this stuff better than me!!

N TX Dave
05-29-2009, 03:16 PM
I am no expert on this subject but what I do know is the talk on NFL Network is there will be no salary cap and teams can start signing people as if there isn't one until after the 2009 season. If they violate that during the season they could face fines from the league, also could affect the draft . Depends on how the league handles it as I don't think that all the details are worked out on it yet because during the draft the commisioner and one of his aids were interviewed and they mentioned a need for meetings to take place regarding the players and some details they wouldn't elaberate on. I hope there is no salary cap after this season as the Hunts are one of if not the richest families in the league. We will get the best players to play for us without a cap :D

They might be one of the richest and yes they can spend the money the question is will they?

dbolan
05-29-2009, 03:49 PM
KC Chris,

I get ya but I am trying to say that if we are substantially under the cap now (which we are), why are we being stagnant on signing to top tier talent...For example, Anquan Boldin?

I don't think we should intentionally exceed the cap just because there may not be one next year but I would tend to think that we could use what we have now to get what we need.

jmlamerson
05-29-2009, 04:24 PM
KC Chris,

I get ya but I am trying to say that if we are substantially under the cap now (which we are), why are we being stagnant on signing to top tier talent...For example, Anquan Boldin?

I don't think we should intentionally exceed the cap just because there may not be one next year but I would tend to think that we could use what we have now to get what we need.

Thank you for the kind words above. :D

We haven't signed many people because there aren't that many people to sign. We didn't want to get locked into the insane contracts being handed out to questionable players at the beginning of free agency (Haynesworth, Vilma, Scott, etc.). Which was the way to go. Spending $20M a year on free agents like Bart Scott, Vilma, and Jason Brown gets us nowhere. We're not three, five, or maybe even ten players away right now. We have a nucleus of good young players (Carr, Flowers, Albert, Cassel, Bowe, Pollard, DJ, and maybe Page). We have a good group of savvy vets (Waters, Goff, Vrabel, Beisel, Zach Thomas). We have a whole lot of question marks elsewhere (LJ, Niswanger, Charles, Cottam, Dorsey, Bradley). We have our 2009 draft class. And we have some guys who will start because we have no one else (Tank, Edwards, Hali, McIntosh). We need a lot of help over the next couple years. A massive FA binge would have been the way to go if prices hadn't been so overinflated. Since they were, we did the only thing we could - sign cheap FAs and draft well.

The problem is that this was a top-heavy FA class. You had good players being overpaid by millions and a lot of middling to bad players. A guy like Marvin Harrison isn't a bad pickup in an abstract sense, but (1) we retard the growth of a young team; (2) we're playing a scheme he's unsuited for; and (3) we're not a player away from contention.

It doesn't help that KC isn't the preferred destination of most players. We're a small market and are 6-26 over the past two seasons. We could have made the same exact monetary offer to Vilma that the Saints did, and he still wouldn't have come here. We'd have to overpay mediocre guys (like we did with McIntosh a couple years ago) to get them in KC, which is the exact opposite of a good long term plan.

I'd love a list of FAs who you think we should get. Levi Jones and Mark Tauscher are the only two I can think of right now who would be good for us.

Also, I don't think there's any way the NFL ditches the salary cap. If there's no salary cap, a few teams will gain massive competitive advantages (Redskins, Cowboys, etc.), so the cap is good for most owners. Likewise, since NFL contracts aren't guarenteed, NFL teams would use the uncapped year to ditch each and every high priced player they can't currently dump for cap reasons. Future contracts would no longer be signing bonus based, and since NFL contracts aren't guarenteed, all but the very best players would lose out. The cap is good for the players. I don't see how both sides don't resolve this issue prior to 2010.

EDIT: We can;t just sign Boldin. We'd have to trade for him. I think we should, if the price is right.

dbolan
05-29-2009, 04:51 PM
Thank you for the kind words above. :D

We haven't signed many people because there aren't that many people to sign. We didn't want to get locked into the insane contracts being handed out to questionable players at the beginning of free agency (Haynesworth, Vilma, Scott, etc.). Which was the way to go. Spending $20M a year on free agents like Bart Scott, Vilma, and Jason Brown gets us nowhere. We're not three, five, or maybe even ten players away right now. We have a nucleus of good young players (Carr, Flowers, Albert, Cassel, Bowe, Pollard, DJ, and maybe Page). We have a good group of savvy vets (Waters, Goff, Vrabel, Beisel, Zach Thomas). We have a whole lot of question marks elsewhere (LJ, Niswanger, Charles, Cottam, Dorsey, Bradley). We have our 2009 draft class. And we have some guys who will start because we have no one else (Tank, Edwards, Hali, McIntosh). We need a lot of help over the next couple years. A massive FA binge would have been the way to go if prices hadn't been so overinflated. Since they were, we did the only thing we could - sign cheap FAs and draft well.

