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chief31
06-07-2006, 12:21 PM
Saunders is gone,Solari is in.O.K. with me.Our offense will be fine this year with almost any coordinator in the league.(barring injury)
That's because of the "W" crew.Will; Willie; Weigmann; Waters and Welbourn.While I do feel that T-Rich was a major contributer,the nucleous of our blocking team is in tact.(Dunn and Gonzales are also a big part of that but their names don't start with W.):)
When a receiver has time to run his route and make his moves,he will get open.And if a quarterback has time to wait for him and still has room to step into his throw,he will get the ball to him.And if a halfback has enough time and space to get a couple yards head start before having to deal with defenders,then he will gain alot of yardage.And when all of these things happen,an offensive coordinator will be able to call plays with less disruption.
If your team has the best quarteback, halfback, receivers, and coordinator,but they have a weak offensive line.Then you will end up looking at Ryan Leaf, Ron Dayne, David Boston and Ron Turner.Any of these guys would be All-Pro players(or a head coach)if they had a truly dominant blocking team.Ron Dayne will be a fine example of that this season when he gets more carries with Denver.(although their O-line is only dominant because they are willing to end a players carreer to get the job done.)
Let me point out that there have been some truly exceptional players in the league.Players who can find a way to succeed with below average blocking teams.Peyton Manning came into the league with a sub-par O-line.Micheal Irvin made hurried throws look "pinpoint".And surely we've all seen what Barry Sanders did with no fullback and a severly handicapped O-line.Brett Favre; Jim Brown; Gayle Sayers;Terrell Owens(love him or hate him),just to name a few.But average players become exceptional when they have the time and space they need to show their skills.
Herm worries me a great deal, as a Chiefs fan.I trust him fully as a defensive coach.What worries me are these two facts.(1)Chad Pennington has been chronically injured for a reason.He has been under intense pressure from pass rushers for his entire carreer.(2)The Chiefs did not draft a blocker until the sixth round.Knowing full well that his current blocking team may only be around this season.
I, as much as about anyone, love a greot defense.But I feel that Winston Justice was the best player available when we made our first selection in the draft.We have some young talented players at DE.Rather anyone knows it or not.And if you take a good long look around the league,you'll find that an elite tackle only comes around in the first round.(The exception here being Walter Jones.)Top ten pick to be accurate.
Winston Justice slipped down the draft board quite a way.Most draft experts had him going in the top fifteen. All of them had him in the first round.He slipped so far because of "charcter issues".But, honestly, when was the last time a tackle made alot of news for "character issues"?
Anyway,enough of my sour grapes over Winston.I have hope for Herm.I just have alot of worries about him.I am, after all, a Chiefs fan.Worry is always a factor.

Chiefster
06-07-2006, 02:31 PM
Great article did you write it???? If you did I invite you to sign it and submit it to the Chiefs news category. Good stuff!

Guru
06-08-2006, 12:54 AM
Excellent read.

I am worried about Herm for about the same reasons. Let's just hope he will find a way to keep the offense going in the future so our next QB does not suffer like Pennington did.

Chiefster
06-08-2006, 02:25 AM
Guru wrote:
Excellent read.

I am worried about Herm for about the same reasons. Let's just hope he will find a way to keep the offense going in the future so our next QB does not suffer like Pennington did.

It is a great read; I was impressed; of course that isn't saying much. However, I did like it; brought up some very good points.

chief31
06-08-2006, 09:54 AM
Yes, I wrote it. That was a second(much shorter) version. My first attempt was erased by the site telling me "you have no right to post on this thread".
I'm not certain why it did that, but...I was a little salty after swallowing that particular pill.Since then,I copy every post before submission.

Chiefster
06-08-2006, 11:11 AM
chief31 wrote:
Yes, I wrote it. That was a second(much shorter) version. My first attempt was erased by the site telling me "you have no right to post on this thread".
I'm not certain why it did that, but...I was a little salty after swallowing that particular pill.Since then,I copy every post before submission.

Sorry about that; I too have no idea why it would do that, but I will bring it up to the Administrator. Still; it was a good article.

Guru
06-09-2006, 01:03 AM
That stinks. I would like to have read the complete article.

Chiefster
06-09-2006, 02:20 AM
Yup; I recommend writing it in Word first then doing the "copy and paste" thingy. ;-)

Guru
06-09-2006, 02:26 AM
Congrats on 400

Chiefster
06-09-2006, 03:14 AM
Guru wrote:
Congrats on 400

Thanks; your post count is coming right along as well. :-D

Guru
06-09-2006, 03:19 AM
I was within 100 of ya. The weekends kill me.

Chiefster
06-09-2006, 04:01 AM
Guru wrote:
I was within 100 of ya. The weekends kill me.

Eh, it's only because you have a life! :-D

Guru
06-09-2006, 04:04 AM
Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:
I was within 100 of ya. The weekends kill me.

