Positional value

[bigpoppachief]

Honestly I am kind of tired about hearing about postional value. I just want someone that can come in and play. I feel that we do not need Okung because Albert CAN plat LT maybe he is not the best LT but at least give him another year now that we got some other help on the o line. Everyone says they dont want to spend that much on a safety and I am not all for Eric Berry because I really like Myron Rolle and think we can get him as a value pick in later rounds but I just am kinda tired about hearing how something is positional value I don't care if we took a safety with the number one overall pick as long as that player came in and made the team better. Hell if there was a kicker who could make 70 yard FG against the wind blowing 50 miles in thier face I would take them at number one. I just want someone that can help us win !

[Seek]

Your theory is predicated on the assumption that drafting a DB at #5 precludes you from improving your front 7.

There are other picks, picks where we can improve both our defensive line and linebackers.

Terrence Cody, Cam Thomas, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Spikes. That's four guys off the top of my head who should be around in round 2 or 3 and could be a major upgrade over our current roster.

Your Theory is assuming that these players who could fill a hole later in the draft, will become instant impact players who for some reason were magiclly skipped over and should have been drafted higher than they should. While that sounds nice, historically this is a sure fail tactic for the Chiefs. We have only draft two players worth keeping in the second round that I can recall (Tim Grunhardt and Brandon Flowers).

This theory is also under the assumption we have 4 second round picks to fill a need at OT, DT, IL and OLB.

You can not find me a top tier saftey in this league that does not have a good front Seven. Teams are built from the Line back not from the Back forward. Troy P, does make the Pittsburgh defense a whole lot better and could be an exception to that theory, but he wasn't even drafted in the top 10.

That is where the trade value originates The good players are closer to the line, and are the higher valued players because they are hard to find.

That is more fact than theory.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

Your Theory is assuming that these players who could fill a hole later in the draft, will become instant impact players who for some reason were magiclly skipped over and should have been drafted higher than they should. While that sounds nice, historically this is a sure fail tactic for the Chiefs. We have only draft two players worth keeping in the second round that I can recall (Tim Grunhardt and Brandon Flowers).

This theory is also under the assumption we have 4 second round picks to fill a need at OT, DT, IL and OLB.

You can not find me a top tier saftey in this league that does not have a good front Seven. Teams are built from the Line back not from the Back forward. Troy P, does make the Pittsburgh defense a whole lot better and could be an exception to that theory, but he wasn't even drafted in the top 10.

That is where the trade value originates The good players are closer to the line, and are the higher valued players because they are hard to find.

That is more fact than theory.

The draft doesn't end at round 2. Third round picks can still be major contributors. In fact, you listed four positions, yet we only have three picks in the first two rounds, so we can't take all of those anyway.

Of course, according to you, any player taken after the 2nd is just dead weight, right? no way you can build your lines with those picks.

How about players drafted in the third round? Like Will Shields? I believe he falls under the "close to the line" category.

How about the fourth round? Like Jared Allen? Does defensive end count towards the front seven?

how about these other 2009 probowlers, all linemen or linebackers:

lance briggs - third round
james harrison - undrafted
chris snee - 2nd round
andre gurode - 2nd round
kris jenkins - 2nd round
jay ratliff - 7th round
brian waters - undrafted
michael roos - 2nd round

"teams are built from the line back"

the last two years, we've picked two defensive linemen in the top 5, and an offensive tackle in the top 15.

two years prior, we spent our first rounder on a defensive end, who now plays linebacker.

Another top 15 pick was spent on Derrick johnson.

Starting to get it? We have SPENT draft picks on the trenches, on the front seven.

The top positional value is quarterback, but that would be a stupid pick. You can't limit your vision based on position (obviously not punter or kicker).

[chief31]

The draft doesn't end at round 2. Third round picks can still be major contributors. In fact, you listed four positions, yet we only have three picks in the first two rounds, so we can't take all of those anyway.

Of course, according to you, any player taken after the 2nd is just dead weight, right? no way you can build your lines with those picks.

How about players drafted in the third round? Like Will Shields? I believe he falls under the "close to the line" category.

How about the fourth round? Like Jared Allen? Does defensive end count towards the front seven?

how about these other 2009 probowlers, all linemen or linebackers:

lance briggs - third round
james harrison - undrafted
chris snee - 2nd round
andre gurode - 2nd round
kris jenkins - 2nd round
jay ratliff - 7th round
brian waters - undrafted
michael roos - 2nd round

"teams are built from the line back"

the last two years, we've picked two defensive linemen in the top 5, and an offensive tackle in the top 15.

two years prior, we spent our first rounder on a defensive end, who now plays linebacker.

