Hailey and pioli deserve no time??????????

[matthewschiefs]

Ok far to many people are jumping on Todd Hailey and Scott Pioli for the current chiefs problems. ITS BEEN 5 games. Its far to early to say that they have the team that they truely want in KC. Did i miss the part were the chiefs could go to everyteam say what players they want and could just take no. No becuse that never happend. One offseason is not enough time to truely build a team. I am sorry thats just what i think. This team was not going to magicly be a superbowl contender due to Herm and Carl leaveing. Its going to take at least this season and the next offseason for the big improvemnet. This is a young team that needs to learn how to win. That takes time.

Herm Edwards was given 3 freaking years to build a team and win games. HE FAILED! That is not Pioli or haileys fault. Belive me I would love if herm turned out to be the best coach the chiefs have ever had. That would mean the Chiefs would not be in the current spot they are in. IMO its still far to early to judge the new managment. I am not saying that they should be given 3 years If there is not a big improvement after next season then its time for one or the other to be let go. And i will say that then. But for now i am still hopeful that this is the start of a good managment group in KC. The two deserve time to be given a chance. I for one am willing to give that to them. Talk to me after next season then you can realy judge.

[josh1971]

Well should we maybe talk about the players Pioli/Haley DID select. The draft, for instance.
Jackson ?
Cassell ?
Vrabel
Magee ?
Washington ?
Colin Brown ?
Lawrence ?
J. Williams ?
O'Connell ?
Succup

Jackson, we'll see, but Cassell has been doing fine, considering the other weapons he has. In fact, I think he's done great considering he has no run game to take the pressure off the passing game. I do have to agree though, that most of this draft class seems incredibly underwhelming.

And later aquisitions...

Mike Brown ?
Ndukwe ?
Alleman ?
Copper ?
Engram ?
Goff ?
Mays
O'Callaghan ?
Pope ?
Ryan ?
Wade

Lot of question marks based on performances thus far imo..

Some of those guys, like Alleman, we've hardly gotten to see on the field. O'Callaghan has played in what... 2 games? Pope as well.

By Ryan, do you mean Sean Ryan? 13 catches, 124 yards, and 2 TD- he's doing just fine.

We do have a need for some more talented players to come in here, and hopefully that will happen. But not all the players picked up in this offseason are bad.

jb

[CapitalT]

If he can't do any better than Herm with the same talent ... I'd say he's got 11 games to get 3 wins.

[josh1971]

But Haley doesn't have the same talent. He got rid of Macintosh, Thigpen, and (Hallowed be his name) Bernard Pollard.

Clearly, we were horribly weakened by those losses.


(Really, the only loss that hurt us was TG)
jb

[hometeam]

I think you have to seperate them.

Pioli as GM should have more time before you start calling for his head than Haley as a HC.

GM is definately a long term position. Also, you have to remember, as GM you have to work with what you have available, im sure there where lots of players in the offseason that Pioli would like to have gotten, but that didnt want to come to KC.

Haley on the other hand boasted himself that X amount of guys off the street can win 2 games. So, lets see it before the seasons out, or he has signed his own resignation~

[matthewschiefs]

Just look at this weeks oppent. rewind a year ago and redskins fans were loveing zorn now they want him gone now. Its Far to early to judge IMO end of story.

[texaschief]

Even after you factor in the first 5 weeks of last season, the Chiefs were 23rd in total offense. After implementing the new offense, they were a top 12 offense last season. I don't care if you want to call it "gimmick," "fake," a "college system," or whatever, the bottom line is that Gailey was able to produce with the talent he had last season and credit goes to Herm Edwards for allowing Gailey to conjure up something that would allow this team to perform on a NFL level.

Since that time, Haley has fired Gailey, his RG, RT, and changed QBs while replacing most of them with lesser talent. The result is an offense that ranks 31st in the league. That goes to the heart of evaluating a head coach.

As I've said before, with the way the NFL is currently constructed, it's impossible to change everything in one year and expect to win. There are only two scenarios at this point. Either Pioli/Haley aren't interested in winning and are just trying to identify players on which to build, or they're idiots.

I think Pioli falls in the former and Haley is somewhere in the middle. Pioli made a GREAT trade to bring in Matt Cassel as his franchise QB. It wasn't a move I thought was necessary for THIS season, but he got great value and Cassel absolutely has potential if he'd learn how to get rid of the ball.