Eh, it's only because you have a life! :-D

Well... if you consider having a life = siding my house. Then I guess I have a life. :pint:

chief31
06-09-2006, 10:54 AM
I'd like to add to my earlier post, the positive impact that Coach Vermiel had upon this franchise.Vermiel is the only N.F.L. coach,to my knowlege, who understands, fully, the absolute value of great blocking.
Great blockers create hall of fame "skill" position players.
Example? Emmitt Smith.I'm not here to bash Emmitt(and there are plenty of other examples in the history of the game),but certainly those who watched those Cowboy teams could see the huge head starts he was awarded against most defenses.Now, Emmitt is the all-time leading rusher for the N.F.L.(I'll lend some credibility to his longevity as well)
Even Emmitt will tell you he owes that to guys like; Larry Allen; Nate Newton; Jay Novacek; Eric Williams and "Moose"Johnston.
When a coach realizes that value, he can turn players like; Marshall Faulk; Priest Holmes; Isaac Bruce; Kurt Warner; Trent Green and; Eddie Kennison into more than they would have ever been otherwise.
My point in this addition is to lend some defense for Coach Vermiel,who has been getting beat up a bit by some writers and fans lately.Not to say that none of the criticism is waranted. For, certainly his weakness was not a lack in defensive knowlege,but, his undying loyalty to his coahing staff. This is more to point out the positive.Dick Vermiel put the Kansas City Chiefs back on the map. And I already miss him.
(hopefully I won't be crying for him this season :-D )

Chiefster
06-09-2006, 01:51 PM
chief31 wrote:
I'd like to add to my earlier post, the positive impact that Coach Vermiel had upon this franchise.Vermiel is the only N.F.L. coach,to my knowlege, who understands, fully, the absolute value of great blocking.
Great blockers create hall of fame "skill" position players.
Example? Emmitt Smith.I'm not here to bash Emmitt(and there are plenty of other examples in the history of the game),but certainly those who watched those Cowboy teams could see the huge head starts he was awarded against most defenses.Now, Emmitt is the all-time leading rusher for the N.F.L.(I'll lend some credibility to his longevity as well)
Even Emmitt will tell you he owes that to guys like; Larry Allen; Nate Newton; Jay Novacek; Eric Williams and "Moose"Johnston.
When a coach realizes that value, he can turn players like; Marshall Faulk; Priest Holmes; Isaac Bruce; Kurt Warner; Trent Green and; Eddie Kennison into more than they would have ever been otherwise.
My point in this addition is to lend some defense for Coach Vermiel,who has been getting beat up a bit by some writers and fans lately.Not to say that none of the criticism is waranted. For, certainly his weakness was not a lack in defensive knowlege,but, his undying loyalty to his coahing staff. This is more to point out the positive.Dick Vermiel put the Kansas City Chiefs back on the map. And I already miss him.
(hopefully I won't be crying for him this season :-D )

Agreed; any successful offense owes its success to the most part to it's "O" line. A poor offensive front = a poor offensive team. I've always said that Vermeil brought a great offense to Kansas City. My main criticism of the Chiefs has always been that they can't seem to be able to get both sides of the ball on the same high level - talent wise.

Guru
06-10-2006, 01:14 AM
chief31 wrote:
I'd like to add to my earlier post, the positive impact that Coach Vermiel had upon this franchise.Vermiel is the only N.F.L. coach,to my knowlege, who understands, fully, the absolute value of great blocking.
Great blockers create hall of fame "skill" position players.
Example? Emmitt Smith.I'm not here to bash Emmitt(and there are plenty of other examples in the history of the game),but certainly those who watched those Cowboy teams could see the huge head starts he was awarded against most defenses.Now, Emmitt is the all-time leading rusher for the N.F.L.(I'll lend some credibility to his longevity as well)
Even Emmitt will tell you he owes that to guys like; Larry Allen; Nate Newton; Jay Novacek; Eric Williams and "Moose"Johnston.
When a coach realizes that value, he can turn players like; Marshall Faulk; Priest Holmes; Isaac Bruce; Kurt Warner; Trent Green and; Eddie Kennison into more than they would have ever been otherwise.
My point in this addition is to lend some defense for Coach Vermiel,who has been getting beat up a bit by some writers and fans lately.Not to say that none of the criticism is waranted. For, certainly his weakness was not a lack in defensive knowlege,but, his undying loyalty to his coahing staff. This is more to point out the positive.Dick Vermiel put the Kansas City Chiefs back on the map. And I already miss him.
(hopefully I won't be crying for him this season :-D )

I loved DV and what he did for our offense. If only he would have admitted to his mistake of hiring Robinson and actually acted interested in the D. He upset me in that respect but without him our O would never become the MONSTER it did.

