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Thread: Lets talk about the O-line

  1. #1
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    Default Lets talk about the O-line


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    Yes, I know the Chiefs offense was the top ranked rushing team, and yes Cassel has hardly been sacked. However, I find it very odd that the Chiefs can rarely get short yardage when it is needed. So much that the Chiefs have started to throw more on 3 and 2 than they do on 3rd and 6.

    I have seen Brian Waters get his butt kicked two weeks in a row. I mean horribly kicked. Our Right Tackels no longer can block anyone, and Brandon Albert is getting beat often.

    The offensive line is to inconsitent and I tend to think that the only reason they have not been completely exposed is due to the running style of Charles and the play calling by Weis.

    While I see people arleady claiming to draft a WR, and OLB , safety or a new corner. This o-line is not sound, and is old in two positions. We had better be looking at up upgrades next year.

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    Found another intersting tidbit, the Chiefs lead the league with 19 10+ yard runs when running to the left side. Now I realize this has a lot to do with Jamaal Charles, but if you look to the right side of the line there have only been 11 10+ yard runs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matthewschiefs View Post
    First off you THINK Okung would have fit in fine. We DON'T And WILL NEVER really no

    Your saying Berry was a bad pick after 9 games? Not even one year to get adjusted to the NFL. In his 1st year Peyton Manning threw 28 picks to 26 tds. Under your judgment he was a bad pick for the colts. Go tell that to a colts fan. Hell in his first couple of games Ryan leaf looked like an impact QB so that means that was a good pick for the Chargers right? It's far to early to tell weather or not Berry was a good pick. It takes TIME for players to devolpe. It's rare that a ROOKIE comes in and makes an impact right away.

    I was before the draft right with you saying that we should have picked on the lines. I didn't think that a safety would help this team much. I think Berry has made an impact. We are not seeing our defensive backfield miss tackles they should make a much as we did a season ago. Berry has been blamed for a lot but he was not the only one on those plays that failed. Berry has been fine given time he can be great. But you HAVE TO give him time to devolpe into an NFL player.
    I don't think it, I know Okung would have fit in. Why? Because he's a football player & a damn good one at his position -- and that's all it takes. Besides, OT's drafted in the top 15 have the lowest bust rate of any position. Please explain how he would not have fit in. You can't. Plain and simple. He would have fit in just like any other O-Line they've brought in, be it Albert or Asamoah or Lilja, etc. Do you suppose people were saying Willie Roaf wasn't a good fit when the Chiefs brought him in in 2002? If they were, he made them look like idiots.

    Berry's made an impact? LOL. Apparently you don't remember another Safety the Chiefs drafted out of Tennessee by the name of Dale Carter in 1992. Carter's coverage skills were good enough that they moved him to CB. He had 7 INT's and 2 punt returns for TD's. Sure he made rookie mistakes, but, unlike Berry, he went full speed on every play whereas Berry often looks lazy. Rare that a rookie makes an impact? Pure rubbish. It happens every year. Look no further than Dexter McCluster. The Eric Berry worshipers were stating over and over about what a huge impact he was going to make and that he was the ultimate difference maker, but he's not even been remotely close to being as good as I hoped he would be and there is no comparison between him and Dale Carter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryfo18 View Post
    That stat listing is totally bogus. Okung has not given up any sacks. Go watch all of Seattle's games that he has played in. I'm subscriber to NFL Game Rewind & I've watched the games & can tell you for a fact, that there was one play against the Rams that was ruled an incomplete pass and that was closest that Okung came to giving up a sack.