But Pioli brought in his "franchise QB" without either
A) properly evaluating the offensive line that was in place or
B) caring to protect his huge investment.
This is a clear failure, ESPECIALLY if Cassel ends up getting injured before the season is over.

Then, he drafts DEs in the first and third rounds without properly identifying Dorsey as a more than capable starter in the 3-4. Another failure. Then, to top off that little mistake... neither of his draft picks who SHOULD be outperforming Glenn Dorsey at DE, are producing. Jackson and Magee may become good starters for this defense at some point down the road, but they weren't essential for THIS TEAM, THIS YEAR. Period.

What IS essential, however is a capable offensive line that can protect Matt Cassel and the firing of McIntosh (horrible as he was) without first securing at least a comparable replacement is another massive failure.

It's not just the play calling. It's not just the product on the field. It's a series of questionable decisions that have been made up to this point. It seems like people just want to give them a pass on legitimately questionable decisions that have been made since January, just because he was with the Patriots or they are from the Parcells tree.

I would LOVE to have a Parcells type disciplinarian coach than a Tony Dungy/Herm Edwards nice guy, laid back type. But the way Haley is going about his coaching and the way he's evaluating isn't Pacells-esque. Haley sent the coaches off the field during practice friday, leaving the veterans on the team to finish the drills and other crap that had to be done. This was something he's seen Parcells do before when he thought the team was being sloppy and lazy. In reality, Parcells did this 3 times during his 23 year head coaching career. Haley has done it already once in 5 weeks.

There really is a fine line that you have to walk when you decide you're going to be a disciplinarian-type coach and Todd Haley isn't walking that line. His antics are going to wear thin REAL fast and he's going to lose the locker room. This happens in every sport. You see it a lot in baseball. Losing the clubhouse is usually doom for any coach.

You don't really see Haley yelling at the defensive players as much as the offensive players. I think a big reason for this is because this team has been working on the same defensive scheme since OTA's. The offense however, is a brand new scheme that Haley decided to implement one week before the season started. Does that REALLY seem like someone who's capable of making consistently good decisions?

I said this in December and I'm saying it again. Clark Hunt made a bad decision taking so long to hire his new GM. He should've had his guy in place the week after the season ended. It may have been a Pioli issue as well, but the fact that it took so long to get him in place REALLY hurt the player evaluation process. Then, taking so long to fire Edwards was another blow followed by the LOOOONG time it took to find the next head coach. They had a little over a month to evaluate current players before the draft. That hurt us in April. You're seeing that now with the 20 hits Cassel took and the combined 5 tkls TJ and Magee have combined for. One bad draft isn't a reason to fire a GM though. Neither is being the worst team in the league and having the most money to spend.... as long as he has a legitimate reason.

I'm more than willing to give Scott Pioli MORE than 5 years. GMs and head coaches shouldn't be judged by the same criteria. I have a feeling Scott Pioli has an idea of what needs to be done and he has a plan. The patient approach I have with Pioli also stems from the fact that he has a pretty good resume that supports him and warrants the decision to make him the GM of the Kansas City Chiefs. (Something Haley doesn't have)

It's obvious that his #1 priority was to change the defense over to the 3-4. The defense has shown dramatic improvement and while we're actually ranked last in the league in total defense, you have to remember that we've played the #1, #2, #5, and #8 offenses in 4 of the first 5 weeks. I doubt you're going to find too many people who have watched the games that think we've regressed defensively.

However, the transition that has been made could've been made with the players that were either already here or with the free agents we signed. We have ONE player who Pioli brought in who is playing at a level higher than the player he replaced, and that's Mike Vrabel. Neither Mays or Belcher are playing better than Derrick Johnson. Hali has made the transition as seemlessly as can be expected... as has Dorsey. Both he and Gilberry are playing at a higher level than Jackson and Magee. Mike Brown is a lateral move AT BEST from Bernard Pollard. The rest of the defense is the same.

The thing that just bothers me so much about this transition is the coaching staff. Why, if you're Scott Pioli, would you trust this (your first GM job and first rebuild) with someone who has hardly ANY experience as a talent evaluator, even less experience as an offensive coordinator and even less experience as a head coach? Then, if you DO decide he IS your guy, why the hell don't you surround him with the best coaches to give him the best chance to succeed? Wait, what am I saying... he'd just fire them anyway.