That being said, if Herm can just find some balance on this team, we would be the cream of the crop indeed.

Chiefster
06-10-2006, 01:53 AM
Guru wrote:


chief31 wrote:
I'd like to add to my earlier post, the positive impact that Coach Vermiel had upon this franchise.Vermiel is the only N.F.L. coach,to my knowlege, who understands, fully, the absolute value of great blocking.
Great blockers create hall of fame "skill" position players.
Example? Emmitt Smith.I'm not here to bash Emmitt(and there are plenty of other examples in the history of the game),but certainly those who watched those Cowboy teams could see the huge head starts he was awarded against most defenses.Now, Emmitt is the all-time leading rusher for the N.F.L.(I'll lend some credibility to his longevity as well)
Even Emmitt will tell you he owes that to guys like; Larry Allen; Nate Newton; Jay Novacek; Eric Williams and "Moose"Johnston.
When a coach realizes that value, he can turn players like; Marshall Faulk; Priest Holmes; Isaac Bruce; Kurt Warner; Trent Green and; Eddie Kennison into more than they would have ever been otherwise.
My point in this addition is to lend some defense for Coach Vermiel,who has been getting beat up a bit by some writers and fans lately.Not to say that none of the criticism is waranted. For, certainly his weakness was not a lack in defensive knowlege,but, his undying loyalty to his coahing staff. This is more to point out the positive.Dick Vermiel put the Kansas City Chiefs back on the map. And I already miss him.
(hopefully I won't be crying for him this season :-D )

I loved DV and what he did for our offense. If only he would have admitted to his mistake of hiring Robinson and actually acted interested in the D. He upset me in that respect but without him our O would never become the MONSTER it did.

That being said, if Herm can just find some balance on this team, we would be the cream of the crop indeed.

definitely; what I would like not to see is the return of Marty-ball.

Guru
06-10-2006, 02:35 AM
Eh, I can live with Marty ball as long as we win the games.

Chiefster
06-10-2006, 03:06 AM
Guru wrote:
Eh, I can live with Marty ball as long as we win the games.

It's the big game that I'm concerned with; the prevent defense in a close game that prevents you from winning or the playing not to lose. These game philosophies don't carry a team through the playoffs. 1993 was the only time I saw Marty-ball make it all the way to the AFC West Championship.

Guru
06-10-2006, 03:09 AM
Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:
Eh, I can live with Marty ball as long as we win the games.

It's the big game that I'm concerned with; the prevent defense in a close game that prevents you from winning or the playing not to lose. These game philosophies don't carry a team through the playoffs. 1993 was the only time I saw Marty-ball make it all the way to the AFC West Championship.

Well... All I can say is.... This is Herm-ball. He has always had a little more offense than Marty did when you think about it.

Chiefster
06-10-2006, 03:16 AM
Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:
Eh, I can live with Marty ball as long as we win the games.

It's the big game that I'm concerned with; the prevent defense in a close game that prevents you from winning or the playing not to lose. These game philosophies don't carry a team through the playoffs. 1993 was the only time I saw Marty-ball make it all the way to the AFC West Championship.

Well... All I can say is.... This is Herm-ball. He has always had a little more offense than Marty did when you think about it.

Man; I sure hope you're right.

Guru
06-10-2006, 03:29 AM
Chiefster wrote:

Man; I sure hope you're right.

Key words in there was "a little" :hammer:

Chiefster
06-10-2006, 03:52 AM
Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:

Man; I sure hope you're right.

Key words in there was "a little" :hammer:

:lol: Yeah, I did pick up on that...eventually. :-D

Guru
06-10-2006, 03:54 AM
Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:

Man; I sure hope you're right.

Key words in there was "a little" :hammer:

:lol: Yeah, I did pick up on that...eventually. :-D

Just a little slow http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/slow.gif there huh? :lol:

Chiefster
06-10-2006, 04:16 AM
Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:

Man; I sure hope you're right.

Key words in there was "a little" :hammer:

:lol: Yeah, I did pick up on that...eventually. :-D

Just a little slow http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/ there huh? :lol:

:lol: :lol:

When have ya ever known me to be anything but....

Guru
06-10-2006, 04:30 AM
Chiefster wrote:

:lol: :lol:

When have ya ever known me to be anything but....

:lol: :lol: Good point. :hammer:

Chiefster
06-11-2006, 10:28 AM
But, of course! 8-)

Halfcan
06-13-2006, 01:36 AM
Looks to me like we are going to be an unstoppable running machine, with the ocasional big pass play.

Chiefster
06-13-2006, 01:46 AM
Halfcan wrote:
Looks to me like we are going to be an unstoppable running machine, with the ocasional big pass play.

I'm thinking that LJ will break the 2000 yard mark.

Guru
06-13-2006, 02:19 AM
Halfcan wrote:
Looks to me like we are going to be an unstoppable running machine, with the ocasional big pass play.

