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Thread: Pioli/Haley (The Negative Side)

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    Default Pioli/Haley (The Negative Side)


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    There are a bunch of threads defending Haley because there is a growing upheaval by the Chiefs fan base about this administration. Those who are defending him are TRUE Chiefs fans and believe and trust in probably ANYBODY who isn't Carl Peterson or Herm Edwards to lead them to "Great Football." I was probably the ONLY staunch supporter of Herman Edwards. But I also realize there is more than one way to skin a cat. That's why I'm still holding final judgement on the current Chiefs administration a while longer. But, I am starting to lean in a direction.

    There is something to be said for hard-nosed, disciplined football. It's ONE of the many ways to build and develop a football team. Lombardi, Parcells, Coughlan, Cowher, and Gruden are all examples of that type of approach working to a Championship level. You're also seeing that approach continued by Tomlin in Pittsburgh and a culture change in San Francisco being implemented by Mike Singletary. However, what you don't see by these "hard-nosed" coaches is the CONSTANT beratement of their players. You might see it every now and then like the Vernon Davis situation in SF last season, but you just don't see head coaches "butting heads" with so many players, so quickly. That was the knock on Haley BEFORE he became a head coach. Coaches who constantly do this to their players, just don't last long because they become unattractive to FAs and they quickly lose the locker room. (Which is already being whispered in KC after just 3 games.)

    Here's the problem. The Chiefs HAVE upgraded their defense. They were 31st in total defense last season. HORRIBLE. But, they were playing at an average offensive pace after the bye week and probably would have won 6-8 games last season if they were able to play anywhere close to average defense.

    THIS season, the Chiefs are 19th in rush defense and 20th in pass defense. They didn't do a whole lot to the defense other than change the scheme. They brought in Mike Vrabel through a trade and drafted Tyson Jackson who hasn't made an impact to this point. Everyone else was either here or were cheap free agents.

    They should've focused their personnel efforts on improving the offensive line and their LB corp instead of deciding to tear down both sides of the ball at the same time and scattering the help over the entire team. The ENTIRE TEAM didn't need an upgrade THIS SEASON. It's not possible to do so either.

    A strict focus on OL and LB improvement would've gone a lot further than their current strategy of "everything must go at once." The Chiefs' QB play last season was good enough that it didn't require bringing in your "franchise QB" if you weren't able to protect him. As it is, the Chiefs should be starting a QB who can scramble because there's a multi-million dollar investment sitting in the pocket getting killed. It's a poor strategy and poor use of resources.


    If the Chiefs drafted Aaron Curry at #3, they wouldn't need Vrabel. They could've then drafted an OL in the 2nd round and Magee in the 3rd. There were starting OL to be had in the next two rounds with Luigs in the 4th and Duke Robinson in the 5th. Hell, they could've gone with any number of DEs in the 2nd round and gone with OL for the next three rounds.

    EVERYONE knew the two key issues for the Chiefs were the OL and LBs last year. The LB issues have been addressed, but partly by luck in rookie FAs Mays and Belcher and by moving Hali outside. If we had a corp of Hali, DJ, Mays/Belcher, Curry and an OL of Albert, Waters, Luigs, Robinson and Britton (2nd rd), I just see a lot more movement toward improving than the addition of 2 DEs, a LB on the backside of his career and a "franchise QB" who we can't protect.

    Take a look at our draft picks rounds 3-7. One impact player... and he's the kicker (last pick in the draft). In rounds 3-5, you can find some starting OL talent. I just don't understand why, if your BIGGEST NEED is OL, why you'd only spend TWO picks on the OL in the first 5 rounds, over the last 7 drafts and 34 picks (in the top 5 rounds). Those 2 picks are Branden Albert and Colin Brown (who could've been had as a FA). This is a franchise problem, not just one particular coach. Vermeil drafted a pair of tackles in the 4th and 5th rounds in 2003 and THAT'S IT!! Those are ALL the OL the Chiefs have drafted in the first 5 rounds this ENTIRE DECADE!! At some point, you need to address this situation.

    The Jags spent their first two picks on OTs. One of them being 2nd rounder Ebon Britton, who is now their starting RT. Luigs is the backup center (and pushing the starter) in Cincinnati, who replaced their starter (which we subsequently picked up... then released). You'd think if replacing the center were an issue, it might be a little more urgent than finding ANOTHER nickel CB in the 4th rd, (which are MUCH easier to find on the free agent market.)