But mainly, why is Haley your guy? What has he done during his career that has instilled such a sense of trust that this guy is going to get it right? He made his name by publicly berating one of the best WRs in the league and it's been nothing but more of the same since he's been here.

Pioli/Haley shouldn't be Pioli/Haley. They should be separated for the different decisions each of them make individually. I will say however, from this point forward, that whoever the GM is in each May from this point forward, needs to be fired until the O-line is addressed. I don't care who you are or where you live or what your priority is at this point in your life, if you are going to be the GM for the Kansas City Chiefs, you have to know that the offensive line needs to be rebuilt. PERIOD. Either bring in pro bowl caliber players in free agency or keep spending draft picks on the O-line until you've addressed the problem. If you think the defense is the problem, it's because you haven't opened your eyes and realized the defense is probably giving up points because its on the field way too much.

Fix the O-line.

[hometeam]

^ +1

[Bike]

Even after you factor in the first 5 weeks of last season, the Chiefs were 23rd in total offense. After implementing the new offense, they were a top 12 offense last season. I don't care if you want to call it "gimmick," "fake," a "college system," or whatever, the bottom line is that Gailey was able to produce with the talent he had last season and credit goes to Herm Edwards for allowing Gailey to conjure up something that would allow this team to perform on a NFL level.

Since that time, Haley has fired Gailey, his RG, RT, and changed QBs while replacing most of them with lesser talent. The result is an offense that ranks 31st in the league. That goes to the heart of evaluating a head coach.

As I've said before, with the way the NFL is currently constructed, it's impossible to change everything in one year and expect to win. There are only two scenarios at this point. Either Pioli/Haley aren't interested in winning and are just trying to identify players on which to build, or they're idiots.

I think Pioli falls in the former and Haley is somewhere in the middle. Pioli made a GREAT trade to bring in Matt Cassel as his franchise QB. It wasn't a move I thought was necessary for THIS season, but he got great value and Cassel absolutely has potential if he'd learn how to get rid of the ball.

But Pioli brought in his "franchise QB" without either
A) properly evaluating the offensive line that was in place or
B) caring to protect his huge investment.
This is a clear failure, ESPECIALLY if Cassel ends up getting injured before the season is over.

Then, he drafts DEs in the first and third rounds without properly identifying Dorsey as a more than capable starter in the 3-4. Another failure. Then, to top off that little mistake... neither of his draft picks who SHOULD be outperforming Glenn Dorsey at DE, are producing. Jackson and Magee may become good starters for this defense at some point down the road, but they weren't essential for THIS TEAM, THIS YEAR. Period.

What IS essential, however is a capable offensive line that can protect Matt Cassel and the firing of McIntosh (horrible as he was) without first securing at least a comparable replacement is another massive failure.

It's not just the play calling. It's not just the product on the field. It's a series of questionable decisions that have been made up to this point. It seems like people just want to give them a pass on legitimately questionable decisions that have been made since January, just because he was with the Patriots or they are from the Parcells tree.

I would LOVE to have a Parcells type disciplinarian coach than a Tony Dungy/Herm Edwards nice guy, laid back type. But the way Haley is going about his coaching and the way he's evaluating isn't Pacells-esque. Haley sent the coaches off the field during practice friday, leaving the veterans on the team to finish the drills and other crap that had to be done. This was something he's seen Parcells do before when he thought the team was being sloppy and lazy. In reality, Parcells did this 3 times during his 23 year head coaching career. Haley has done it already once in 5 weeks.

There really is a fine line that you have to walk when you decide you're going to be a disciplinarian-type coach and Todd Haley isn't walking that line. His antics are going to wear thin REAL fast and he's going to lose the locker room. This happens in every sport. You see it a lot in baseball. Losing the clubhouse is usually doom for any coach.

You don't really see Haley yelling at the defensive players as much as the offensive players. I think a big reason for this is because this team has been working on the same defensive scheme since OTA's. The offense however, is a brand new scheme that Haley decided to implement one week before the season started. Does that REALLY seem like someone who's capable of making consistently good decisions?

