I would hate to feel this way....

[honda522]

From listening to the game from work, yeah I got ripped off, D Bowe had alot of drops. Every time I went by the radio, I heard Mitch saying Bowe dropping the ball.

I am getting sick of the drops, just as everyone else. Why don't we put our selves out of misery?

I propose we trade Bowe. He is obviously no value to this team, maybe other than the fact that he helps take the double team....

Either way, if we can get a third or forth round draft pick and pick up someone who actually wants to come out and play some football.

Imagine the field goals we could of had all this year. Imaigine the wins. Not saying he is the cause of all the problems, but it might be a start. I love D Bowe, but he doesn't look like he is playing with his heart.

Who knows though...maybe its just the coaching staff.

[chief31]

He also took over a 7-9 team his first year....not a 2-14 team.

I wasn't making that comparison. Just pointing out that he did more than just take 15 seasons to win a Super Bowl.

[Canada]

Or if you use any common sense at all. You have to bury your head in the sand to not notice that Haley has lost his clubhouse.

Really now. I seem to recall seeing Haley high fiving guys, patting them on the back and it seemed like a pretty happy sideline to me yesterday. Not at all like a guy who has lost his team. I guess I will just check around the boards to see where you give him the credit for encouraging his players. Or does that sort of behaviour not fit into your argument about why he should not be our head coach.

[chief31]

Or if you use any common sense at all. You have to bury your head in the sand to not notice that Haley has lost his clubhouse.

Really now. I seem to recall seeing Haley high fiving guys, patting them on the back and it seemed like a pretty happy sideline to me yesterday. Not at all like a guy who has lost his team. I guess I will just check around the boards to see where you give him the credit for encouraging his players. Or does that sort of behaviour not fit into your argument about why he should not be our head coach.

That sort of thing should be pretty commonplace, shouldn't it?

Yesterday was one great game. It gives me alot of hope moving forward.

But it was still one game, and he has had player issues throughout the season, not for just one game.

Hopefully, guys like DJ have finally done enough to get Haley to come down from his high horse and become a part of this team, along with them.


He has a long offseason to reevaluate himself, even if he hasn't. I just hope that he isn't sitting on the same values that you seem to be.

Because, if what you do makes a player on your team perform less, then you need to try something else.

[Connie Jo]

ummmm....Im pretty sure that I jumped up and cheered every time Bowe causght a ball. Didn't you? How about Vern? How about Chiefster? How about every other member on these boards? I am sure we all cheer pretty damn hard when Bowe catches the ball. No one comes to my work and pats me on the back and holds my hand all day when I do my job right. But I will damn sure hear about it if I fu*k up. If Bowe feels underappreciated then maybe he should go to the payroll department and look at his pay stub and he will see how many KC fans support him. You can't use one game (the Browns game) as a measuring stick for how the fans treat the guy. I have heard a lot of cheers for Bowe so I think that he gets his share of encouragement as well as his fair share of sh!t. I am not speaking about Haley as I only really see what goes on for three hours on the field as opposed to what their relationship is all week.

Heck...I'm just now reading through the threads and catching up after the holidays...sorry for the delayed reply, haha.

Of course you and I and Chiefs Crowd members cheered loudly when Bowe made a catch, as well as when any other Chief does a good job...cause we're the best of the best loyal diehard fans out there!

That said, what I noticed at the Browns game was when Bowe was booed by fans in the stadium overall, it was much louder than what the cheering was. I just personally found that to be a bit of double standards among those fans who booed louder than they cheered. I felt bad for Bowe that day, that's all.

I'm not a booer anyway, and have issues with it related to some circumstances...such as when a team is beaten down and their moral is obviously low...booing IMO only contributes to making a bad situation worse.

I suppose I'm a bit sensitive of this subject in particular, because throughout life I've witnessed in a variety of personalities the damage that can be done to one's self esteem with repeated criticism, and/or public humiliation of a job/task seen as poorly done vs unequal praise of a job/task when well done.