    If trading picks for RTs and RGs are a priority now, why couldn't they be DRAFTING OL when they could've had their choice, instead of other teams' backups? Duke Robinson, who went 24 picks AFTER the mysteriously injured Colin Brown, is now pushing a 9 year in Carolina, for the starting position.

    There are just a series of devastating gaffs that have been made by this administration that have led this team to be as bad as they are. From the extensive amount of time it took to hire the new G.M., to the dragging of the feet of firing Herm. Then, the hiring of Haley wasn't necessarily a mistake IF IF Haley was the guy Pioli wanted and wasn't just "the guy left over" because of the time Pioli took to hire a coach. The problem is that Pioli failed to surround Haley with a coaching staff that could help take some of the pressure off. If Haley was surrounded with an OC he trusted and believed in and a PROVEN, GOOD DC like Crennel, then Haley might be a Parcells type coach. But even Parcells has a QB coach and OC.

    Then, the draft showed several QUESTIONABLE decisions from the "reach" of Jackson, to drafting 2 DEs in the first 3 rounds, to the choice of Colin Brown. Then, there's the Brian Waters fiasco and the constant berating from Haley to all his players. Now, comes the stagnant play-calling and the 0-3 record from probably the most arrogant GM/HC tandem since Jerry Jones/Bill Parcells... if even that.

    This regime has decided to make their own problems to overcome rather than trying to correct and improve on the things that were already here. You can rant and rave about how poor this roster is because of Herm. You can say Pioli/Haley didn't have any idea that Tank, Dorsey, Hali, etc would be as good as they've been to this point, but that's all talent evaluation that should've done before the draft so they'd KNOW what they needed before the off season started.

    THE BIGGEST failure this administration has made thus far has been the inability to evaluate the offensive line. Again, these guys are hired and being paid to evaluate their players and to have a good idea of what they need. By not anticipating at least THIS level of play by Dorsey/Tank and the offensive line as a whole is a HUGE mistake... probably the BIGGEST mistake that has led us to this point.

    Pioli/Haley HAVE made their share of mistakes and have done their share of digging the grave they're now laying in and to say they deserve "3 years because that's what Herm got" is just a cop out. This animosity you're seeing by the fan base that's beginning to grow toward Haley in particular isn't just because of these first three games. It's a collective upheaval caused by their (Pioli/Haley) attitude, questionable (even at the time) decisions, and now their lack of results to support their behavior since they've been in charge of the Kansas City Chiefs.

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    Good read man!!
    The only reason a beer sweats around Canada is because he's decided it will be the next beer he drinks.

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    I must say that myself as well as a number of other people in the crowd was surprised at the draft and by not addressing the OL problems during FA.
    I on the other hand will remain loyal to the current administration until they prove themselves unworthy. The only reporters making Haley out to be a raven maniac is the Star and especially Whitlock. Yes he gets in players faces and he probably uses a few choice words, bot IMO he is trying to coach the players and to hold them accountable.
    Haley is being blamed for all the personnel dicisions when IMO Pioli has most of the say in that matter.
    As far as coaches. By the time Pioli was hired and he chose Haley the cupboard was pretty bare. Romeo Crennel had a hip replaced and I believe turned Pioli down on his offer to come to KC as DC. I'm hoping Crennel has recovered and will be hired for next year because Pendegrast sucks.
    It is apparent from your other posts that you were a CP and Herm suporter and are unhappy they are gone. When you get to KC why don't you look up your buddy Whitlock , the two of you can have a wonderful time bashing the Chiefs.

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    whats with the altering clear text bold text thing?

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    Good post. I have been one that has been trying to stay postive on hailey and pioli. And while i have said they need time i do agree I dont think that they should get 3 years. I think that Next season if this team does not show improvement its time to at least decided if Hailey is right for the head coach. But I think that its far to early to say they have failed. I have seen some things I have liked and some things that have me wondering if they will work out. but we will just have to wait and see.

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    Good post, but I think it's awful easy to play Monday morning quarterback.
    I agreed with the taking a defensive player in the 1st round. We did have the worst defense in the league and absolutely no pass rush last year. This had to be addressed. I also thought the Chiefs got a good deal in getting Cassell and Vrabel for a 2nd round pick. The Chiefs could have went for a OL like Robinson later in the draft, but I'm a bigger fan of getting proven OL talent in free agency. This team had plenty of cap room and there were plenty of OL free agents that could have helped this team protect their "franchise QB" investment.

    Gailey should never have been let go. Period. Haley is a first year head coach and should have focused on that responsibility. I think even he would admit this was a mistake looking back on it.

    I still think this team is heading in the right direction. Things just aren't going to turn around as quickly as I had hoped.


