we can not give Smith what he is looking for...

Latest report Alex is looking for a deal in the 14 to 17 million range. you have got to be kidding. it is starting to become clear to me the two second rounders to land him was way to much. how can we give a qb of alex smiths talents 15 million a year. these qb salaries are getting out of control. i hope teddy bridgewater falls to #23 and we have tyler bray in the fold who is an extremely talented qb. wonder where his development is at? i am a big alex smith fan. i am. love his leadership and skills but i just dont think we can give him that kind of deal.

i will add that i think the eric berry and justin houston deals are more important to get done. i want smith to stay in kc but that kind of deal would be crazy.

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Originally Posted by stevefuller

i will add that i think the eric berry and justin houston deals are more important to get done. i want smith to stay in kc but that kind of deal would be crazy.

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Eric Berry more important than a quality QB? No, he's not. Safeties are a dime-a-dozen.

Plus, the Chiefs didn't give up two 2nd round choices for a loaner QB. This deal will get done with Alex.

Hence the debate. Just how good is Alex Smith? $14-17M is far below the market value for a top tier QB. Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, and even Jay Cutler received more from their teams. Both sides know this. We'll see how far this goes. We already saw the ramifications both ATL and BAL suffered last season as a result of overpaying B grade QB.

SteveF, It's an unpopular opinion, but I agree and always have. Two R2 was too much to give up for a QB that had no future in SF. I'd have walked away from the table and taken my lumps with a lesser QB like Ryan Fitzpatrick. KC may or may not have made the playoffs, but would have more cap space, last year's R2 already playing and another this year to draft a potential QBOTF in R1 or R2. The latter still sounds like the better option considering the team is rebuilding and purging salaries.

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Originally Posted by Mongo

Hence the debate. Just how good is Alex Smith? $14-17M is far below the market value for a top tier QB. Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, and even Jay Cutler received more from their teams. Both sides know this. We'll see how far this goes. We already saw the ramifications both ATL and BAL suffered last season as a result of overpaying B grade QB.

SteveF, It's an unpopular opinion, but I agree and always have. Two R2 was too much to give up for a QB that had no future in SF. I'd have walked away from the table and taken my lumps with a lesser QB like Ryan Fitzpatrick. KC may or may not have made the playoffs, but would have more cap space, last year's R2 already playing and another this year to draft a potential QBOTF in R1 or R2. The latter still sounds like the better option considering the team is rebuilding and purging salaries.

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Since when are we rebuilding? When did we start? I think you are incorrect about that part. I dont ha e a problem with what hes asking for I think it is fair. Atleast he knows hes no brady and ask to be overpaid like flacco which I actually like smith over flacco but just flacco was able to rip amd screw his team I dont see smith doing that.
Berry is the one im not sure if he deserves what he will want when he gets extended or becomes a free agent. Hes a little to inconsistent for me to pay him as a top safety. He needs to show up more in the passing game.

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Originally Posted by Mongo

.....this year to draft a potential QBOTF in R1 or R2. The latter still sounds like the better option considering the team is rebuilding and purging salaries.

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Draft a QB, huh? Hate to tell you this, but the Chiefs are ZERO for 17 drafting QB's since 1970. Regardless of the regime in place, or what round that QB was drafted in, or what school that QB came from. Every one of them has been a BUST.

Even Don Klosterman failed with his choice of Pete Beathard in the early 60's and Klosterman had a track record that few GM's could match when it came to drafting players.

Dorsey/Reid did the right thing going a different route to address the Chiefs QB situation, as opposed to spending high draft picks on QB's and they are not going to draft a better QB than Alex or draft a QB better than Bray or Daniels. Forget it.

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Originally Posted by brdempsey69

Eric Berry more important than a quality QB? No, he's not. Safeties are a dime-a-dozen.

Plus, the Chiefs didn't give up two 2nd round choices for a loaner QB. This deal will get done with Alex.

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This. Reid went after Smith the second he put on the arrowhead ball cap.