    As for run stats that you put in your later post, I never said run blocking was a problem for Albert -- it's pass blocking against the better DE's in the league. I also never said that "Albert sucked", that was you that said that. I've said that he's OK to a point, but the Chiefs need better, if they want to get to the post season and advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryfo18 View Post
    Just b/c our LT gets beat by All-Pro guys like Aaron Kampman or Dwight Freeney doesn't mean it's time to get a new LT. Did he suck last year? Absolutely. Is he showing tremendous improvement? Absolutely.
    Yes it does. It means the Chiefs need someone better at the position. or else they aren't going anywhere in the post season & probably not getting there to start with. Showed improvement? At what? Making a loud beer fart in a whirlwind? It certainly hasn't been pass-blocking against the leagues better DE's. But hey, if you want Albert as your LT, you got him, and if you and Pioli think he's improving & that the Chiefs are going places with him, well I'm sure that the Oakland Raiders and their fans are winking their eye at the both of you and saying to themselves "Keep thinking that way" .

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    I don't think it, I know Okung would have fit in. Why? Because he's a football player & a damn good one at his position -- and that's all it takes. Besides, OT's drafted in the top 15 have the lowest bust rate of any position. Please explain how he would not have fit in. You can't. Plain and simple. He would have fit in just like any other O-Line they've brought in, be it Albert or Asamoah or Lilja, etc. Do you suppose people were saying Willie Roaf wasn't a good fit when the Chiefs brought him in in 2002? If they were, he made them look like idiots.

    Berry's made an impact? LOL. Apparently you don't remember another Safety the Chiefs drafted out of Tennessee by the name of Dale Carter in 1992. Carter's coverage skills were good enough that they moved him to CB. He had 7 INT's and 2 punt returns for TD's. Sure he made rookie mistakes, but, unlike Berry, he went full speed on every play whereas Berry often looks lazy. Rare that a rookie makes an impact? Pure rubbish. It happens every year. Look no further than Dexter McCluster. The Eric Berry worshipers were stating over and over about what a huge impact he was going to make and that he was the ultimate difference maker, but he's not even been remotely close to being as good as I hoped he would be and there is no comparison between him and Dale Carter.



    That stat listing is totally bogus. Okung has not given up any sacks. Go watch all of Seattle's games that he has played in. I'm subscriber to NFL Game Rewind & I've watched the games & can tell you for a fact, that there was one play against the Rams that was ruled an incomplete pass and that was closest that Okung came to giving up a sack.

    As for run stats that you put in your later post, I never said run blocking was a problem for Albert -- it's pass blocking against the better DE's in the league. I also never said that "Albert sucked", that was you that said that. I've said that he's OK to a point, but the Chiefs need better, if they want to get to the post season and advance.



    Yes it does. It means the Chiefs need someone better at the position. or else they aren't going anywhere in the post season & probably not getting there to start with. Showed improvement? At what? Making a loud beer fart in a whirlwind? It certainly hasn't been pass-blocking against the leagues better DE's. But hey, if you want Albert as your LT, you got him, and if you and Pioli think he's improving & that the Chiefs are going places with him, well I'm sure that the Oakland Raiders and their fans are winking their eye at the both of you and saying to themselves "Keep thinking that way" .
    I would love to go back and watch Seattle's games. I'll see if I can get the quick hits on Sunday ticket from that game.

    As far as the source, I'm not going to question it. Stats LLC is the biggest provider of data. If you go to their about page you'll see their the brains behind the stats that ESPN, NFL, NBA, Fox Sports, etc...

    Here's a typical job posting for a data collector, they don't hire schlubs off the street (I only know this b/c I've been interested in a job before with them):

    STATS is seeking applicants with pro or college football playing experience for an opening to assist with football video analysis during the fall. This is a year-round position, and excellent working knowledge of other sports is critical. Other duties include data entry and stat-checking.
    I found another random posting of a guy claiming Okung had given up 2 sacks: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Cover-2: Revisiting the Rookies (look for Hunter)

    I know you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but it's all I have to go off of unless I can find the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    I don't think it, I know Okung would have fit in. Why? Because he's a football player & a damn good one at his position -- and that's all it takes. Besides, OT's drafted in the top 15 have the lowest bust rate of any position. Please explain how he would not have fit in. You can't. Plain and simple. He would have fit in just like any other O-Line they've brought in, be it Albert or Asamoah or Lilja, etc. Do you suppose people were saying Willie Roaf wasn't a good fit when the Chiefs brought him in in 2002? If they were, he made them look like idiots.