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    Tex you do have a good read there, props to that.

    Alas, if I may, Pioli and Haley were hired much too late in order to get a true evaluation of the talent that they were left with. They obviously were aware of the horrible defense that Herm put on the field last year, thus the acquisition of two DE in the draft. They knew that they were going to change up the scheme and were more than likely a bit apprehensive about the talent that was here. The jury is still out on whether or not Jackson and Magee will be a long term fit in KC due to the time that it takes to develop a great DE in this scheme.

    We must remember that this is both Pioli/Haleys first rodeo, so to speak in their respective positions. They've told us from day one that this wouldn't be an easy, pretty or quick turnaround. Can you imagine, when you step back and look at this at the grand scheme of all this, exactly how much work has been involved for both of these men in the last 9 months?
    They are obviously trying to turn the ship around but its a big boat. Its hard to find the stud linemen that we all want at this point in the season, not to mention it would take even longer for them to learn the playbook and their teammates.

    As for Haleys attitude towards the players, well, I'm not sure. I do know that he exhibits some fire and wants to win, which to me is a step forward from Herm. I'm not sure that his way is the best way for all involved but he damn sure makes it known to everyone including the fans that he will not tolerate any BS. As I said before, it is his first year and I'm sure that everything is coming at him at blinding speed, sort of like a first year player where the game is just too fast for him at first. Hopefully he'll see that there is just too much work for one man to do and he'll start delegating a little to some of the asst's, the speed will slow for him and we'll have a good coach for yrs to come.

    I'm gonna give the entire org a little leeway this and next yr. I know that they probably wont set the world on fire and am not expecting it. The only thing I expect is steady improvement week after week. Last week was bad, I'll give you that but there were quite a few teams that I expected to win handily, get their butts kicked. It happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reded View Post
    Can you imagine, when you step back and look at this at the grand scheme of all this, exactly how much work has been involved for both of these men in the last 9 months?
    They are obviously trying to turn the ship around but its a big boat. Its hard to find the stud linemen that we all want at this point in the season, not to mention it would take even longer for them to learn the playbook and their teammates.
    It is pretty amazing how much change has taken place in the last 9 months.
    New GM
    New Coach
    New OC
    New DC
    New QB
    New offensive scheme
    New 3-4 defensive scheme

    Pretty much everything has changed. It is pretty unrealistic to think that everything would fall into place perfectly by Week 1,2, or 3. I see improvement in lots of places. And room for improvement in even more places.
    Last edited by Coach; 09-29-2009 at 08:22 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    It is pretty amazing how much change has taken place in the last 9 months.
    New GM
    New Coach
    New OC
    New DC
    New QB
    New offensive scheme
    New 3-4 defensive scheme

    Pretty much everything has changed. It is pretty unrealistic to think that everything would fall into place perfectly by Week 1,2, or 3. I see improvement in lots of places. And room for improvement in even more places.
    great post texaschief! rep Coach-I agree with what you said too, however, given that Pioli is supposed to be some sort of Guru(sorry Guru) with personnel, why oh why are we still trying out linemen? It's like a scratched record. For the last two years the cry for O-line...the cry for O-line....the cry for O-line.... has gone unheard. You would think that they would want to protect Matt as much as possible. I know, I'm starting to sound like said record.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    It is pretty amazing how much change has taken place in the last 9 months.
    New GM
    New Coach
    New OC
    New DC
    New QB
    New offensive scheme
    New 3-4 defensive scheme

    Pretty much everything has changed. It is pretty unrealistic to think that everything would fall into place perfectly by Week 1,2, or 3. I see improvement in lots of places. And room for improvement in even more places.
    But don't you think this is part of the problem? Why not stick with what was AT LEAST an top 20 offense until your defense caught up? It's IMPOSSIBLE to make these broad, sweeping changes when you're doing everything at once. If the defense was #1 on your priority, do EVERYTHING YOU CAN to improve that facet of your team instead of tearing down everything around you (including somethings that worked). While I understand the mentality of new administration so everything must go, in today's NFL, you can't make that big of a change and expect people to show up for the games.

    Gailey and the Chiefs offense had figured some stuff out by the end of last season. Why mess with something that could have AT LEAST been presentable for a year until you could place ALL your focus on the offense, the FOLLOWING off season?

    If the defense HAD to be fixed (which it did), why are we still sitting on 16 million under the cap, heading into an uncapped season?! It may have only gotten you two or three guys, but damnit, we PROBABLY wouldn't be talking about how far of a reach Jackson was.

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