Another top 15 pick was spent on Derrick johnson.

Starting to get it? We have SPENT draft picks on the trenches, on the front seven.

The top positional value is quarterback, but that would be a stupid pick. You can't limit your vision based on position (obviously not punter or kicker).

Showing the exceptions to the rule only proves the rule.

You aren't trying to say that players picked in later rounds are more successful than those drafted at the front. I know. But you do seem to be belittling the concept.

NFL teams place a different value to certain positions. Kicker and Punter are the obviuos ones. But OG, C, and S are devalued to different degrees. And most teams have lower values for certain other positions as well.

Positions such as Pass Rusher (OLB/DE), OT, DT and QB are among the league's highest valued positions.

Unless you are willing to make a case for a Punter being drafted #1 overall, then you agree with the ideal of having positional values. Perhaps to a lesser extent, but still on board with the program.

As for which positions have had players drafted high in recent years...

You can't use that as an excuse for devaluing your team's greatest needs.

That concept wil only hurt your team.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

My point was that you can find excellent contributors at the highest valued positions in rounds 2 and beyond. The first round doesn't have exclusive rights to pro-bowl linemen and linebackers.

Also, Berry isn't just a talented safety. he's an excellent character guy, a leader on the field, a leader off the field, a position of need, and a position that the team has very little money invested in. You have to spread the attention around. while berry might not be our pick, to completely write him off as undraftable at #5 is just silly. You would rather have a lesser player at another position, simply because of the position?

Between Ed Reed and Kyle Orton, I'll take Ed reed.

Between Matt Birk and Tank Williams, Birk.

[chief31]

My point was that you can find excellent contributors at the highest valued positions in rounds 2 and beyond. The first round doesn't have exclusive rights to pro-bowl linemen and linebackers.

Also, Berry isn't just a talented safety. he's an excellent character guy, a leader on the field, a leader off the field, a position of need, and a position that the team has very little money invested in. You have to spread the attention around. while berry might not be our pick, to completely write him off as undraftable at #5 is just silly. You would rather have a lesser player at another position, simply because of the position?

Between Ed Reed and Kyle Orton, I'll take Ed reed.

Between Matt Birk and Tank Williams, Birk.

I certainly don't want to "write off" Berry.
I am not heavily against drafting him.

But, between Ed Reed and Jake Long, I'll take Jake Long.

[Seek]

The draft doesn't end at round 2. Third round picks can still be major contributors. In fact, you listed four positions, yet we only have three picks in the first two rounds, so we can't take all of those anyway.

Of course, according to you, any player taken after the 2nd is just dead weight, right? no way you can build your lines with those picks.

How about players drafted in the third round? Like Will Shields? I believe he falls under the "close to the line" category.

How about the fourth round? Like Jared Allen? Does defensive end count towards the front seven?

how about these other 2009 probowlers, all linemen or linebackers:

lance briggs - third round
james harrison - undrafted
chris snee - 2nd round
andre gurode - 2nd round
kris jenkins - 2nd round
jay ratliff - 7th round
brian waters - undrafted
michael roos - 2nd round

"teams are built from the line back"

the last two years, we've picked two defensive linemen in the top 5, and an offensive tackle in the top 15.

two years prior, we spent our first rounder on a defensive end, who now plays linebacker.

Another top 15 pick was spent on Derrick johnson.

Starting to get it? We have SPENT draft picks on the trenches, on the front seven.

The top positional value is quarterback, but that would be a stupid pick. You can't limit your vision based on position (obviously not punter or kicker).

I get it, you are still missing the point. You are simply proving that there is talent that can succeed at other draft picks. I know that.

The point being made is that Chiefs have a lot of big holes, as I stated at least four. We don't have enough high draft picks to fill those holes. So we will have to rely on later rounds to fill those holes. Based on your theory, the Cheifs would have to hit on all their draft picks, and then drafting the safety a stud safety at #5 is the right pick. I am skeptical we nail all those draft picks. It is less likely that we find these four starters in the 3rd or fourth rounds.

That is where the positional value comes in... A serviceable safety Like Jared Page, can more easily be found in the 7th round, that a starting LT. It does happen every once in a while, but not often.

You can throw out there all the picks the Chiefs drafted before, and that is a moot argument. It was a different GM, HC an different structure. Those drafts are obviously why were are in the current state we are in.

Teams that draft safeties in the top 10 picks, historically continue have losing records. because they were bad enough to be in the top 10 and had other issues to fix but chose to take the safety first without fixing the trenches.