The problem is that this was a top-heavy FA class. You had good players being overpaid by millions and a lot of middling to bad players. A guy like Marvin Harrison isn't a bad pickup in an abstract sense, but (1) we retard the growth of a young team; (2) we're playing a scheme he's unsuited for; and (3) we're not a player away from contention.

It doesn't help that KC isn't the preferred destination of most players. We're a small market and are 6-26 over the past two seasons. We could have made the same exact monetary offer to Vilma that the Saints did, and he still wouldn't have come here. We'd have to overpay mediocre guys (like we did with McIntosh a couple years ago) to get them in KC, which is the exact opposite of a good long term plan.

I'd love a list of FAs who you think we should get. Levi Jones and Mark Tauscher are the only two I can think of right now who would be good for us.

Also, I don't think there's any way the NFL ditches the salary cap. If there's no salary cap, a few teams will gain massive competitive advantages (Redskins, Cowboys, etc.), so the cap is good for most owners. Likewise, since NFL contracts aren't guarenteed, NFL teams would use the uncapped year to ditch each and every high priced player they can't currently dump for cap reasons. Future contracts would no longer be signing bonus based, and since NFL contracts aren't guarenteed, all but the very best players would lose out. The cap is good for the players. I don't see how both sides don't resolve this issue prior to 2010.

EDIT: We can;t just sign Boldin. We'd have to trade for him. I think we should, if the price is right.

JM...I get ya.

I have not "compiled" a list of FA's but I was browsing through the list and then recalled some that have went elsewhere.

Although I surely know that we cannot sign everyone we want OR need at this time because of the holes we have, I would just like to see a signing of at least "1" proven, high output vet that will also provide longevity to the future of the team.

Honestly, whether it be a lineman on either side of the ball, a receiver, a DB or whomever.....I just really think we should use the available money to get a solid player that is worth the money and makes a strong contribution, rightfully so.

As for Anquan, I wish we could trade and pay for him but the price does have to be right. I agree there. But I "think" it is something the Chiefs could get done.

You have to admit....If he were lined up on the other side of Bowe, it would be a veeery nice advantage for us.

jmlamerson
05-29-2009, 05:09 PM
JM...I get ya.

I have not "compiled" a list of FA's but I was browsing through the list and then recalled some that have went elsewhere.

Although I surely know that we cannot sign everyone we want OR need at this time because of the holes we have, I would just like to see a signing of at least "1" proven, high output vet that will also provide longevity to the future of the team.

Honestly, whether it be a lineman on either side of the ball, a receiver, a DB or whomever.....I just really think we should use the available money to get a solid player that is worth the money and makes a strong contribution, rightfully so.

As for Anquan, I wish we could trade and pay for him but the price does have to be right. I agree there. But I "think" it is something the Chiefs could get done.

You have to admit....If he were lined up on the other side of Bowe, it would be a veeery nice advantage for us.

I'd love to get Boldin. He's tough and unafraid to go over the middle. He and Bowe would be the best WR tandem in the AFC West. By a longshot. I trade Waters, Turk, and the Tony G. 2nd for him in a heartbeat. Then sign Levi Jones for RT, move Niswanger to RG, Goff to LG, and start Ghuiaciac (sp?) at C. That is, of course, pretty improbable.

I understand your frustration. But I think you think there are better FAs out there than there really are. As much as I hate the idea of Tank/Edwards as our starting NT in 2009, there isn't a better NT on the market. I'm not a Page fan, but there isn't a better FS. We aren't doing better in FA than Engram and Bradley at WR. Or better than Hali at OLB.

Go and look at who's out there in FA. The pickings are slim.

yashi
05-29-2009, 05:41 PM
List of free agents by position... like he said, pickings are slim.