    Berry's made an impact? LOL. Apparently you don't remember another Safety the Chiefs drafted out of Tennessee by the name of Dale Carter in 1992. Carter's coverage skills were good enough that they moved him to CB. He had 7 INT's and 2 punt returns for TD's. Sure he made rookie mistakes, but, unlike Berry, he went full speed on every play whereas Berry often looks lazy. Rare that a rookie makes an impact? Pure rubbish. It happens every year. Look no further than Dexter McCluster. The Eric Berry worshipers were stating over and over about what a huge impact he was going to make and that he was the ultimate difference maker, but he's not even been remotely close to being as good as I hoped he would be and there is no comparison between him and Dale Carter.

    Just because a guy has a lot of talent does not mean he would have fit what Haley weis and the Chiefs have planned on offense. You can have a lot of talent and not be a good team if it does not fit. See the Dallas Cowboys. See the Vikings. They have a lot more talent then there records would say. In anther sport talent alone The Miami heat would win just about every game they last i saw were only 5-4 . We WILL NEVER no how Okung would have fit in KC. That is FACT. You can think it would have worked but We don't no.

    I do remember Dale Carter. Yes Rookies can make an Impact right away like he did. But There are some darn good football players that don't. Again Peyton manning. Look at his first year. You would have got rid of him if you were in charge of the Colts. I think it worked out well for the colts even though his rookie year was lackluster. How about Brett Farve. As a rookie he was not even good enough to see the field on game day. I think Falcon fans would rethink that trade in a heartbeat knowing what we know now. The Dale Carters are more the exception then the Rule.

    Do you remember what our secoundary looked like a year ago. Mike Brown missing tackles allowing guys to run right in the endzone coasting us points and wins. And he was a Vet. Sure Berry has made mistakes but hes better then Brown did for us. And he is only at the start of his carrer. It might not have been the best pick for this team I will grant you that but we CAN NOT say that it was a bad pick.

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    From the St. Louis game, go look at LB David Vobora's sack (Okung fails to recognize the zone blitz)...and you already pointed out the play where James Hall beats him with a spin move. That was overturned and ruled incomplete. Says he gave up 2 sacks, in 3 games. Not sure what the 3rd game he played in was outside Chicago and St. Louis.
    Last edited by Ryfo18; 11-16-2010 at 09:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthewschiefs View Post
    Just because a guy has a lot of talent does not mean he would have fit what Haley weis and the Chiefs have planned on offense. You can have a lot of talent and not be a good team if it does not fit. See the Dallas Cowboys. See the Vikings. They have a lot more talent then there records would say. In anther sport talent alone The Miami heat would win just about every game they last i saw were only 5-4 . We WILL NEVER no how Okung would have fit in KC. That is FACT. You can think it would have worked but We don't no.

    I do remember Dale Carter. Yes Rookies can make an Impact right away like he did. But There are some darn good football players that don't. Again Peyton manning. Look at his first year. You would have got rid of him if you were in charge of the Colts. I think it worked out well for the colts even though his rookie year was lackluster. How about Brett Farve. As a rookie he was not even good enough to see the field on game day. I think Falcon fans would rethink that trade in a heartbeat knowing what we know now. The Dale Carters are more the exception then the Rule.

    Do you remember what our secoundary looked like a year ago. Mike Brown missing tackles allowing guys to run right in the endzone coasting us points and wins. And he was a Vet. Sure Berry has made mistakes but hes better then Brown did for us. And he is only at the start of his carrer. It might not have been the best pick for this team I will grant you that but we CAN NOT say that it was a bad pick.
    You gotta be kidding. With the O-Line that the Chiefs have now, if an O-Lineman can hold his d!ck in his hand, he can fit in with the Chiefs. O-Line coach Bill Muir wanted the Chiefs to draft Okung at #5.

