to the person comparing trent green vs cassel read this

**marloweopatchiefs** · 12-10-2009, 07:51 PM

Trent Green

Your right cassel won't be the next green he will be better then green. Like i said that post was the stupidest post i have ever seen in my life. Trent green threw more interceptions then he did td's in his first season with the chiefs and he had better weapons to work with then cassel does. Not trying to put anyone down but when people post comparing one person to another make sure your facts are straight.

**moonshiner** · 12-14-2009, 07:01 PM

there are 2 big differnces in Trent & Matt's situation . Vermiel had a working knowdedge of Trent , coached him and knew his capabilities as well as Trent already had time in that offense . Vermiel had coached a team to 2 SB's and won one & it could be argued HIS DV's Rams went to another after his leaving

Matt's situation altho fairly similar comparing the 2 is IMO a dreamers wishful thinking .. I hope Matt turns out to be as good as Trent but I dont think as of now the comparisons are viable except to say that their first season as a Chief has been miserable.

**marloweopatchiefs** · 12-14-2009, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by figcrostic

Read my post again Morton did not play until his second year and kennison only played 6 games. I still think Cassel wr core is better then what Trent had name one good WR trent had for the whole season of 2001 devard darling would look like a start on that roster

I don't care what u say and the number don't lie...cassel at least does not have more interceptions then he does tds...i don't need to read anything..look at the stats trent green and that team had a better record as well then this kc team..trent green had better receiving corps..anyone but you will agree with me.

**marloweopatchiefs** · 12-14-2009, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by marloweopatchiefs

I don't care what u say and the number don't lie...cassel at least does not have more interceptions then he does tds...i don't need to read anything..look at the stats trent green and that team had a better record as well then this kc team..trent green had better receiving corps..anyone but you will agree with me.

And are you forgetting he had GONZALEZ and eddie kennison there dude..what do u mean one good receiver?

**Connie Jo** · 12-14-2009, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by marloweopatchiefs

I am not insane he had the same wide receiving corps the next year. Aka as johnny morton and eddie kennison and there offense was awesome. No I am not insane and i still think cassel will be fine once he gets a descent group around him that can CATCH a ball.

Dante Hall was often used as a WR also during Trent's years with the Chiefs. In fact, it was often noted by analysts that the Chiefs had many offensive weapons (players) for Green to choose from.

**chief31** · 12-15-2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Connie Jo

Dante Hall was often used as a WR also during Trent's years with the Chiefs. In fact, it was often noted by analysts that the Chiefs had many offensive weapons (players) for Green to choose from.

Dante Hall was not used as a WR in 2001. Zero receptions.

Snoop Minnis had 33 catches, for 511 yards.

Sylvester Morris had zero receptions.

Johnnie Morton played for The Lions. (77 catches, 1154 yards)

Larry Parker had 15 catches for 199 yards.

Derrick Alexander had 27 ctaches for 470 yards.

Eddie Kennison played in five games for The Chiefs, and had 16 catches for 322 yards.

Tony Gonzalez had 73 catches for 917 yards.

Mikhael Ricks had 18 catches for 252 yards.

Chris Thomas had 19 catches for 247 yards.

Jason Dunn had 4 catches for 54 yards.

That means the active receiving corp (RBs not included) boiled down to this...

Tony Gonzalez 73 - 917 (16 games )
Eddie Kennison 16 - 322 (5 games)
Derrick Alexander 27 - 470 (13 games)
Larry Parker 15 - 199 (12 games)
Snoop Minnis 33 - 511 (13 games)
Mikhael Ricks 18 - 252 yards (16 games)
Chris Thomas 19 - 247 yards (10 games)
Jason Dunn 4 - 54 yards (15 games)

And to compare...

Lance Long 20 - 178 (7 games)
Sean Ryan 14 - 135 (10 games)
Bobby Engram 5 - 62 (5 games)
Brad Cottam 5 - 58 (7 games)
Leonard Pope 15 - 115 (10 games)
Mark Bradley 21 - 268 (12 games)
Bobby Wade 33 - 333 (10 games)
Chris Chambers 23 - 380 (6 games)
Dwayne Bowe 22 - 466 (8 games)
Quinten Lawrence 1 - 9 (4 games)
Terrance Copper 2 - 11 (12 games)

Totals...

2001 ... 205 - 2972
2009 ... 161 - 2015 Averaged to 16 games...
2009 ... 198 - 2480

The stats seem to suggest that the 2001 corp did better than this season's corp has done, so far.

But, as always, there are other factors that help to creat those statistics. Actual QB play, QB protection, and offensive scheme. And, of signifgant importance, RB receiving...

2001 ... 92 - 879
2009 ... 68 - 450 (Includes Larry Johnson's Chiefs stats) Averaged...
2009 ... 84 - 554

Now...