I said this in December and I'm saying it again. Clark Hunt made a bad decision taking so long to hire his new GM. He should've had his guy in place the week after the season ended. It may have been a Pioli issue as well, but the fact that it took so long to get him in place REALLY hurt the player evaluation process. Then, taking so long to fire Edwards was another blow followed by the LOOOONG time it took to find the next head coach. They had a little over a month to evaluate current players before the draft. That hurt us in April. You're seeing that now with the 20 hits Cassel took and the combined 5 tkls TJ and Magee have combined for. One bad draft isn't a reason to fire a GM though. Neither is being the worst team in the league and having the most money to spend.... as long as he has a legitimate reason.

I'm more than willing to give Scott Pioli MORE than 5 years. GMs and head coaches shouldn't be judged by the same criteria. I have a feeling Scott Pioli has an idea of what needs to be done and he has a plan. The patient approach I have with Pioli also stems from the fact that he has a pretty good resume that supports him and warrants the decision to make him the GM of the Kansas City Chiefs. (Something Haley doesn't have)

It's obvious that his #1 priority was to change the defense over to the 3-4. The defense has shown dramatic improvement and while we're actually ranked last in the league in total defense, you have to remember that we've played the #1, #2, #5, and #8 offenses in 4 of the first 5 weeks. I doubt you're going to find too many people who have watched the games that think we've regressed defensively.

However, the transition that has been made could've been made with the players that were either already here or with the free agents we signed. We have ONE player who Pioli brought in who is playing at a level higher than the player he replaced, and that's Mike Vrabel. Neither Mays or Belcher are playing better than Derrick Johnson. Hali has made the transition as seemlessly as can be expected... as has Dorsey. Both he and Gilberry are playing at a higher level than Jackson and Magee. Mike Brown is a lateral move AT BEST from Bernard Pollard. The rest of the defense is the same.

The thing that just bothers me so much about this transition is the coaching staff. Why, if you're Scott Pioli, would you trust this (your first GM job and first rebuild) with someone who has hardly ANY experience as a talent evaluator, even less experience as an offensive coordinator and even less experience as a head coach? Then, if you DO decide he IS your guy, why the hell don't you surround him with the best coaches to give him the best chance to succeed? Wait, what am I saying... he'd just fire them anyway.

But mainly, why is Haley your guy? What has he done during his career that has instilled such a sense of trust that this guy is going to get it right? He made his name by publicly berating one of the best WRs in the league and it's been nothing but more of the same since he's been here.

Pioli/Haley shouldn't be Pioli/Haley. They should be separated for the different decisions each of them make individually. I will say however, from this point forward, that whoever the GM is in each May from this point forward, needs to be fired until the O-line is addressed. I don't care who you are or where you live or what your priority is at this point in your life, if you are going to be the GM for the Kansas City Chiefs, you have to know that the offensive line needs to be rebuilt. PERIOD. Either bring in pro bowl caliber players in free agency or keep spending draft picks on the O-line until you've addressed the problem. If you think the defense is the problem, it's because you haven't opened your eyes and realized the defense is probably giving up points because its on the field way too much.

Fix the O-line.

Thanks TC. That chapter explains my feelings towards this regime to perfection...

[matthewschiefs]

Even after you factor in the first 5 weeks of last season, the Chiefs were 23rd in total offense. After implementing the new offense, they were a top 12 offense last season. I don't care if you want to call it "gimmick," "fake," a "college system," or whatever, the bottom line is that Gailey was able to produce with the talent he had last season and credit goes to Herm Edwards for allowing Gailey to conjure up something that would allow this team to perform on a NFL level.

Since that time, Haley has fired Gailey, his RG, RT, and changed QBs while replacing most of them with lesser talent. The result is an offense that ranks 31st in the league. That goes to the heart of evaluating a head coach.

As I've said before, with the way the NFL is currently constructed, it's impossible to change everything in one year and expect to win. There are only two scenarios at this point. Either Pioli/Haley aren't interested in winning and are just trying to identify players on which to build, or they're idiots.

I think Pioli falls in the former and Haley is somewhere in the middle. Pioli made a GREAT trade to bring in Matt Cassel as his franchise QB. It wasn't a move I thought was necessary for THIS season, but he got great value and Cassel absolutely has potential if he'd learn how to get rid of the ball.