    Chiefs Coach Wanted Russell Okung | KC Chiefs Blog

    Tell me, why would Muir want the Chiefs to draft Okung if Muir didn't think that Okung could fit in. Okung is a solid citizen, hard worker, inhumanly strong and would have been more than happy to have been drafted by KC and would have done whatever the coaches asked of him -- and he could play for any team in the NFL, as he's already demonstrated when he's been on the field. THAT'S HOW I KNOW THAT HE WOULD HAVE FIT IN JUST FINE !! Barring injuries, of course, but that holds true for any player. It's not "we" who don't know how Okung would've fit in -- it's YOU who doesn't know because that's a silly whim that you have put into your own mind.

    As for Berry, he looks like a Mike Brown clone to me, thus far, and I've seen many rookie Safeties through the years play a hell of a lot better than Berry has thus far. I can say it was a bad pick -- he was drafted too high, way overpaid, the Safety position provides minimal positional value, and it didn't address the big elephant in the room -- the O-Line -- bad decision and bad choice. I never said anything about getting rid of Berry. Do you not think that I'm fully aware that they couldn't get rid of him at this point even if they wanted to due to the contract that they signed him to and that they are stuck with him for the time being for better or worse? You're statement implying that I would get rid of him when you suggested that I'd get rid of Manning is not only way off-base, but not even remotely in the ballpark.

    I will say this: Berry can be likened to that shiny sports car that everybody wants, but once they get it, they realize it was mistake because they can't pay the taxes on it, they can't haul anything in it, and it gets poor mileage and come to the realization that they'd have been better served with the Mack Truck instead ( O-Lineman ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryfo18 View Post
    From the St. Louis game, go look at LB David Vobora's sack (Okung fails to recognize the zone blitz)...and you already pointed out the play where James Hall beats him with a spin move. That was overturned and ruled incomplete. Says he gave up 2 sacks, in 3 games. Not sure what the 3rd game he played in was outside Chicago and St. Louis.
    I saw the sack by Vobora & it was because he came clean off of the edge & another defender in front of Okung started forward and then dropped back. Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well ( assuming you want to charge the OT with giving up the sack on that play seeing that the defender did not go head on with the OT ). It wasn't because Vobora went head to head with Okung & beat him.

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    I know for a fact Okung has missed playing time on two seperate occasioms this year. This has to make you wonder about his durability.

    Looking ahead to next years draft. Yhere will not be an NFL quality LT available when we draft. We should be able to ger a good RT in the 2nd rd however.
    I expect us to go WR, OLB or CB in the 1st rd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    You gotta be kidding. With the O-Line that the Chiefs have now, if an O-Lineman can hold his d!ck in his hand, he can fit in with the Chiefs. O-Line coach Bill Muir wanted the Chiefs to draft Okung at #5.

    Chiefs Coach Wanted Russell Okung | KC Chiefs Blog

    Tell me, why would Muir want the Chiefs to draft Okung if Muir didn't think that Okung could fit in. Okung is a solid citizen, hard worker, inhumanly strong and would have been more than happy to have been drafted by KC and would have done whatever the coaches asked of him -- and he could play for any team in the NFL, as he's already demonstrated when he's been on the field. THAT'S HOW I KNOW THAT HE WOULD HAVE FIT IN JUST FINE !! Barring injuries, of course, but that holds true for any player. It's not "we" who don't know how Okung would've fit in -- it's YOU who doesn't know because that's a silly whim that you have put into your own mind.

    As for Berry, he looks like a Mike Brown clone to me, thus far, and I've seen many rookie Safeties through the years play a hell of a lot better than Berry has thus far. I can say it was a bad pick -- he was drafted too high, way overpaid, the Safety position provides minimal positional value, and it didn't address the big elephant in the room -- the O-Line -- bad decision and bad choice. I never said anything about getting rid of Berry. Do you not think that I'm fully aware that they couldn't get rid of him at this point even if they wanted to due to the contract that they signed him to and that they are stuck with him for the time being for better or worse? You're statement implying that I would get rid of him when you suggested that I'd get rid of Manning is not only way off-base, but not even remotely in the ballpark.