WalterFootball.com: 2009 NFL Free Agents - Quarterbacks (http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagents2009QB.php)

My personal opinion: we should have signed at least one big time free agent. We had/have the cap to do it, and money can't help us if it is not spent. Sure there are a ton of holes, but you have to start filling them somewhere.

Pro_Angler
05-29-2009, 06:33 PM
imagine an uncapped year or 2 and them teams trying to get back under the cap

jmlamerson
05-29-2009, 07:07 PM
WR Jerry Porter, Jaguars. Age: 31. http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/05/23.jpg
WR Joe Jurevicius, Browns. Age: 34. http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/05/23.jpg
WR Peerless Price, Bills. Age: 32. http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/05/23.jpg
WR/KR Dante Hall, Rams. Age: 30. http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/05/23.jpg (Maybe)
I would sign any of those guys if the price was right.

Not trying to sound sarcastic, but why would you want any of those guys? Are they better in any way that Bowe, Engram, Bradley, Copper, and Lawrence (our rookie)? All four are brittle and Price and Porter are massive underachievers. I don't see it.

jmlamerson
05-29-2009, 07:24 PM
List of free agents by position... like he said, pickings are slim.

WalterFootball.com: 2009 NFL Free Agents - Quarterbacks (http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagents2009QB.php)

My personal opinion: we should have signed at least one big time free agent. We had/have the cap to do it, and money can't help us if it is not spent. Sure there are a ton of holes, but you have to start filling them somewhere.

That is a neat site. It does kind of prove my point - there were a lot of good (an mediocre, and bad) players who got massively overpaid.

I'm not trying to sound like I'm running down the Chiefs, but we're going to have problems attracting legitimate talent as market prices until we start winning. For example, I'll bet Pioli went pretty whole hog after Chris Canty, who the Giants overpaid, and Igor Olshansky, who the Cowboys overpaid. Those are both top teams in big markets. We could have equaled their offers and we wouldn't have gotten them. We could have beat their offers by sizable margins and not gotten the players. If I'm Canty, and I have the choice of spending my prime on a major market, perennial contender in a weak conference or on a rebuilding small market team in the AFC, the choice is really easy.

I love the Chiefs, and I love KC. But come on. We didn't miss out on FAs because we were lazy or cheap. We missed out because we didn't want to double the offers of guys who would be here only for the massive payday, not for the team.

yashi
05-29-2009, 08:55 PM
I love the Chiefs, and I love KC. But come on. We didn't miss out on FAs because we were lazy or cheap. We missed out because we didn't want to double the offers of guys who would be here only for the massive payday, not for the team.

Maybe, but Pioli made it clear from the start that he wasn't going to be active at the beginning of free agency and instead go after guys who are still available towards the end, and it appears that's what happened. Sure a lot of guys don't want to sign with bad teams, but not all of them. The Rams signed Jason Brown and the Jags signed Big Game Torry Holt. Neither of those teams are exactly threats to win anything anytime soon.

jmlamerson
05-29-2009, 09:16 PM
Maybe, but Pioli made it clear from the start that he wasn't going to be active at the beginning of free agency and instead go after guys who are still available towards the end, and it appears that's what happened. Sure a lot of guys don't want to sign with bad teams, but not all of them. The Rams signed Jason Brown and the Jags signed Big Game Torry Holt. Neither of those teams are exactly threats to win anything anytime soon.

1. The Rams massively overpaid Brown ($8M a year for an OG/C ?!). I like him, but come on, he's not worth that by a long shot. The Rams will be losers for years based on the crazy signings they've made the past couple offseaons.

2. The Jags think they are a player or two away. Everyone forgets that they were preseason faves for a lot of writers last year. They overpaid for Holt, just as they overpaid for Porter, hoping that a WR or 2 will put them over the top.

I think (and I'll admit I have nothing to back it up) that Pioli realized pretty early that most big name FAs weren't coming to KC. And he thought it was better to deflate expectations than inflate them. If we're respectable in 2009, we're going to become more active afterword, mark it.