It seems the greatest coaches are the ones who found/find an equal balance between criticism and praise...as both are critical in the NFL for a successful team IMO.

Anyway...I like Haley so far, and believe he has the capability to be a great Head Coach. I like Bowe too, and believe he has the talent to be a great WR...only time will tell if I'm correct or wrong, hahaha.

What I don't like...is attending games at Arrowhead and witnessing fans put forth more negative effort than positive when given the opportunity, including as the '12th man' helping our defense. I suppose my expectations of fans are too high...but, as I said...I'm among the best of the best at Chiefs Crowd, and if we can do it...so can they, otherwise...why bother calling themselves a Chiefs fan at all?

As fans we are limited with how we can help our team win...two of those ways is cheering a job well done, and helping our defense with crowd noise.

[Connie Jo]

The shoe fits.... I am 100% sure Todd Haley did NOT just decided to wake up hating D. Bowe one morning and decided to hold a grudge agaist D. Bowe. The guy had problems in the off season that got him demoted in an attempt to motivate D. Bowe to work harder at becoming the elite player we all think he could be.

You are all point the blame at the wrong person. Haley and TONY Gonzalez have tried to teach a strong work ethic to D. Bowe, yet D. Bowe continues to think he is a talent that needs no improvement.

As for Haley Yelling at people. Have you watched him since about the Pittsburgh Game.... He isn't yelling at the players like he was. In fact, I saw him yelling at Bobby Wade after making a catch Against Cincy and thought What is this about and then both smiled and gave each other a big High Five. He is an emotional coach, and while I thought he was chewing out Wade, he was praising him, even after their argument a couple weeks ago they are mending their differences.

Keep blaming Todd Haley, that is fine, but as far as I am concerned 100% of the problem is the immaturity and ego of one over paid Wr.

Sorry for the delay in reply, I'm a bit behind, haha.

No, you have it wrong...I am not blaming Haley, and did not blame Haley for being pissed at Bowe, he has a right to be, as Bowe has dropped too many passes, etc.. Heck, I was upset with Bowe too.

My post was in general related to fairness and balance related to criticism and praise, and it being critical for success of a team, player, and coach.

I have been in favor of Haley since day one, defended as such, and continue to have faith in him at this early stage of his first year as a head coach. Considering what he had to work with as the new HC of a losing Chiefs team...I think he's done okay so far, and has indeed made improvements. I'm looking forward to his being our HC in 2010, and believe we will see far more improvement as a result of Coach Haley.

That said...I also believe as I told Canada...that the greatest HC's in the NFL appear to be those who find an equal balance with criticism and praise.

Yes, I have noticed that Haley seems to be settling down some within himself as the season has come to an end. Possibly the pressures in the beginning of the season with all that was expected of him have also settled down within him, and as a result we will see more of that balance from him necessary for team success related to balanced criticism and praise.

I'm glad Haley is a 'get in your face' if you screw up big time coach...as I believe the Chiefs need that reality check, but I also believe they need a coach with some compassion, and capable of an equal level of praise when a player performs well. The latter appears to be of more benefit than not with contributing to a successful NFL team.

Haley has details of players and game play that I don't...so to judge him on such I have not done, and will not do. I only judge what I've personally witnessed or have knowledge to...such as the public display of criticism vs praise.

GO CHIEFS 2010!

[Canada]

That sort of thing should be pretty commonplace, shouldn't it?

Its week 17 isn't it? All the players on his 4-12 team are still [playing their as off for him are't they?

Yesterday was one great game. It gives me alot of hope moving forward.

But it was still one game, and he has had player issues throughout the season, not for just one game.

Yeah, they all seemed to have quit on him. His arch enemy DJ sure showed him. (almost like he wanted to prove to the coach that he deserved to play) I hate when coaches do that to players.