Make your own determination of which receiving crew was better. But I'll share my opinion, as well.

I'd say that Trent Green had several advantages, as having Tony Gonzalez, his best receiving RB (Holmes to Charles) for the whole season, an explosive offensive system, familiarity with the system, better protection and a coaching staff that was nurturing to a player who is learning.

But the situations are very similar in other ways.

Green had problems with his protection. Just not quite as bad as what we have now.

Green lacked WR talent. Probably more so than Cassel, right now.

Green held onto the ball too long, frequently. (Speculation, but widely agreed upon.)

We have seen what Green was able to do, once things improved around him. But we have also seen what Cassel was able to do in an improved set of circumstances. And both did some very good things.

What I think will be the eventual difference is Vermiel> Haley.

Vermiel has a history of creating very QB friendly offenses, and Haley has no history to really speak of.

So, yes. I do think Cassel CAN BE a great QB. But, due to the fact that I don't think he will be put in a great situation, I don't think he will be.

Now, all of those stats have to have a disclaimer added, as NFL.com did not include LJ's Chiefs stats on their team stats page. Kansas City Chiefs Stats

So one has to believe that there is the possibility of the 2001 stats page Kansas City Chiefs Stats also discluding someone.

But I also schecked several other sites for any missing information, and was unable to find anything other than the LJ omission.

**figcrostic** · 12-15-2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by chief31

Dante Hall was not used as a WR in 2001. Zero receptions.

Snoop Minnis had 33 catches, for 511 yards.

Sylvester Morris had zero receptions.

Johnnie Morton played for The Lions. (77 catches, 1154 yards)

Larry Parker had 15 catches for 199 yards.

Derrick Alexander had 27 ctaches for 470 yards.

Eddie Kennison played in five games for The Chiefs, and had 16 catches for 322 yards.

Tony Gonzalez had 73 catches for 917 yards.

Mikhael Ricks had 18 catches for 252 yards.

Chris Thomas had 19 catches for 247 yards.

Jason Dunn had 4 catches for 54 yards.

That means the active receiving corp (RBs not included) boiled down to this...

Tony Gonzalez 73 - 917 (16 games )
Eddie Kennison 16 - 322 (5 games)
Derrick Alexander 27 - 470 (13 games)
Larry Parker 15 - 199 (12 games)
Snoop Minnis 33 - 511 (13 games)
Mikhael Ricks 18 - 252 yards (16 games)
Chris Thomas 19 - 247 yards (10 games)
Jason Dunn 4 - 54 yards (15 games)

And to compare...

Lance Long 20 - 178 (7 games)
Sean Ryan 14 - 135 (10 games)
Bobby Engram 5 - 62 (5 games)
Brad Cottam 5 - 58 (7 games)
Leonard Pope 15 - 115 (10 games)
Mark Bradley 21 - 268 (12 games)
Bobby Wade 33 - 333 (10 games)
Chris Chambers 23 - 380 (6 games)
Dwayne Bowe 22 - 466 (8 games)
Quinten Lawrence 1 - 9 (4 games)
Terrance Copper 2 - 11 (12 games)

Totals...

2001 ... 205 - 2972
2009 ... 161 - 2015 Averaged to 16 games...
2009 ... 198 - 2480

The stats seem to suggest that the 2001 corp did better than this season's corp has done, so far.

But, as always, there are other factors that help to creat those statistics. Actual QB play, QB protection, and offensive scheme. And, of signifgant importance, RB receiving...

2001 ... 92 - 879
2009 ... 68 - 450 (Includes Larry Johnson's Chiefs stats) Averaged...
2009 ... 84 - 554

Now...

Make your own determination of which receiving crew was better. But I'll share my opinion, as well.

I'd say that Trent Green had several advantages, as having Tony Gonzalez, his best receiving RB (Holmes to Charles) for the whole season, an explosive offensive system, familiarity with the system, better protection and a coaching staff that was nurturing to a player who is learning.

But the situations are very similar in other ways.

Green had problems with his protection. Just not quite as bad as what we have now.

Green lacked WR talent. Probably more so than Cassel, right now.

Green held onto the ball too long, frequently. (Speculation, but widely agreed upon.)

We have seen what Green was able to do, once things improved around him. But we have also seen what Cassel was able to do in an improved set of circumstances. And both did some very good things.

What I think will be the eventual difference is Vermiel> Haley.

Vermiel has a history of creating very QB friendly offenses, and Haley has no history to really speak of.

So, yes. I do think Cassel CAN BE a great QB. But, due to the fact that I don't think he will be put in a great situation, I don't think he will be.

Now, all of those stats have to have a disclaimer added, as NFL.com did not include LJ's Chiefs stats on their team stats page. Kansas City Chiefs Stats

So one has to believe that there is the possibility of the 2001 stats page Kansas City Chiefs Stats also discluding someone.