There is two many holes on this team that needs fixing. Safety is one of them, but it will be fixed in a later round as you proved, there is talent later in the draft.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

I get it, you are still missing the point. You are simply proving that there is talent that can succeed at other draft picks. I know that.

The point being made is that Chiefs have a lot of big holes, as I stated at least four. We don't have enough high draft picks to fill those holes. So we will have to rely on later rounds to fill those holes. Based on your theory, the Cheifs would have to hit on all their draft picks, and then drafting the safety a stud safety at #5 is the right pick. I am skeptical we nail all those draft picks. It is less likely that we find these four starters in the 3rd or fourth rounds.

That is where the positional value comes in... A serviceable safety Like Jared Page, can more easily be found in the 7th round, that a starting LT. It does happen every once in a while, but not often.

You can throw out there all the picks the Chiefs drafted before, and that is a moot argument. It was a different GM, HC an different structure. Those drafts are obviously why were are in the current state we are in.

Teams that draft safeties in the top 10 picks, historically continue have losing records. because they were bad enough to be in the top 10 and had other issues to fix but chose to take the safety first without fixing the trenches.

There is two many holes on this team that needs fixing. Safety is one of them, but it will be fixed in a later round as you proved, there is talent later in the draft.

You're right about finding a servicable safety later. It's easier than finding a left tackle. However, I would argue that our current left tackle is every bit as good as any we would draft. Therefore, we're really drafting a RIGHT tackle. You can find a right tackle in later rounds.

Look, if an elite tackle were available, no way I take Berry over him. But I just don't think that the prospects on the offensive line are elite, unless you are looking at Iupati or Pouncey, and I think we both feel #5 is too high for a guard or center.

if Okung fell to us, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

I don't necessarily WANT berry, I just think it may be the best choice.

We're going to reach at #5, either for a guy whose position dictates a reach (berry) or whose character does (williams, davis) or whose talent does (bulaga). No matter what, we won't get good draft value out of the pick.

(by draft value, I mean their value as potential players. obviously, any one of them could be a hall of famer, and then retroactively they would have excellent value regardless of where they were selected).

[Seek]

You're right about finding a servicable safety later. It's easier than finding a left tackle. However, I would argue that our current left tackle is every bit as good as any we would draft. Therefore, we're really drafting a RIGHT tackle. You can find a right tackle in later rounds.

Look, if an elite tackle were available, no way I take Berry over him. But I just don't think that the prospects on the offensive line are elite, unless you are looking at Iupati or Pouncey, and I think we both feel #5 is too high for a guard or center.

if Okung fell to us, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

I don't necessarily WANT berry, I just think it may be the best choice.

We're going to reach at #5, either for a guy whose position dictates a reach (berry) or whose character does (williams, davis) or whose talent does (bulaga). No matter what, we won't get good draft value out of the pick.

(by draft value, I mean their value as potential players. obviously, any one of them could be a hall of famer, and then retroactively they would have excellent value regardless of where they were selected).

I don't think we are okay at LT. There is hundreds of excuses to why, but he was the most penalized LT in the NFL last year and gave up 9 sacks.

That means he is getting beat, frequently. While I have not given up on him, I have as a LT. Move him to RT and if that fails try him at Guard. The Chiefs under Herman Edwards reached on getting a LT cheap in the draft.

Right now people say Trent Williams and Okung are a coing flip. Bulaga is supposedly a decent option at LT, but his biggest down grade is the length of his arms and experience. One of those three will be there. We COULD solidify our LT and RT by drafting a new LT and moving Albert to Rt. For the record, I would prefer not reaching on Bulaga.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

I am totally with you on Albert. I don't think we are "set" at left tackle. The only reason I am not 100% in favor of drafting a new left tackle is that I am underwhelmed by the prospects in this draft.

Outside of Okung, the 1st round talent at tackle is either hampered by a low ceiling (Brown, Bulaga) or character concerns (Williams, Davis).

I mean, is there a single person who wouldn't prefer to trade down?

[Fansincebirth]

LOL your both wrong. Wow

Just going to keep it simple. S is the biggest need on team. Take Berry. If you get the chance to trade down. Trade down. Take Earl Thomas.

Everyone wants to blame the pass rush. Watch a game and see how often the ball is thrown in less than 2 seconds. Doesnt matter how good your rush is if the QB has someone open and throws the ball in less than 2 seconds. A safety like Berry lets you play alot more man coverage which alows LB to give better run support, put pressure on QB, and gives the DLine that extra second to sack the QB. Thats is what Polumau and Bob Sanders bring to their defences and make them look so good. btw Polumlu was drafted 16th over all so would it be ok with you if we traded down with SF and took Thomas at 13th or would that be too early.