Hopefully, guys like DJ have finally done enough to get Haley to come down from his high horse and become a part of this team, along with them.

From where I am sitting, you are the guy on the high horse. You are like one of those people who hates management because they are management. You have not even begun to give Haley a remote chance (almost like you claim he does not do for players)

He has a long offseason to reevaluate himself, even if he hasn't. I just hope that he isn't sitting on the same values that you seem to be.

Yeah, be accountable for your mistakes. Our values are all messed up.

Because, if what you do makes a player on your team perform less, then you need to try something else.

Did we win on Sunday 44-24?
Did Cassel throw any picks?
Did DJ return two picks for TDs?
Did Charles run for 259 yards?

Yeah, they are performing less. They really stuck it to Haley. I saw him try and slap a player in the face on the sideline but the player threw his hand up and it lookedlike a high five. What an awful coach and human being Todd Haley is!!

[chief31]

Did we win on Sunday 44-24?
Did Cassel throw any picks?
Did DJ return two picks for TDs?
Did Charles run for 259 yards?

Yeah, they are performing less. They really stuck it to Haley. I saw him try and slap a player in the face on the sideline but the player threw his hand up and it lookedlike a high five. What an awful coach and human being Todd Haley is!!

Lol. It was one game. Shall I grab the twelve losses to shove back at you?

Feel free to keep living on one game, and ignoring the overall team. But I refuse to ignore all of the problems that he has had with these players.

But, not to worry. He will likely just get rid of whatever other players he doesn't like.

Its week 17 isn't it? All the players on his 4-12 team are still [playing their as off for him are't they?

Were they "playing their asses off" when The Browns humiliated them with the running game?

Again... It was ONE really good game.

Yeah, they all seemed to have quit on him. His arch enemy DJ sure showed him. (almost like he wanted to prove to the coach that he deserved to play) I hate when coaches do that to players.

Yeah. Becasue that guy certainly never should have been on the field. Lmao.

He had the best defensive perfomance in the league yesterday. Narrowly edging out, one, Bernard Pollard.

But, as you can speculate that he did it to earn Haley's respect, I can speculate that he did it in spite of the fact that he has been treated poorly.

Was he supposed to be rushing the passer on one of those big plays? Did he openly defy his coaches?

From where I am sitting, you are the guy on the high horse. You are like one of those people who hates management because they are management. You have not even begun to give Haley a remote chance (almost like you claim he does not do for players)

Right on. Easy assumption to make, considering how hateful I am toward all management. I have really ridden that Bill Cowher guy to no ends. And I have never been quiet in my hatred of Dick Vermiel either. Then there's Marty Shottenheimer. Man have I ever thrashed that guy! WOW!

Yeah, be accountable for your mistakes. Our values are all messed up.

Oh, you seem to have confused the word "accountable" for the word "humiliated".


Not sure why. The two words aren't really that similar.

Hopefully though, we can just lay that "Management hater" section to rest and keep it on topic from here on.

[Canada]

Lol. It was one game. Shall I grab the twelve losses to shove back at you?

Feel free to keep living on one game, and ignoring the overall team. But I refuse to ignore all of the problems that he has had with these players.

Living on one game? Are you serious? The game was 2 days ago. My point was they we're playing their as off in that game. They played their s off in the twelve losses you would like to shove back. IT DOES NOT SEEM LIKE HE HAS LOST HIS TEAM AT ALL. Now do you get it?

But, not to worry. He will likely just get rid of whatever other players he doesn't like.

Do you honestly believe that he is gonna jeopardize his career because he does not get along with someone? Seriously? He is getting rid of players who don't want to be here and players who do not buy into the system. Find me a head Coach in the NFL who would not do that.

Were they "playing their asses off" when The Browns humiliated them with the running game?

Looked like they were when they scored 34 points.

Again... It was ONE really good game.




Yeah. Becasue that guy certainly never should have been on the field. Lmao.