If our outstanding line can stay injury free it will be.

Chiefster
06-13-2006, 02:35 AM
Guru wrote:


Halfcan wrote:
Looks to me like we are going to be an unstoppable running machine, with the ocasional big pass play.

If our outstanding line can stay injury free it will be.

Let us all hope and pray! ;-)

milkman
07-01-2006, 08:16 PM
New kid on the block, and I wasn't going to register, but I felt compelled to respond to this thread.

The premise that Dick Vermeil is the only coach that understands the value of an offensive line is ridiculous.

Every coach, and every team, understands the value.

The Chiefs in the 90s had an offensive line nearly as good as the Cowboys.

They just didn't have the talent at the skill positions that the 'Boys possessed.

Dick didn't bring that O-Line mentality to the Chiefs, it was left over from the Marty era.

Every team has drafted O-Line talent in the first round.

Some teams just haven't been as successful, because of poor evaluation or poor coaching.

milkman
07-01-2006, 08:23 PM
Well... All I can say is.... This is Herm-ball. He has always had a little more offense than Marty did when you think about it.

Marty had offense in Cleveland, and now has/had it in SD.

The difference is that Mike Brown didn't, and AJ Smith hasn't given Marty as much influence in player drafting and acquisition as Carl did.

Guru
07-02-2006, 02:21 AM
Damnit Carl!!!!

chief31
07-03-2006, 11:17 AM
The offensive line that was left behind from the Marty-ball days, is no longer in Kansas City. With Wil Shields being the only exception.

Waters' first season as a starter was also Vermiels first season as Chiefs head coach. Weigmans first season with the Chiefs was also, coincidentally, during Vermiels first season as Chiefs head coach. Welbourn, who is now retired, came to us in '04. As a replacement for the departed John Tait. Willie Roaf was also a Vermiel pick-up. Even Jason Dunn was not here to work with Marty. Albeight, he was here for one season before Vermiel came to town. However, he was on a one year contract at that time. Either way, the offensive line was not a dominant unit until Vermiel had had some time to work with them.

Nothing against Trent Green, but, under pressure, he tends to struggle... alot. Between the excellent personnel, and a very creative blocking scheme, Trent doesn't have to perform under regular pressure.

Kurt Warner is a decent quarterback. But does anyone actually believe that he is "MVP" material? Would anyone actually make the comparison of Kurt Warner to Peyton Manning? Or Brett Favre?

Runningbacks are on a similar curve. Who was Priest Holmes? How about Derrick Blaylock? Everbody knew who Marshall Faulk was before he got to St. Louis, but he sure didn't put up the numbers in Indianapolis that he did with the Rams.

As for the comparison between the Chiefs offensive line of the nineties being nearly as good as the Coboys' line of the same era...There really is no contest. As much as I loved Alt and Szott, and the running game in general, Larry Allen; Nate Newton; Eric Williams and Mark Tuinei were the "whole ball of wax". Run blocking and pass blocking alike. Add to them, Moose Johnston and you have one of the all-time best blocking crews ever assembled. In my opinion, Emmitt and Aikman were both players who may not have been long -term starters without that dominant blocking crew.

Dick Vermiel knows how to assemble, coach and employ great blocking teams like very few other coaches in the NFL. And, I maintain my opinion, that no other NFL coach understands the value of great blocking as well as Vermiel does.

Chiefster
07-03-2006, 12:15 PM
I tend to agree with your Marty-ball blocking, or lack thereof, theory. I can remember being totally disgusted with the Chiefs inability to provide Montana with just adequate blocking with a notable exception of the "94" game in Denver.

Guru
07-04-2006, 01:11 AM
Touchdown Willie Davis!!!!


OHHHHHHHH, BABY what a play!!!!!!!!

I miss Kevin Harlan on the radio broadcast.

Chiefster
07-04-2006, 04:14 AM
Guru wrote:
Touchdown Willie Davis!!!!


OHHHHHHHH, BABY what a play!!!!!!!!

I miss Kevin Harlan on the radio broadcast.

I will never forget that last TD play that sealed the "W". :-D

Guru
07-04-2006, 04:34 AM
Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:
Touchdown Willie Davis!!!!


OHHHHHHHH, BABY what a play!!!!!!!!

I miss Kevin Harlan on the radio broadcast.

I will never forget that last TD play that sealed the "W". :-D

That was the day I found out how many Chiefs fans were in my neighborhood at 11:20pm. A lot of people screaming for joy in their front yards. :pint:

Chiefster
07-04-2006, 12:34 PM
Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:


Guru wrote:
Touchdown Willie Davis!!!!


OHHHHHHHH, BABY what a play!!!!!!!!

I miss Kevin Harlan on the radio broadcast.