But I also schecked several other sites for any missing information, and was unable to find anything other than the LJ omission.

Great stats! Like I said if you look at Green he did not have the weapons, that everyone is claiming he did and the line wasn't as good as it was with Roaf who did not get there until 2002. I still stand by that Cassel has better WR's then Cassel, other then TG who is great he had no-one until they picked up Kennison, Trent is a better QB, he threw a lot of interceptions his first year, but he wasn't a game manager like Cassel. Trent could bring a team back, when they were down a couple td's, right now I don't see that in Cassel. Who knows maybe he will be awesome next year, but right now I don't see it, I hope he turns out good because I don't think we will get rid of him any time soon, even though Haley thinks he's a "Dumb-A- QB".

**marloweopatchiefs** · 12-15-2009, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by figcrostic

Great stats! Like I said if you look at Green he did not have the weapons, that everyone is claiming he did and the line wasn't as good as it was with Roaf who did not get there until 2002. I still stand by that Cassel has better WR's then Cassel, other then TG who is great he had no-one until they picked up Kennison, Trent is a better QB, he threw a lot of interceptions his first year, but he wasn't a game manager like Cassel. Trent could bring a team back, when they were down a couple td's, right now I don't see that in Cassel. Who knows maybe he will be awesome next year, but right now I don't see it, I hope he turns out good because I don't think we will get rid of him any time soon, even though Haley thinks he's a "Dumb-A- QB".

Apparently you didn't read it. He said the 2001 receiving corps were better then this years suggesting that Trent Green had better receiving corps.

**Seek** · 12-15-2009, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by figcrostic

Great stats! Like I said if you look at Green he did not have the weapons, that everyone is claiming he did and the line wasn't as good as it was with Roaf who did not get there until 2002. I still stand by that Cassel has better WR's then Cassel, other then TG who is great he had no-one until they picked up Kennison, Trent is a better QB, he threw a lot of interceptions his first year, but he wasn't a game manager like Cassel. Trent could bring a team back, when they were down a couple td's, right now I don't see that in Cassel. Who knows maybe he will be awesome next year, but right now I don't see it, I hope he turns out good because I don't think we will get rid of him any time soon, even though Haley thinks he's a "Dumb-A- QB".

I strongly disagree. Tony G. alone is huge improvement over anything the Chiefs have this year.

In my opinion. Derrick Alexander washes out Dbowe. Hard to comprehend, but Bowe has really done nothing this year productive except kill drives by dropping passes and then complain of pass int.

Chris Chambers is the only wild card, which is washed by the addition of Eddie Kennison by one game.

I don't care what anyone thinks, but the only weak link on the offensive line for Trent Green was Marcus Spears at RT in which John Tait filled with the addtion of Roaf. Addd the fact that we had a pretty denent running game as the year went on and learned who Priest really was.

The biggest difference in comparing the two is the OC. Saunders was just learing to run an offense, as is Hailey. I liked what I saw from Hailey until he threw the WR screen, but the shifting and motion was Hailey looking for a match up. I think he is learning to work with what he has.

The only real difference between Trent and Matt is Trent was just coming off a Knee surgery and was constant scurtinized for throwing off his back foot. Many felt his injury was keeping him from stepping into a throw. His confidence in his injury was fixed with a year of healing.

I feel Matt may be the next David Carr or Joey Harrington... Promising QBs who were broken by lack of surrounding talent.

**figcrostic** · 12-15-2009, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by marloweopatchiefs

Apparently you didn't read it. He said the 2001 receiving corps were better then this years suggesting that Trent Green had better receiving corps.

Apparently you didn't read this "Green lacked WR talent. Probably more so than Cassel, right now."

**chief31** · 12-15-2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by figcrostic

Apparently you didn't read this "Green lacked WR talent. Probably more so than Cassel, right now."

Well, I really think that Trent Green had a much better environment that what Cassel has this season.

While Green did throw alot of Ints in '01, he also threw for nearly 4000 yards (3783), whereas Cassel is on pace to get fewer than 3000 yards (2758).

What that suggests to me, is that Green was encouraged to make his mistakes and learn from them. And Cassel is getting the Herm treatment of "just play it safe".

And while there are alot of ways to interpret those differences, the reason that I believe the way I do about them is beacsue of the coaching personalities.

Obviously, Dick Vermiel was a very friendly HC, and seemed to be eager to forgive a player for his mistakes. And Haley has shown no remorse toward a player's struggles.

And, seein' as how I know what kind of results Vermiel was able to get with his approach, I think that that is a far better atmosphere for a new QB to grow in.

Almost everything grows better when given the "freedom" to do things their own way, than they do under a heavy-handed dictatorship.