He had the best defensive perfomance in the league yesterday. Narrowly edging out, one, Bernard Pollard.

Same Bernard Pollard who missed a "big hit" and gave up a TD or the one who gave up the big 15 yard penalty on a late hit. I believe the announcers exact words were "guess who....again"

But, as you can speculate that he did it to earn Haley's respect, I can speculate that he did it in spite of the fact that he has been treated poorly.

And I know you will because you can not give Haley any credit for anything he does right.

Was he supposed to be rushing the passer on one of those big plays? Did he openly defy his coaches?

I guess you just have no real response for that. He accidentally picked those two balls off and returned them for TDs. Or is it that he picked them off just to make Haley mad. The did have quite the fight after those TDs didn't they.

Right on. Easy assumption to make, considering how hateful I am toward all management. I have really ridden that Bill Cowher guy to no ends. And I have never been quiet in my hatred of Dick Vermiel either. Then there's Marty Shottenheimer. Man have I ever thrashed that guy! WOW!

Nope, I just go by the ones i have seen since I have been a member here and I do not recall a single coach, co ordinator or GM that you have liked.

Oh, you seem to have confused the word "accountable" for the word "humiliated".

You hit the nail on the head. He yells. You dont know what he says and you don't know how often, but he yells. Therefore he must be a terrible coach. IF you watch other games around the league....coaches sometimes yell. I've seen it with my own eyes. I was even at a game once and I heard a coach yell so I know its true.
Not sure why. The two words aren't really that similar.

Hopefully though, we can just lay that "Management hater" section to rest and keep it on topic from here on.

You obviously have a knack for turning every decision that Haley makes seem like a huge mistake that he made. You even blam him for LJ and Tony G leaving. Two guys who have wanted out before Haley even thought about coming to KC. You are so biased against him because he yelled at some guys that you can't give him a chance at all or recognize when something is going well. I'm not saying the guy is perfect, but I am willing to give him a chance. He has done some good things. And if u think he has lost this team then why are they still playing their as$es off for him in Week 17?

[chief31]

Living on one game? Are you serious? The game was 2 days ago. My point was they we're playing their as off in that game. They played their s off in the twelve losses you would like to shove back. IT DOES NOT SEEM LIKE HE HAS LOST HIS TEAM AT ALL. Now do you get it?

No. Because they looked to have given up in most every game this season.

Do you honestly believe that he is gonna jeopardize his career because he does not get along with someone? Seriously? He is getting rid of players who don't want to be here and players who do not buy into the system. Find me a head Coach in the NFL who would not do that.

Sell them on the system. That is his job. Don't fire them before you ever get to play a game.

And do I honestly think that someone would make a mistake that jepordizes their career? Yeah. I see it all the time. Mistakes happen.

But you are no less speculating that the players "didn't want to be here" or were "not buying into the system", than one who says he didn't get along with them.

The difference is that he has had that problem with so many players, that even if they weren't buying into the system, he was failing at getting them to do so.

If were just one or two guys, then that's one thing. But he has issues with several players, that have either spoken up about it, or exposed the issues on the sidelines.

Looked like they were when they scored 34 points.

So they looked to be giving it their all (key word)when they allowed 351 rushing yards?

Same Bernard Pollard who missed a "big hit" and gave up a TD or the one who gave up the big 15 yard penalty on a late hit. I believe the announcers exact words were "guess who....again"

Yeah that worthless guy who had the game winning Int, and a fumble recoveruy for a TD as his team needed a win to try and secure a playoff spot. Yup. That guy.

And I know you will because you can not give Haley any credit for anything he does right.

How about I use some Canada-technique? Awwwww. Poor wittle guy, Haley.

Like it or not, he has made alot of mistakes this season.

And it is difficult to give him too much credit for Charles opening up the offense, when he was trying like hell to keep LJ in front of him.

Seems like he may have had a savior forced upon him.

When you are 4-12 and have so many bad issues occuring, there is alot more negative to observe than positive.