Right now the back/forth reports are just part of the business. After seeing the Tony Romo deal I'd bet a lot of agents are pushing for unreal money.

i am concerned that because we have given 2 seconds they will feel as if they have to get a deal completed with alex smith. i understand andy reid likes smith and wanted him in philly for years but at what annual salary? i think the 11 to 12 million is more than fair. i see this things killing us with what we can become. i see a one step forward we have a starting qb and three steps back cause we dont keep d bowe in house(becomes cap cut) we dont get eric berry extension and if he hits the market you just wait and see what he gets there...i like alex smith but no way at 15 million a year!

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Originally Posted by brdempsey69

Draft a QB, huh? Hate to tell you this, but the Chiefs are ZERO for 17 drafting QB's since 1970. Regardless of the regime in place, or what round that QB was drafted in, or what school that QB came from. Every one of them has been a BUST.

Even Don Klosterman failed with his choice of Pete Beathard in the early 60's and Klosterman had a track record that few GM's could match when it came to drafting players.

Dorsey/Reid did the right thing going a different route to address the Chiefs QB situation, as opposed to spending high draft picks on QB's and they are not going to draft a better QB than Alex or draft a QB better than Bray or Daniels. Forget it.

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Are you proposing there is some kind of curse? I bet Colts fans were glad their team didn't give up after Art Schlister and Jeff George busted. Seems other teams get it right once in a while. If GM savior John Dorsey is draft guru everyone says he is, drafting a future QB should be a snap.

Daniels and Bray -- gimme a break!

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Originally Posted by jason1981

Since when are we rebuilding? When did we start? I think you are incorrect about that part. I dont ha e a problem with what hes asking for I think it is fair. Atleast he knows hes no brady and ask to be overpaid like flacco which I actually like smith over flacco but just flacco was able to rip amd screw his team I dont see smith doing that.
Berry is the one im not sure if he deserves what he will want when he gets extended or becomes a free agent. Hes a little to inconsistent for me to pay him as a top safety. He needs to show up more in the passing game.

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I doubt Tom Condon feels that way. The story I read was that P.Manning wanted to be paid less than Brady. Condon went to PM's wife behind his back and took more money from the Broncs. Apparently PM was upset about it.

The agent's livelihood is dependent on getting as much for his client. Condon is a viper. I doubt there will be a hometown discount for KC. Al will get the best rate possible for a player of his ability.

Finally, what do you call it when you are replacing established starters with lesser or unproven players, en masse, while you purge off of your salary cap? Sounds like rebuilding to me.

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Originally Posted by stevefuller

i am concerned that because we have given 2 seconds they will feel as if they have to get a deal completed with alex smith. i understand andy reid likes smith and wanted him in philly for years but at what annual salary? i think the 11 to 12 million is more than fair. i see this things killing us with what we can become. i see a one step forward we have a starting qb and three steps back cause we dont keep d bowe in house(becomes cap cut) we dont get eric berry extension and if he hits the market you just wait and see what he gets there...i like alex smith but no way at 15 million a year!

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While it's true the market in Philly could've afforded a different contract..look at how they chose to spend their money (the dream team) and look at how that worked out. And no, don't see this team spending 15 mil a year on a QB.

Not convinced that losing Bowe or Berry would be as huge of a step back as losing Alex Smith would be. Smith's performance from word go, as well as his performance in the playoffs should be taken in consideration compared to what Bowe or Berry accomplished during the season. What has Berry done that's been so great? Bowe has all the talent in world, but he also has a track record of bad decisions and drops for no reason.

I have said this a million times I never understand the people who insist on having to draft a qb just to be able to say we drafted that QB. People complain about how bad we have been with the "rethreads" but the drafting success hasn't been any better. So if we should give up on one shouldn't we give up the other and just pack it in and go home?

Alex Smith was pretty damn good at the end of last year. I'll take that over hoping that a rookie turns out given that there is no Luck in the draft.

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Originally Posted by matthewschiefs

I have said this a million times I never understand the people who insist on having to draft a qb just to be able to say we drafted that QB. People complain about how bad we have been with the "rethreads" but the drafting success hasn't been any better. So if we should give up on one shouldn't we give up the other and just pack it in and go home?