But Pioli brought in his "franchise QB" without either
A) properly evaluating the offensive line that was in place or
B) caring to protect his huge investment.
This is a clear failure, ESPECIALLY if Cassel ends up getting injured before the season is over.

Then, he drafts DEs in the first and third rounds without properly identifying Dorsey as a more than capable starter in the 3-4. Another failure. Then, to top off that little mistake... neither of his draft picks who SHOULD be outperforming Glenn Dorsey at DE, are producing. Jackson and Magee may become good starters for this defense at some point down the road, but they weren't essential for THIS TEAM, THIS YEAR. Period.

What IS essential, however is a capable offensive line that can protect Matt Cassel and the firing of McIntosh (horrible as he was) without first securing at least a comparable replacement is another massive failure.

It's not just the play calling. It's not just the product on the field. It's a series of questionable decisions that have been made up to this point. It seems like people just want to give them a pass on legitimately questionable decisions that have been made since January, just because he was with the Patriots or they are from the Parcells tree.

I would LOVE to have a Parcells type disciplinarian coach than a Tony Dungy/Herm Edwards nice guy, laid back type. But the way Haley is going about his coaching and the way he's evaluating isn't Pacells-esque. Haley sent the coaches off the field during practice friday, leaving the veterans on the team to finish the drills and other crap that had to be done. This was something he's seen Parcells do before when he thought the team was being sloppy and lazy. In reality, Parcells did this 3 times during his 23 year head coaching career. Haley has done it already once in 5 weeks.

There really is a fine line that you have to walk when you decide you're going to be a disciplinarian-type coach and Todd Haley isn't walking that line. His antics are going to wear thin REAL fast and he's going to lose the locker room. This happens in every sport. You see it a lot in baseball. Losing the clubhouse is usually doom for any coach.

You don't really see Haley yelling at the defensive players as much as the offensive players. I think a big reason for this is because this team has been working on the same defensive scheme since OTA's. The offense however, is a brand new scheme that Haley decided to implement one week before the season started. Does that REALLY seem like someone who's capable of making consistently good decisions?

I said this in December and I'm saying it again. Clark Hunt made a bad decision taking so long to hire his new GM. He should've had his guy in place the week after the season ended. It may have been a Pioli issue as well, but the fact that it took so long to get him in place REALLY hurt the player evaluation process. Then, taking so long to fire Edwards was another blow followed by the LOOOONG time it took to find the next head coach. They had a little over a month to evaluate current players before the draft. That hurt us in April. You're seeing that now with the 20 hits Cassel took and the combined 5 tkls TJ and Magee have combined for. One bad draft isn't a reason to fire a GM though. Neither is being the worst team in the league and having the most money to spend.... as long as he has a legitimate reason.

I'm more than willing to give Scott Pioli MORE than 5 years. GMs and head coaches shouldn't be judged by the same criteria. I have a feeling Scott Pioli has an idea of what needs to be done and he has a plan. The patient approach I have with Pioli also stems from the fact that he has a pretty good resume that supports him and warrants the decision to make him the GM of the Kansas City Chiefs. (Something Haley doesn't have)

It's obvious that his #1 priority was to change the defense over to the 3-4. The defense has shown dramatic improvement and while we're actually ranked last in the league in total defense, you have to remember that we've played the #1, #2, #5, and #8 offenses in 4 of the first 5 weeks. I doubt you're going to find too many people who have watched the games that think we've regressed defensively.

However, the transition that has been made could've been made with the players that were either already here or with the free agents we signed. We have ONE player who Pioli brought in who is playing at a level higher than the player he replaced, and that's Mike Vrabel. Neither Mays or Belcher are playing better than Derrick Johnson. Hali has made the transition as seemlessly as can be expected... as has Dorsey. Both he and Gilberry are playing at a higher level than Jackson and Magee. Mike Brown is a lateral move AT BEST from Bernard Pollard. The rest of the defense is the same.

The thing that just bothers me so much about this transition is the coaching staff. Why, if you're Scott Pioli, would you trust this (your first GM job and first rebuild) with someone who has hardly ANY experience as a talent evaluator, even less experience as an offensive coordinator and even less experience as a head coach? Then, if you DO decide he IS your guy, why the hell don't you surround him with the best coaches to give him the best chance to succeed? Wait, what am I saying... he'd just fire them anyway.