NWA Chief
05-29-2009, 09:35 PM
Guys, Pioli knows what he's doing. You don't just accidently be as high as he was in the Pats organization. Yes, he may be a little lost without Belichek but he is a smart man. I think he knows there isn't a lot out there in the FA so he's not picking up anyone. He knew ppl like Haynesworth weren't coming to KC and he hopes someone falls through the cracks when training camp ends. I would love to see Boldin in KC but there's a good chance he changed agents because he wants a deal done. What you guys might be needing is to not look at this year and think we have made mistakes by getting Pioli and Haley if we stink(which we could suck it up on the field) Think of all the cap space we will have if we dont just spend it all on a bunch of nobody's this offseason.

hometeam
05-29-2009, 09:58 PM
I doubt the season goes uncapped~ If it does, that just sucks. Salary caps help keep parity, and thats what makes the NFL great~

DT14PRIEST
05-29-2009, 11:50 PM
I'm not trying to sound like I'm running down the Chiefs, but we're going to have problems attracting legitimate talent as market prices until we start winning. For example, I'll bet Pioli went pretty whole hog after Chris Canty, who the Giants overpaid, and Igor Olshansky, who the Cowboys overpaid. Those are both top teams in big markets. We could have equaled their offers and we wouldn't have gotten them. We could have beat their offers by sizable margins and not gotten the players. If I'm Canty, and I have the choice of spending my prime on a major market, perennial contender in a weak conference or on a rebuilding small market team in the AFC, the choice is really easy.

I love the Chiefs, and I love KC. But come on. We didn't miss out on FAs because we were lazy or cheap. We missed out because we didn't want to double the offers of guys who would be here only for the massive payday, not for the team.

Really can't think of anything more to say about the present situation other then this!

Big Daddy Tek
05-31-2009, 12:11 AM
Another issue with throwing out tons of money to free agents because there will be no cap next year, is that there will eventually be a cap again. There is also a small chance that the NFL works out a deal with the Union and we do have a capped year. Those are obviously the 2 biggest reasons. Another thing that has not been pointed out is that Pioli is looking at the BIG picture. He knows that we have alot of money under the cap and has stated more than once that he is looking at the Chiefs of 2010 and 2011. With that said, maybe he doesnt like the value in this years free agent class and wants to reserve the money for next year. Maybe he just needs to see what we actually have under Haley coaching before he makes to many personnel changes. Whatever it is, we know one thing for sure. Pioli does NOT rush decisions, everything is drawn out and no risks are taken. This time next year, Pioli / Haley will know exactly what they have and what they need and that is when I see the Chiefs as a major player in free agency, player trading and pick trading.

AussieChiefsFan
05-31-2009, 12:13 AM
Another issue with throwing out tons of money to free agents because there will be no cap next year, is that there will eventually be a cap again. I think Pioli wants to be ahead of the curve in that situation. Another thing that has not been pointed out is that Pioli is looking at the BIG picture. He knows that we have alot of money under the cap and has stated more than once that he is looking at the Chiefs of 2010 and 2011. With that said, maybe he doesnt like the value in this years free agent class and wants to reserve the money for next year. Maybe he just needs to see what we actually have under Haley coaching before he makes to many personnel changes. Whatever it is, we know one thing for sure. Pioli does NOT rush decisions, everything is drawn out and no risks are taken. This time next year, Pioli / Haley will know exactly what they have and what they need and that is when I see the Chiefs as a major player in free agency, player trading and pick trading.
Well, Scott Pioli is very good at saving money (well he was at New England) so I wouldn't worry.:bananen_smilies046:

DT14PRIEST
05-31-2009, 03:46 AM
Pioli does NOT rush decisions, everything is drawn out and no risks are taken.


I don't know about no risks in retrospect I think some of the moves he's made thus far this offseason have been calculated risks.

jmlamerson
05-31-2009, 12:24 PM
Consider the systems Price and Porter played in then think about this,
Put either of them in the situation the Chiefs have now on a 1 yr contract . My thought would be they may have skills undetected due to team placement in their pasts. Then again I could be wrong.

I understand your logic. I just think you overrate those guys, especially Price. I don't see any of them as better than any the guys we have already on the roster. Of all positions on the team (except QB), we are the most set at WR. Giving reps to a guy in practice and on the field to a one-year guy like Porter at the expense of possible long term fixtures like Bradley, Copper, and Lawrence will only hurt us long-term, and if these WRs are as bad for us as they were for the Bills, Rams, Jags, etc., then it hurts us short-term too.

brish
05-31-2009, 09:39 PM
... Of all positions on the team (except QB), we are the most set at WR...

Don't forget CB, I like ours. :)