Alex Smith was pretty damn good at the end of last year. I'll take that over hoping that a rookie turns out given that there is no Luck in the draft.

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When it comes to QB's...Believe it boils down to whether or not you've got a head coach that can develop rookie QB's. Until Reid hit the door, KC has not had a coach that's got a track record of making good QB's since Hank Stram. As much as I liked Marty, he was better off with signing veteran QB's than he ever was developing one (the only young QB I can recall that progressed under Marty was Drew Brees.) We shouldn't ever give up on the idea of a QBOTF, but I think that KC really has to look at the hand it's been dealt and consider if our QB situation really dictates needing to draft another QB, over other team needs.

Reid still needs to prove he can do it again in KC, but Tyler Bray's in the fold, and Chase Daniel really stepped up his game last preseason and during the last SD game.

Pay the man

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Originally Posted by Mongo

Are you proposing there is some kind of curse? I bet Colts fans were glad their team didn't give up after Art Schlister and Jeff George busted. Seems other teams get it right once in a while. If GM savior John Dorsey is draft guru everyone says he is, drafting a future QB should be a snap.

Daniels and Bray -- gimme a break!

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Call it whatever you want to, but regardless, you can take the ZERO for 17 since 1970 a FACT. I'm remember hearing the same song being sung just like you're singing about drafting a QB "being a snap" for Pioli/Haley and how did Stanzi work out?

Give you a break, huh? Suppose Bray didn't have the off-field issues and went back for his senior season and had a better year, than he did his junior season. Where do you think he'd go in this draft? Probably no lower than 3rd round & try naming one QB in this upcoming draft that has more upside than Bray does or can throw that football better. There aren't any. QB in this draft is a wasted pick.

The only QB I know of that the Chiefs have interviewed so far is Garappolo. There's been a lot of teams kicking the tires on him, so I'm not sure he'd be around past the second round anyway.

My hope is that Reid earns his rep in KC as a coach that makes QB's rich. Tyler has an incredible arm, and hopefully this preseason we'll get a good chance to see more of it.

Stanzi didn't get much of a chance, when he did he looked like a deer in the headlights. Between Pioli's interest in O-line and Brian Daboll's offensive scheme, he could not have been drafted into a worse situation.

While I also think $14-17 million (about 11-13% of total salary cap) is crazy money to pay for Alex Smith, I can't get upset with Reid, Dorsey or Hunt if we do in fact pay that kind of money.

Look at Bowe--$56 million for 5 years--$11.2 million per year for the contract.

Eric Berry--$50+ million for 6 years--$8.34 million per year for the contract. (And that contract goes back to 2010)

Look at what the Free Agents we lost got.....

Brandon Albert--$47 million for 5 years--$9.4 million per year.

Tyson Jackson--$25 million for 5 years--$5 million per year.

Jon Asamoah--$22.5 million for 5 years--$4.5 million per year.

Geoff Schwartz--$16.8 million for 4 years--$4.2 million per year.

Dexter McCluster--$9 million for 3 years--$3 million per year.

With these kinds of contracts is it any wonder Alex Smith is looking for big money?

From what I read Kaepernick is perfectly happy to play out his rookie contract (ends in 2014) and has no interest in talking for less than $20 million. And a lot of people thought he would get it until this latest legal hassle. But if he has a good year this coming year (and the legal problem doesn't put him in prison) his demand for $20 million surely won't go down. That is why he will probably pay the bimbo $1 million to just go away)

Is Kaepernick really worth 25-33% more than Smith?

Sadly, the Chiefs do not set the market for player worth. The NFL as a whole does by what they pay people.

And the market says a slightly better than average veteran QB is worth about $8-10 million, a good veteran QB is worth about $10-14 million, an "almost great" veteran QB is worth around $14-18 million and a "great" veteran QB is worth around $20 million.

Given the market, I think we will have done well if we can get Smith for between $13 and $15 million....especially if a decent chunk of that money was in incentives for making the playoffs and winning playoff games. (Dunno if that is legal).

I think Alex Smith should be a $12-$13 million QB. But I suspect we will wind up paying him about $15 million.