    I will say this: Berry can be likened to that shiny sports car that everybody wants, but once they get it, they realize it was mistake because they can't pay the taxes on it, they can't haul anything in it, and it gets poor mileage and come to the realization that they'd have been better served with the Mack Truck instead ( O-Lineman ).




    I saw the sack by Vobora & it was because he came clean off of the edge & another defender in front of Okung started forward and then dropped back. Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well ( assuming you want to charge the OT with giving up the sack on that play seeing that the defender did not go head on with the OT ). It wasn't because Vobora went head to head with Okung & beat him.
    So because someone wanted to draft a guy that makes it a good pick now? I am sure that the faiders WANTED to draft Jamarcus Russle. GREAT PICK. Pretty sure back in 98 there were coaches on the Colts that WANTED to draft Ryan Leaf. HORRIBLE pick of Peyton Manning. Remember how Houston was going to regret passing on Reggie Bush for years. Mario Williams anther horrible pick. One coach wanted him we didn't take him Pretty sure that means more people WANTED to draft Berry. Every coach on EVERY team wants there team to draft someone in there spot. They want a new guy to try to coach and think it will help there team. Bill Muir is no diffrent.

    I would agree that safety was not the best pick for this team. I said it time and time again before the draft. But I won't pretend to know better then a guy in Pioli who has something called superbowl rings.


    I find it funny that you make excuse for Okung when he makes a mistake and gives up a sack but when Brandon Carr gets smoked by a WR and Berry also makes a mistake the blame gos on Berry. Okung has made rookie mistakes just like Berry. IT HAPPENS. Okung would have made mistakes here. Just like Berry has. That fact won't change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matthewschiefs View Post
    So because someone wanted to draft a guy that makes it a good pick now? I am sure that the faiders WANTED to draft Jamarcus Russle. GREAT PICK. Pretty sure back in 98 there were coaches on the Colts that WANTED to draft Ryan Leaf. HORRIBLE pick of Peyton Manning. Remember how Houston was going to regret passing on Reggie Bush for years. Mario Williams anther horrible pick. One coach wanted him we didn't take him Pretty sure that means more people WANTED to draft Berry. Every coach on EVERY team wants there team to draft someone in there spot. They want a new guy to try to coach and think it will help there team. Bill Muir is no diffrent.

    I would agree that safety was not the best pick for this team. I said it time and time again before the draft. But I won't pretend to know better then a guy in Pioli who has something called superbowl rings.


    I find it funny that you make excuse for Okung when he makes a mistake and gives up a sack but when Brandon Carr gets smoked by a WR and Berry also makes a mistake the blame gos on Berry. Okung has made rookie mistakes just like Berry. IT HAPPENS. Okung would have made mistakes here. Just like Berry has. That fact won't change.
    I did not say that Okung did not mistake, nor was I making an excuse for him. I was simply stating what happened on that play. He guessed wrong, but there's a good chance that any OT would have guessed wrong on that play with the same result. You are ripping things out of context. The draft pick examples you are giving are not good ones at all and not even close to the same scenario regarding the Chiefs 2010 draft. Not even in the ballpark

    Pioli wasn't the reason that NE won 3 Super Bowls. It's Belicheck who was the major catalyst. Pioli was just along for the ride & didn't do anything sifnificant, except maybe carry his lunch to work everyday in a Donald Duck lunchbox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    I saw the sack by Vobora & it was because he came clean off of the edge & another defender in front of Okung started forward and then dropped back. Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well ( assuming you want to charge the OT with giving up the sack on that play seeing that the defender did not go head on with the OT ). It wasn't because Vobora went head to head with Okung & beat him.
    You seem to make every excuse in the world for Okung, but when it comes to Albert (or Berry), they can't have that same courtesy.

    It's a zone blitz, Okung has to react to the blitzing linebacker as soon as the defender drops back. I can't say whether or not Albert would pick this up, but I'm going to assume for now that at least once this year he's faced a similar situation and reacted fine.
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