I will never forget that last TD play that sealed the "W". :-D

That was the day I found out how many Chiefs fans were in my neighborhood at 11:20pm. A lot of people screaming for joy in their front yards. :pint:



It was an instant classic moment in Chiefs History. :hammer:

milkman
07-09-2006, 03:48 PM
chief31 wrote:
The offensive line that was left behind from the Marty-ball days, is no longer in Kansas City. With Wil Shields being the only exception.

I realize that most of those players are gone, but that doesn't discount the fact that they were an outstanding group, and that it was a group assembled long before Dick came to KC.



Waters' first season as a starter was also Vermiels first season as Chiefs head coach. Weigmans first season with the Chiefs was also, coincidentally, during Vermiels first season as Chiefs head coach. Welbourn, who is now retired, came to us in '04. As a replacement for the departed John Tait. Willie Roaf was also a Vermiel pick-up. Even Jason Dunn was not here to work with Marty. Albeight, he was here for one season before Vermiel came to town. However, he was on a one year contract at that time. Either way, the offensive line was not a dominant unit until Vermiel had had some time to work with them.

That group that included Alt and Szott was pretty dominant, but with an aging Allen, and a bunch of scrubs, it was an underrated group.
The fact that the Chiefs during the 90's were usually among the league's top 5 rushing teams is a testament to how good they actually were.


Nothing against Trent Green, but, under pressure, he tends to struggle... alot. Between the excellent personnel, and a very creative blocking scheme, Trent doesn't have to perform under regular pressure.

Kurt Warner is a decent quarterback. But does anyone actually believe that he is "MVP" material? Would anyone actually make the comparison of Kurt Warner to Peyton Manning? Or Brett Favre?

Most QBs struggle under pressure.
There are very few Favre's, Montana's or Elway's.
Watch Peyton Manning.
Under pressure he's an average, at best, QB.


Runningbacks are on a similar curve. Who was Priest Holmes? How about Derrick Blaylock? Everbody knew who Marshall Faulk was before he got to St. Louis, but he sure didn't put up the numbers in Indianapolis that he did with the Rams.

Holmes was a good RB who put up a couple of 1000 yard seasons between injuries before he came to the Chiefs.
His rise in KC had as much to do with getting him in the right system, and utilizing his skills properly as having a talented O-Line in front of him.
I'm not discounting the O-Lines talent, but it was clear that Dick and Al didn't really know initially what kind of talent they had in Priest, but learned and adjusted quickly.


As for the comparison between the Chiefs offensive line of the nineties being nearly as good as the Coboys' line of the same era...There really is no contest. As much as I loved Alt and Szott, and the running game in general, Larry Allen; Nate Newton; Eric Williams and Mark Tuinei were the "whole ball of wax". Run blocking and pass blocking alike. Add to them, Moose Johnston and you have one of the all-time best blocking crews ever assembled. In my opinion, Emmitt and Aikman were both players who may not have been long -term starters without that dominant blocking crew.

While I think that both Aikman and Smith are both overrated to an extent, the fact is that Aikman was an extremely accurate and smart QB who's ability to make quick reads helped in his own pass protection.
And you simply don't put up the kind of record breaking numbers that Smith did without a measurable amount of talent.
To dismiss them as guys who wouldn't have been long term starters in this league completely destroys your credibility.
That might well be the dumbest assertion ever.


Dick Vermiel knows how to assemble, coach and employ great blocking teams like very few other coaches in the NFL. And, I maintain my opinion, that no other NFL coach understands the value of great blocking as well as Vermiel does.

That is clear, unadulterared homer bull.

chief31
07-09-2006, 09:06 PM
[quote]
Dick didn't bring that O-Line mentality to the Chiefs, it was left over from the Marty era.

This is the statement that I was aiming at with the description of our O-line.Wil Shields is the only thing "left over" from the Marty days. The O-line was becoming very weak in the years before Vermiel arrived. And this line is far better than any I've seen in K.C. ever.

[quote]
Holmes was a good RB who put up a couple of 1000 yard seasons between injuries before he came to the Chiefs.
His rise in KC had as much to do with getting him in the right system, and utilizing his skills properly as having a talented O-Line in front of him.
I'm not discounting the O-Lines talent, but it was clear that Dick and Al didn't really know initially what kind of talent they had in Priest, but learned and adjusted quickly.

Priest was a good RB....The incredible blocking of the Chiefs front made him a GREAT RB.(Same deal with Faulk)

[quote]
Most QBs struggle under pressure.
There are very few Favre's, Montana's or Elway's.
Watch Peyton Manning.
Under pressure he's an average, at best, QB.

Exactly my point. Green is not one of those, few, great quarterbacks. But somehow he puts up numbers that would post a good argument to the contrary. As for Manning, he became what he is by playing under pressure. He also found another way to beat pressure. He manages his blocking team at the line of scrimmage. Not 100 percent successful, but clearly he has proven himself as one of the rarest type of quarterbacks.