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Originally Posted by Pro_Angler

Pay the man

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Woa! Short, sweet and to the point!





...I like it! :smile

bottom line if your going to sign a qb at 15 million( iwould not give smith a dime over 10) u had better believe he is capable of taking you to the game and winning it...cause when you put that much cap space at qb your team roster will feel the affects!

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Originally Posted by stevefuller

bottom line if your going to sign a qb at 15 million( iwould not give smith a dime over 10) u had better believe he is capable of taking you to the game and winning it...cause when you put that much cap space at qb your team roster will feel the affects!

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In a way, you are right. But let's not kid ourselves.....if we don't pay Smith somewhere around $15 million he will become a free agent and go elsewhere where some team will certainly pay him $15 million or so. That is the way the NFL is today. There are no "home town discounts" except at the lower end of the pay scale.

So what are we supposed to do? Is Bray ready to step up? Chase Daniel?

Chase Daniel is going to cost us $3.4 million this year. $4.8 million next year. And that is the end of his contract. If he was the starter then and we were anything but bottom feeders he'd be wanting at least $10 million. A lot more than that if we made the playoffs.

Tyler Bray....Now Tyler is CHEAP. He cost roughly $400K last year, will cost us $500K this year and next year he's still only $600K. And then his contract is over. Because he was undrafted even if he did well then maybe we could sign him for somewhere around $6-$7 million, but I suspect it would be closer to $8-$10 million. That is what any halfway decent starting quarterback gets.

If you don't want to pay Alex Smith $15 million AND carry Daniels and Bray, then you have 2 choices......

1) Pay Alex Smith $15 million and dump Chase Daniel. That would save us $3.4 million this year and $4.8 million the next year. That would just about cover the difference between the $15 million we paid Smith and the $10 million you say is Smith's maximum value. But do you really want nothing behind Smith other than Tyler Bray? That is a pretty big gamble. Especially with the "concussion protocall" these days.

2) Or we could go with Chase Daniel and Tyler Bray. That would save us a TON of cash this year and next year but that seems like a pretty crazy gamble to me.

Steve.....I don't like the idea of paying Alex Smith $14-$17 million any more than you do. But instead of just telling us that Smith ain't worth a dime more than $10 million, please tell us your alternate solution.

We all want our Chiefs to win a playoff game and eventually a Super Bowl, but the salary cap is the salary cap and it is in place to help the owners become even more wealthy.

So what is your solution?

The Alex Smith scenario in KC is not the same as the Matt Cassel scenario. Pioli handed Cassel a big contract before he ever took a snap and never did bring in a viable backup to him. Alex proved last season that he is a quality QB & the best QB the Chiefs have had since Trent Green. And Alex showed more poise and command than we ever dreamed of seeing from Cassel and he did the same in SF in 2011 and 2012.

Bottom line is, if the Chiefs want to keep him, then they are going to have to work out a deal with him. Let him walk, and you may run the risk of having the Chiefs go right back to being bottom-feeders with no chance of any post-season success.

They can't let Alex walk, unless they're willing to gamble on Bray being the guy in 2015.

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Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan

We all want our Chiefs to win a playoff game and eventually a Super Bowl, but the salary cap is the salary cap and it is in place to help the owners become even more wealthy.

So what is your solution?

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The salary cap is in place to keep idiots like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder from totally blowing out the salary structure. It's there so the Pittsburghs, Green Bays and yes Kansas Cities can compete with the big markets.

There is no doubt the NFL is always looking to make a buck. So what? That's why you own a business, isn't it? To make money, right?

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Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan

We all want our Chiefs to win a playoff game and eventually a Super Bowl, but the salary cap is the salary cap and the NFL is in place to help the owners become even more wealthy.

So what is your solution?

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There, IFIFY!

Without smith were back to first pick in draft!!!

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Originally Posted by Mongo

The salary cap is in place to keep idiots like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder from totally blowing out the salary structure. It's there so the Pittsburghs, Green Bays and yes Kansas Cities can compete with the big markets.

There is no doubt the NFL is always looking to make a buck. So what? That's why you own a business, isn't it? To make money, right?