But mainly, why is Haley your guy? What has he done during his career that has instilled such a sense of trust that this guy is going to get it right? He made his name by publicly berating one of the best WRs in the league and it's been nothing but more of the same since he's been here.

Pioli/Haley shouldn't be Pioli/Haley. They should be separated for the different decisions each of them make individually. I will say however, from this point forward, that whoever the GM is in each May from this point forward, needs to be fired until the O-line is addressed. I don't care who you are or where you live or what your priority is at this point in your life, if you are going to be the GM for the Kansas City Chiefs, you have to know that the offensive line needs to be rebuilt. PERIOD. Either bring in pro bowl caliber players in free agency or keep spending draft picks on the O-line until you've addressed the problem. If you think the defense is the problem, it's because you haven't opened your eyes and realized the defense is probably giving up points because its on the field way too much.

Fix the O-line.

Great post, I agree with just about everything. My problem is that a rookie coach is going to make mistakes that happens all the time. Most rookie coaches take over a bad team but probley not this young of a team. When i look at things I see signs of hope for Hailey. First off the guy will admit when he makes a mistake. Yes hes hard on his players but he is also willing to say Hey i screwed up. Look at even when he was a little late to a press confrace he appolgized for it. After the Philly game He admited to mistakes and again today i watched his press confrance and he admited to mistakes. The bright spot is he sees them. He is a rookie coach hes going to make them, what makes the good coaches good is they see there mistakes learn from them and get to the point were they dont make many.

The O line is a major problem and I would agree that it should have been made more of a focus in the offseason. Now that is easier said then done. Again its not like they could just go to every team say give me so and so since we are a new staff. You can say they should have drafted o line but the draft is basicly a bunch of teams takeing a bunch of gambles. You never no when your going to get a ryan leaf in the first round or tom brady in the late rounds. So again thats easier said then done.

The fireing of Chan i would agree was a bad move. But sometimes as a coach you just have to make a move if you think it will help you in the long term. And i think that we should wait more then 5 games before we say that hailey is a bad playcaller. Look at the offense people got all upset when hailey was consertive. Then he tries a trick play it gets blown up due to the horrible o line and everyone is saying how horrible of the playcall that was. I belive that if they could ever fix the oline that the chiefs would be able to move the ball. But again IMO 5 games is not that much to go on. Hailey will make mistakes I no that but he still deserves time. Thats just hwhat I think.

[texaschief]

Great post, I agree with just about everything. My problem is that a rookie coach is going to make mistakes that happens all the time. Most rookie coaches take over a bad team but probley not this young of a team. When i look at things I see signs of hope for Hailey. First off the guy will admit when he makes a mistake. Yes hes hard on his players but he is also willing to say Hey i screwed up. Look at even when he was a little late to a press confrace he appolgized for it. After the Philly game He admited to mistakes and again today i watched his press confrance and he admited to mistakes. The bright spot is he sees them. He is a rookie coach hes going to make them, what makes the good coaches good is they see there mistakes learn from them and get to the point were they dont make many.

The O line is a major problem and I would agree that it should have been made more of a focus in the offseason. Now that is easier said then done. Again its not like they could just go to every team say give me so and so since we are a new staff. You can say they should have drafted o line but the draft is basicly a bunch of teams takeing a bunch of gambles. You never no when your going to get a ryan leaf in the first round or tom brady in the late rounds. So again thats easier said then done.

The fireing of Chan i would agree was a bad move. But sometimes as a coach you just have to make a move if you think it will help you in the long term. And i think that we should wait more then 5 games before we say that hailey is a bad playcaller. Look at the offense people got all upset when hailey was consertive. Then he tries a trick play it gets blown up due to the horrible o line and everyone is saying how horrible of the playcall that was. I belive that if they could ever fix the oline that the chiefs would be able to move the ball. But again IMO 5 games is not that much to go on. Hailey will make mistakes I no that but he still deserves time. Thats just hwhat I think.

I've already done this exercise when I was railing against the idea of drafting a QB with the third pick, but I can't find it right now. But, go back over the past decade and see how many offensive linemen turned into Ryan Leaf type busts. There weren't many who aren't still contributing to their original offensive lines, let alone out of the league altogether. The hit rate for offensive linemen is in the 90th percentile. Drafting O-linemen have the BEST chance of making immediate impacts than ANY other position on the field.