[quote]
That is clear, unadulterared homer bull.

Strong argument here. You could've added a "nya nya nya nya nya". It would have carried the same volume.

milkman
07-09-2006, 09:51 PM
Mike Holmgren in Seattle, Mike Shanahan in Denver, Brian Billick in Baltimore, Tom Coughlin in Jax.

These are just some coaches that have, or have had outstanding O-Lines recently.

To suggest Dick is the only coach that truly understands the importance of the O-Line is ludicrous.

I would submit to you that the reason the Chiefs O-Line is as good as it is now, is not because of Dick, but rather because of Carl.

It's the one area of talent eval that Carl has been consistent at since he was named the Chiefs GM.

chief31
07-10-2006, 11:43 AM
O.K. fine. I'll grant you my slight misuse of the word "only".
But, the only exception I can grant is Shannahan. And in my opinion, even his accomplishments, with regards to offensive production, fall very short in comparison.

And, does Carl then get the credit for the nearly identical offense that Vermiel brought to St. Louis? Just make the connection. Marshall Faulk - Priest Holmes. Kurt Warner - Trent Green. Orlando Pace - Willie Roaf. The similarities are undeniable. But if you choose to strip Vermiel of the credit he deserves, you have every right to your opinion.

But maybe, I can get you to look at the offensive production of each of the three teams he has been a head coach for, both before, and after his arrival. And at least acknowledge a bizarre trend of top-notch improvement. Because all three of those teams were, at best, below average before Coach V.

milkman
07-11-2006, 11:42 PM
I don't dispute that idea that Dick understands the value of a top notch O-Line.

I also don't (necessarily) dipute the idea that he recognizes, and nutures talent on the O-Line.

I only dipute the idea that he is the only one that realizes the importance.

I also don't dispute the assertion that Dick has an innate ability to recognize individual talents in his offensive players, and utilizes each properly, while at the same time maximizing offensive output.

chief31
07-12-2006, 09:53 AM
Awesome!! I figured it would take more than 4000 words for us to reach a common ground on this one, but we did it in less than 3500!

I'll be right beside anyone who wants to point out Vermiels inability to assemble a quality defensive coaching staff. However, I like to point out that he did accomplish something positive during his stay in K.C. Our offensive record books have been changed on alot of pages. And with so many verbal attacks on Coach Vermiel, I don't want anyone to forget what he's given us. We do still have at least one more season with the offensive line that he helped to assemble.

milkman
07-12-2006, 12:16 PM
I don't discount what Dick (and Al) did for the offense, but the fact remains, he failed as the HC of the KC Chiefs.

One playoff appearence in five years, and zero playoff wins is, regardless of how one spins it, failure.

While records are nice, on the end, I don't really give a rat's *** about that.

If, in his time, we had a pretty good offense with a pretty good defense, and that mixture combined to bring us a SB, then I would have been more than satisfied.

What we had with Dick is Oreo cookies, but no milk.

Guru
07-13-2006, 12:47 AM
milkman wrote:


What we had with Dick is Oreo cookies, but no milk.

And that really sucks!!!! :evil:

Without playoff wins, Vermiel was only average. I agree that he gave us a hell of an offense (with Al too) but it did not get us anywhere in the playoffs. And that is the bottom line....

chief31
07-13-2006, 11:02 AM
O.K. I rather prefer some milk with my oreos too. But,something keeps us eating those, plain assed cookies, each year. If I don't get any milk with the cookies, then, at least I have some cookies. If I can't have cookies, then I better have some damned milk.
We could have been starving for both, like the Bengals, or Cardinals fans had been for so long. Or, like I had done for so many summers, as a Cubs fan.

I, for one, am thankful for the Oreos.(And I hope that Herm can give us some milk before the cookies go bad.)
:pint:

:-D

KC-Krazo
07-13-2006, 10:04 PM
Vermel was our savior nope. Law will be the missing piece na. A full coaching staff on the same page . Both Offence and Defence will be the only way to get where we want to go. Me i like um both. But neither one is the missing link. Total mindset adjustment on the D side of the ball will help. And ball control on offence will be a huge help. If that means less big plays down the field so be it.If we keep up the huge down field passes we need to get a reciever that can fight through a defender and actually come up with the ball. We are poor in that aspect still.

Chiefster
07-16-2006, 07:05 PM
Great exchange! Speaking as a, pretty much, clueless Chiefs homer I thoroughly enjoyed it! :-)

chief31
09-10-2006, 07:43 PM
chief31 wrote:
I, as much as about anyone, love a greot defense.But I feel that Winston Justice was the best player available when we made our first selection in the draft.We have some young talented players at DE.Rather anyone knows it or not.And if you take a good long look around the league,you'll find that an elite tackle only comes around in the first round.(The exception here being Walter Jones.)Top ten pick to be accurate.
Winston Justice slipped down the draft board quite a way.Most draft experts had him going in the top fifteen. All of them had him in the first round.He slipped so far because of "charcter issues".But, honestly, when was the last time a tackle made alot of news for "character issues"?
Anyway,enough of my sour grapes over Winston.I have hope for Herm.I just have alot of worries about him.I am, after all, a Chiefs fan.Worry is always a factor.
:pint:

:-D
Man, this sure does make me look like a genius. (not to toot my own horn....)