Nope, I just go by the ones i have seen since I have been a member here and I do not recall a single coach, co ordinator or GM that you have liked.

I know you like to do some partying. But this has to be a flat-out lie.

You really have no recollection of me ever saying anything positive about Cowher, Vermiel, nor anyone else?

I don't believe you.

You hit the nail on the head. He yells. You dont know what he says and you don't know how often, but he yells. Therefore he must be a terrible coach. IF you watch other games around the league....coaches sometimes yell. I've seen it with my own eyes. I was even at a game once and I heard a coach yell so I know its true.

Do you really think that the players are getting in his face because he yelled something that wasn't demeaning, or humiliating?

He has made enemies of a number of his teammates. Just accept it. They have told us about it in some cases.

You obviously have a knack for turning every decision that Haley makes seem like a huge mistake that he made. You even blam him for LJ and Tony G leaving. Two guys who have wanted out before Haley even thought about coming to KC.

A.) I never tried to blame Haley for TG leaving. Just mentioned that alot of players have left since he got here, and included him because he did.

B.) While few have wanted to be rid of LJ for longer than I, he is still a player that spoke up against Haley. If he were alone in that, then it wouldn't make a difference in the world to me. But he wasn't. He is just one of several examples.

You are so biased against him because he yelled at some guys that you can't give him a chance at all or recognize when something is going well. I'm not saying the guy is perfect, but I am willing to give him a chance. He has done some good things. And if u think he has lost this team then why are they still playing their as off for him in Week 17?

I am not biased against Haley. You are just wrong there.

And he may well have already been working on his issues with players. If he has, then good. If he hasn't then he still needs to.

You're not saying the guy is perfect, you are just reaching for every excuse imaginable for the mistakes he has made, as if they didn't exist.

Now...

You say that I I am just biased and not giving him any chance, etc., etc.

But I have always maintained that I have not given up on him. In this thread, and several others.

And that I am too harsh in my criticism of Haley, or that I "Have a knack for turning every decision that Haley makes seem like a huge mistake that he made."

But there are so many things that I don't get on him about. I have not taken up issue with his play-calling, since he stopped catering to LJs play-calling.

I don't complain about FB passes, or anything like that.

And if I could get a break from being painted this way, I'd like to say that he does seem to be getting things going alot better in regards to alot of the issues I have had with him, as the season came to a close.

Ad, as always, I hope he has learned from his mistakes in his first season, and will improve as we move forward.

I have had the few major issues that I think he needs to fix. And I don't go reaching on other subjects.

I openly play both sides with the whole issue, because there are two sides of it.

However, it seems to me, and maybe I have missed some things, that you completely coddle Haley and refuse to make a single note of anything negative ragarding him. In fact, you argue against every last thing that I have noted here. Seeming to not acknowledge a single error.

Where is the bias?

[Canada]

However, it seems to me, and maybe I have missed some things, that you completely coddle Haley and refuse to make a single note of anything negative ragarding him. In fact, you argue against every last thing that I have noted here. Seeming to not acknowledge a single error.

Where is the bias?

Why is it coddling to agree with what he is trying to do? I have acknowledged several times that he has made mistakes. Every coach does. I have argued every thing you said because those things are the topic of dicusion. IF I had agreed with everythingyou posted then we would not be having this conversation. I choose to have a little faith in our head coach and give him a fair shot before crucifying the guy. Some guys had a problem with him....did it ever occur to you that the problem might be those guys and not the coach? We are not discussing a single error. If u told me that you think it was a stupid move to go for a bootleg on 4th and goal on the 1 in the fubbalo game...then I would agree with you. But you are b pretty much saying that Haley is not a good coach and that is where I disagree with you. Pointing out his flaws would be pretty pointless of me since that is what you have been doing. So just because I did not post any of his "errors" does not mean I have never acknowledged them. I just have not been doing it in this thread.