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I think you misinterpretted my post. My bad for not being clearer. I'm not against private industry. I owned a small business and still would if Pan American World Airways hadn't gone out of business owing me $283,000. And I currently work for a small business my family owns. I am not anti-business.

I understand why the salary cap is in place. But as a Chiefs fan I am annoyed as hell that the salary cap is pinching the Chiefs so much this year. I am not a "class warfare" guy. Just a Chiefs fan.

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Originally Posted by brdempsey69

The Alex Smith scenario in KC is not the same as the Matt Cassel scenario. Pioli handed Cassel a big contract before he ever took a snap and never did bring in a viable backup to him. Alex proved last season that he is a quality QB & the best QB the Chiefs have had since Trent Green. And Alex showed more poise and command than we ever dreamed of seeing from Cassel and he did the same in SF in 2011 and 2012.

Bottom line is, if the Chiefs want to keep him, then they are going to have to work out a deal with him. Let him walk, and you may run the risk of having the Chiefs go right back to being bottom-feeders with no chance of any post-season success.

They can't let Alex walk, unless they're willing to gamble on Bray being the guy in 2015.

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Either sign him with other FA and win now or let him walk and build for the future. It's time for Dorsey to stop half assing his plans.

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Originally Posted by NWO

Either sign him with other FA and win now or let him walk and build for the future. It's time for Dorsey to stop half assing his plans.

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They don't have the cap space right at the moment to sign Smith or other FA's. There is no half-arsing about it. They may have to wait until the season is over.

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Originally Posted by brdempsey69

They don't have the cap space right at the moment to sign Smith or other FA's. There is no half-arsing about it. They may have to wait until the season is over.

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And that might not be an entirely bad thing. A couple of months ago I was all for extending Alex Smith's contract. Having seen the new schedule I'm not so sure. Waiting until the end of the season is a gamble. If we make the playoffs again or maybe even win a playoff game, then Smith's agent will be looking for an even bigger contract than what he is looking for now. But we have a tough schedule this year and if we went 7-9 or 8-8 we might be able to sign a new contract with Smith for $11-$13 million instead of the $14-$17 million they are looking for now. But that is a crazy gamble. Even if we had a not so great season this year Smith could force us to franchise him and then we'd be paying him what???? $18-$19 million????

So in the end, I guess the big question is "Do we have somebody that can take over the QB slot in 2015 or 2016--2016 if we were to Franchise Smith for a year"? And would that somebody be any cheaper than about $15 million? And would he be as good or better than Smith?

One thing I have noticed is that contract extensions often have a 1st year salary that is crazy low but with a big signing bonus that is guaranteed spread over the life of the contract. So it is easily conceivable that we could extend Smith and still stay inside the salary cap this year. If we guaranteed $30-$40 million over 5 years we could probably get him for about $8 million this year as far as the cap is concerned (an increase of only $500K over the current contract. Of course we would wind up having to let some highly paid veterans go in 2015 as a result. But then it seems like we'll probably do that anyway.

Glad I'm not Dorsey.

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Originally Posted by brdempsey69

They don't have the cap space right at the moment to sign Smith or other FA's. There is no half-arsing about it. They may have to wait until the season is over.

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So Dorsey can give an average player another huge deal?

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Originally Posted by NWO

So Dorsey can give an average player another huge deal?

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What average player has Dorsey given a huge deal?

Bowe

And what was your solution? Release Bowe last year? Put that pipe down dude. Dorsey had no choice but to sign Bowe to a big contract. If you don't realize that then you are delusional. And let's remember....Bowe only cost us $4 million in cap space last year. Which is maybe about what we got out of him. He is going to cost us HUGE money this year ($12 million), but if he doesn't live up to that money then we can cut or trade him next year and gain $3.5 million in cap space. Those are the numbers and you can bet your sweet ash that Bowe knows them and will want to overperform this year because if he doesn't he's released and back to begging for a $4 million per year contract.

Those are the numbers. Good to check them before you talk.

Dorsey made the best of a bad situation with the contract he negotiated with Bowe.