Chiefster
09-12-2006, 09:06 AM
The future of our proud offense....



...Looks pretty bleak at the moment.

Guru
09-13-2006, 01:19 AM
Chiefster wrote:
The future of our proud offense....



...Looks pretty bleak at the moment.

bleak? Man, it is pushing up daisies.

Chiefster
09-13-2006, 01:43 AM
Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:
The future of our proud offense....



...Looks pretty bleak at the moment.

bleak? Man, it is pushing up daisies.

Here lies the Chiefs offense; proud it once was, but alas is no more. :cry:

kenny1937
09-13-2006, 04:33 AM
Is that Taps I hear? Please somebody, DO SOMETHING!
CALL 911, LOCK THE DOORS!! Go to plan B, Do something!!

:lol: :hammer:

Chiefster
09-13-2006, 10:57 AM
kenny1937 wrote:
Is that Taps I hear? Please somebody, DO SOMETHING!
CALL 911, LOCK THE DOORS!! Go to plan B, Do something!!

:lol: :hammer:


Clear!


ZAP!!!


BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEP!

prough91
09-13-2006, 08:23 PM
Gentlemen, I'm way too optimistic. Let's see how they're doing after the 49er game. It's a given they'll get their a** handed to them this weekend (unless the defense does some really really special things), that's just a given fact. I won't be attending our offense's funeral until they look like s*** for 4 games straight.

Guru
09-14-2006, 12:57 AM
prough91 wrote:
Gentlemen, I'm way too optimistic. Let's see how they're doing after the 49er game. It's a given they'll get their a** handed to them this weekend (unless the defense does some really really special things), that's just a given fact. I won't be attending our offense's funeral until they look like s*** for 4 games straight.

It's all in fun. If I were a fair-weather fan, I wouldn't be watching all 16 games every year. God How I wish I could say 17, 18, 19 or 20.

Chiefster
09-14-2006, 01:39 AM
Guru wrote:


prough91 wrote:
Gentlemen, I'm way too optimistic. Let's see how they're doing after the 49er game. It's a given they'll get their a** handed to them this weekend (unless the defense does some really really special things), that's just a given fact. I won't be attending our offense's funeral until they look like s*** for 4 games straight.

It's all in fun. If I were a fair-weather fan, I wouldn't be watching all 16 games every year. God How I wish I could say 17, 18, 19 or 20.

Ditto!

Guru
09-14-2006, 01:43 AM
I sure hope our OREO line shows up this week though. :-D

Chiefster
09-14-2006, 01:43 AM
prough91 wrote:
Gentlemen, I'm way too optimistic. Let's see how they're doing after the 49er game. It's a given they'll get their a** handed to them this weekend (unless the defense does some really really special things), that's just a given fact. I won't be attending our offense's funeral until they look like s*** for 4 games straight.

Optimism is a good thing. BTW, are they Oreos yet???




:lol: j/k

Guru
09-14-2006, 01:52 AM
Damn man, we are running the same sarcasm engine tonight. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Chiefster
09-14-2006, 02:08 AM
Guru wrote:
Damn man, we are running the same sarcasm engine tonight. :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yep!

Well it's been said that great minds think alike; not sure what our excuse is. LOL!

kenny1937
09-14-2006, 01:08 PM
Future? There is no Future with this line and QB situation, and we sure need something better than HermiBall to turn this bleak situation into a bright Future! GO CHIEF'S!!!!

:pint: (see only one drink, that's depressing)

Chiefster
09-14-2006, 01:50 PM
kenny1937 wrote:
Future? There is no Future with this line and QB situation, and we sure need something better than HermiBall to turn this bleak situation into a bright Future! GO CHIEF'S!!!!

:pint: (see only one drink, that's depressing)

Seriously, I think that we could replace Turley and Black with cheerleaders and do better.

kenny1937
09-15-2006, 02:28 AM
Chiefster wrote:


Seriously, I think that we could replace Turley and Black with cheerleaders and do better.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

It couldn't hurt Chiefster, it might just drive them donk's wild playing donky ball while we finally play Football!!
GO CHIEF'S!!

:pint: (see back to just one)

Chiefster
09-15-2006, 02:38 AM
Yup; at least cheerleaders could serve to "distract" the "D". :lol:

Guru
09-15-2006, 02:42 AM
Chiefster wrote:
Yup; at least cheerleaders could serve to "distract" the "D". :lol:

The Replacements

Great movie. :lol:

"Hey ref, just her from smackin her a** for 5 minutes!"

kenny1937
09-15-2006, 02:57 AM
Hey, we have hit upon it, we'll use Adam Sandler (i hope that I have spelled the WaterBoy actor's name right) He'll hit anything! Just what we need to protect our QB!


:pint: :lol:

Chiefster
09-15-2006, 06:13 AM
Guru wrote:


Chiefster wrote:
Yup; at least cheerleaders could serve to "distract" the "D". :lol:

The Replacements

Great movie. :lol:

"Hey ref, just her from smackin her a** for 5 minutes!"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Chiefster
09-15-2006, 06:15 AM
kenny1937 wrote:
Hey, we have hit upon it, we'll use Adam Sandler (i hope that I have spelled the WaterBoy actor's name right) He'll hit anything! Just what we need to protect our QB!


:pint: :lol:

At the very least maybe they'll get some high quality H2o.

Guru
09-15-2006, 06:27 AM
Thats asum thats asum quality H2O.

Bobby Buechet

Chiefster
09-15-2006, 06:33 AM
Guru wrote:
Thats asum thats asum quality H2O.

Bobby Buechet

Foozball is da debil!

Bobby Buechet's Momma

kenny1937
09-15-2006, 03:35 PM
Very Good Chiefster, very Good!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way does little Chiefster play to night?

Chiefster
09-15-2006, 07:54 PM
kenny1937 wrote:
Very Good Chiefster, very Good!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way does little Chiefster play to night?

No he plays tomorrow in KC MO actually; and the coaches have practiced him with the starting varsity "D" line all week.

prough91
09-16-2006, 12:26 AM
No he plays tomorrow in KC MO actually; and the coaches have practiced him with the starting varsity "D" line all week.

Maybe we can trade Ryan Sims for him. :-D

kenny1937
09-16-2006, 01:52 AM
Hey prough91, I have seen little chiefster, he is a good size boy, He might give Sims a run for his money, enjoy your post's, keep up the good work. GO CHIEF's!!!!



:pint: :lol: :lol:

prough91
09-16-2006, 02:05 AM
He looks like a horse! I bet at his age Chiefster has a hell of a grocery bill.

kenny1937
09-16-2006, 02:09 AM
You are a man of great intuition, I have seen him pack away the groceries, he is a good kid though, and loves football.

:pint: :lol: :lol:

Guru
09-16-2006, 02:18 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Chiefster
09-16-2006, 02:31 AM
prough91 wrote:
He looks like a horse! I bet at his age Chiefster has a hell of a grocery bill.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

My friend you have no idea. :-D

Chiefster
09-16-2006, 02:34 AM
kenny1937 wrote:
Hey prough91, I have seen little chiefster, he is a good size boy, He might give Sims a run for his money, enjoy your post's, keep up the good work. GO CHIEF's!!!!



:pint: :lol: :lol:

Yep, and...



kenny1937 wrote:
You are a man of great intuition, I have seen him pack away the groceries, he is a good kid though, and loves football.

:pint: :lol: :lol:

Yep!

Thanks for taking the reigns for while there K-dude whi;e I was away. :-D

Chiefster
09-16-2006, 02:41 AM
Hey Colby, The pic I have in my sig was when he was a Freshman. Wait until I get the pictures back from this year. :-D

As far as trading Sims for him; I'm down with that, I could use the moola. :lol: :lol: :lol:

prough91
09-17-2006, 02:20 AM
Chiefster wrote:
Hey Colby, The pic I have in my sig was when he was a Freshman. Wait until I get the pictures back from this year. :-D

As far as trading Sims for him; I'm down with that, I could use the moola. :lol: :lol: :lol:

To help with the grocery bill? :-D I can't believe he was just a freshman. He's developed like a lot older kid.

kenny1937
09-17-2006, 02:39 AM
And you would be right again prough91, He was on the wrestling team after football season last year, and won some matches, I wouldn't want to wrestle him, anyway nice chatting with you. GO CHIEF'S!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

chief31
12-08-2007, 08:27 AM
Here ya go, HH. One of my favorite of the "older" threads on this site. It includes a decent little argument too.

DrunkHillbilly
12-08-2007, 10:46 AM
It's the big game that I'm concerned with; the prevent defense in a close game that prevents you from winning or the playing not to lose. These game philosophies don't carry a team through the playoffs. 1993 was the only time I saw Marty-ball make it all the way to the AFC West Championship.
We have to get to the big game to be concerned with it!!

hermhater
12-09-2007, 02:04 AM
Here ya go, HH. One of my favorite of the "older" threads on this site. It includes a decent little argument too.


This is a true example of why you don't want to miss a single post on this site during Chiefs season.


:sign0098: