Unions

[Hayvern]

In the main topic area, I have been ranting on unions lately, and I think I should explain why I have such hatred for unions.

I worked in a number of unions in my years being on this planet. My first foray into the world of legalized extortion came when I worked on a Government contract installing public utilities. To work for the government you had to be in a union. It did not say what union it had to be, so my company chose a different union than the local chapter.

So we got picketed. I remember having a guy standing over me as I was working hooking up a natural gas line and had him screaming at me, all the time he was standing there with a lit cig and endangering my life. We called the police, but was told there was nothing they could do. So for two weeks these guys put not only MY life, but the lives of many other people in danger for their "right" to picket my workplace.

It did not stop there though. We would come in to work and find our equipment dangerously sabotaged. One morning, the lug nuts had been loosened on my work truck, had I not been diligent about inspecting the truck each morning me and my crew could have been killed.

My next round came when I worked in the public school system. They took my monthly dues, no matter if I wanted them to or not. Oh, they game me a choice to not be in the union, but they were going to take my dues anyway. Then, they took those same dues and used them to support government legislation that ultimately led to my job being taken away. There was no defense for me, I was let go unceremoniously and left without the 2 years of dues I paid for nothing.

Unions had a purpose at one point, and they could still have a purpose again, but the unyielding attitude of the people who are members of those unions need to change. The days of the union caring about the workers are over, they are some of the most powerful organizations in the United States and are certainly more powerful than the very CEOs that end up hiring their workers. Something is terribly wrong with that.

[Drunker Hillbilly]

How is the Motor city doing?

The Union is dying.

What? You mean the bailout...eeeerrrrrrrr the stimulous is not helping?

[Hayvern]

Yeah, it is pretty clear where Chief31 is coming from here. He is pretty clear that Management is all the problem here and not the higher price of workers.

I agree with him. Management in many cases is the problem, management has let this get out of control all of these years. Management has allowed people to be lazy, they have allowed the union to push them around, and now, like the bear who gets a free handout and forgets how to hunt, the union worker screams when they are asked to give back for the benefit of everyone else.

This is why GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to close. It is why the state's with billions in debt from pension benefits should file bankruptcy. The unions and particularly their workers need to go through an adjustment and the only way to do that is to go bankrupt on all the stupidity that has been allowed in the past.

Yeah, it sucks, but welcome to the suck club, the rest of us are sucking it up, but this union monster just won't give.

[70 chiefsfan70]

Unions are the cancer to the American economy. They cannot be sustained, with all these lifetime pension plans, etc. It is a joke. America will be destroyed just as Rome was. Unions are one of the biggest factors in this economical destruction. It will happen....it isn't a question of if, it is a question of when. Oh well. It was a fun ride while it lasted, folks!

I couldn't agree more! I'm in construction and come across state and government jobs all the time, and what really gets me is I can't even bid on these jobs because I'm non union. In many cases I could do these jobs as well as anyone could and I would hire 100 percent local help. The Union carpenters around here that I've seen do the worst job ever and would never pass the local inspection except for the fact that they are above the law(so to speak).

Now back to the players union, they are just plain greedy and could care less about the players, its all about the dollar. The free market takes care of itself, each team should have their own benefit package, and allow the players to choose. The teams would not have to spent as much money and the players would make more, thus the tickets would be more affordable. Everyone wins!

Just my 2 cents.

[chief31]

Yeah, it is pretty clear where Chief31 is coming from here. He is pretty clear that Management is all the problem here and not the higher price of workers.

I agree with him. Management in many cases is the problem, management has let this get out of control all of these years. Management has allowed people to be lazy, they have allowed the union to push them around, and now, like the bear who gets a free handout and forgets how to hunt, the union worker screams when they are asked to give back for the benefit of everyone else.

This is why GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to close. It is why the state's with billions in debt from pension benefits should file bankruptcy. The unions and particularly their workers need to go through an adjustment and the only way to do that is to go bankrupt on all the stupidity that has been allowed in the past.

Yeah, it sucks, but welcome to the suck club, the rest of us are sucking it up, but this union monster just won't give.

I'll put ten union workers against any ten non-union workers any day. So long as it is under the same quality of management.

The nonsense about union workers being lazy is just that...nonsense. Unsubstantiated, generalized rhetoric.

And the wages are at, or near, where they should be for a labor-level employee. (Nowhere near the numbers that you offered up though.) The majority of this nation is in this class, and they should be able to make a living for a family, and help put a child, or two, through college. I do not think that American employees should be competing against starving Chinese slaves.

[Drunker Hillbilly]

Unions make up apprx 10-12% of the general labor population.....

God forbid they pay what the rest of working society pays for health care etc........

And for the record, I don't believe all union workers are lazy. There aer lazy workers on both sides of this fence. I do however believe lifetime (or damn near) pensions for doing the same work as a person who is not a union member is BS. IMO, most union members are unwilling to listen to any new legislation or are unwilling to negotiate because they have had it easier than the avg non union worker when it comes to the perks of being union. This country is in dire straights and they could benefit the country more than they would ever know if they were willing to just accept and adhere to what the rest of working, blue collar Americans do.

[chief31]

Unions make up apprx 10-12% of the general labor population.....

God forbid they pay what the rest of working society pays for health care etc........

Healthcare is clearly insane.

My question would be "Why should the non-union workers be having to pay the insane amounts?" as opposed to why should union workers get a better deal.

(Healthcare really aught to be one of the few things the government runs. It's the only way end the insanity, without allowing the poor just die because they get sick, or injured.)

And for the record, I don't believe all union workers are lazy. There aer lazy workers on both sides of this fence. I do however believe lifetime (or damn near) pensions for doing the same work as a person who is not a union member is BS.

Don't you think that a man who puts in a full career to help a company make millions should be treated fairly, with, or without, a union?

I do.

But without a group voice, (union) you can't get a large company to even listen to the discussion.

IMO, most union members are unwilling to listen to any new legislation or are unwilling to negotiate because they have had it easier than the avg non union worker when it comes to the perks of being union. This country is in dire straights and they could benefit the country more than they would ever know if they were willing to just accept and adhere to what the rest of working, blue collar Americans do.

Being in a union gives you a voice against an otherwise unwilling to listen large company.

The company is a large group who frequently uses that group power to impose their will on employees, and a union is just a large group of employees working together to counter that kind of one-sided relationship.

Employees need jobs, and employers need workers. The two sides have to be able to work together. If you negotiate as an individual, you will be forced to take whatever the employer decides.

When the working class works together, those talks become two-sided. And they are forced to work together.

As for being unwilling to listen to negotiate, I think this is something that could be said of anybody. But I think tough negotiations are exactly what a Union is about.

The UAW has given back in each of the past several contracts with Caterpillar Inc. (My employer) So I know that The UAW definitely does negotiate.

Unfortunately, Caterpillar Inc. makes a habit of finding loop-holes in any, and every, term that they have agreed to, just the same as any big corporation does.

Laws get passed, and labor contracts are signed, to keep employers from being predatory to the working class, and they cheat those laws and agreements.

Outsource, hire part-time and temporary workers, and just plain find a fault in the way laws are worded.

Last contract, Caterpillar told The UAW "unless you want us to be forced to move the jobs away from the area, you are going to have to accept what we are offering in this contract".

The UAW did accept, including major changes (less) for all employees, and Caterpillar still moved their entire engine-building operation.

In order to deal with an entity that is so satisfied to play dirty, you have to play a little dirty yourself.

Far from perfect. But, unless you are happier with Marxism, anarchy, or a form of slavery, then I don't think there is any way to keep the owners semi-honest.

They aren't going to do it themselves.

[Lazeye]

Screw the Union it is outdated and they are uncalled for. EVERY union employee I have EVER met is lazy and think they can do things however and they will not get in trouble. If pay was based on performance then well union people would be on welfare. F UNIONS

[Hayvern]

The interesting thing about Wisconsin right now where everyone is all fired up is that the unions aren't really looking out very well for the workers. The Governor there has said that unless this deal goes through, then 12,000 people will be laid off.

I say, lay them off and let them go get a real job for a while and see how they like it.. Unfortunately, the way unions work is those that are lowest on the totem pole will get laid off first, leaving the expensive and most lazy of the lot.

None of these arguments apply to the players union though. There is little liklihood that the NFL will outsource to China, and there is little liklihood that NFL players are all that lazy with the exception if Jamarcus Russell perhaps.

In this argument it is clearly about money and each side wants more of it. I tend to go along with the owners on this as they are the businessmen in this situation and know what they have to make in order to sustain their business.

I feel that all of you who are siding with the players here would have a different outlook if you were looking at the real numbers and had to make the hard business decisions the owners have to make.

[Drunker Hillbilly]

Healthcare is clearly insane.

My question would be "Why should the non-union workers be having to pay the insane amounts?" as opposed to why should union workers get a better deal.

(Healthcare really aught to be one of the few things the government runs. It's the only way end the insanity, without allowing the poor just die because they get sick, or injured.)



Don't you think that a man who puts in a full career to help a company make millions should be treated fairly, with, or without, a union?

I do.

But without a group voice, (union) you can't get a large company to even listen to the discussion.





Being in a union gives you a voice against an otherwise unwilling to listen large company.

The company is a large group who frequently uses that group power to impose their will on employees, and a union is just a large group of employees working together to counter that kind of one-sided relationship.

Employees need jobs, and employers need workers. The two sides have to be able to work together. If you negotiate as an individual, you will be forced to take whatever the employer decides.

When the working class works together, those talks become two-sided. And they are forced to work together.

As for being unwilling to listen to negotiate, I think this is something that could be said of anybody. But I think tough negotiations are exactly what a Union is about.

The UAW has given back in each of the past several contracts with Caterpillar Inc. (My employer) So I know that The UAW definitely does negotiate.

Unfortunately, Caterpillar Inc. makes a habit of finding loop-holes in any, and every, term that they have agreed to, just the same as any big corporation does.

Laws get passed, and labor contracts are signed, to keep employers from being predatory to the working class, and they cheat those laws and agreements.

Outsource, hire part-time and temporary workers, and just plain find a fault in the way laws are worded.

Last contract, Caterpillar told The UAW "unless you want us to be forced to move the jobs away from the area, you are going to have to accept what we are offering in this contract".

The UAW did accept, including major changes (less) for all employees, and Caterpillar still moved their entire engine-building operation.

In order to deal with an entity that is so satisfied to play dirty, you have to play a little dirty yourself.

Far from perfect. But, unless you are happier with Marxism, anarchy, or a form of slavery, then I don't think there is any way to keep the owners semi-honest.

They aren't going to do it themselves.

To answer your question, it's called Capitalism. 9.99% of people who are arguing against this would have and entirely different opinion if they were a CEO and/or owner of a large corporation. Socialist countries have exactly what you are intimating. Equal cost for everyone. It simply doesn't work that way in a capitalistic society.

Unions would be and were fine 30-40 years ago. The country is bankrupt and the unions are part of the reason. Part I say again.

Why are union members opposed to paying 10%-12% for their own healthcare?

Why are union member opposed to bumping their share of their own LIFELONG pensions to 5%-6%?

If unions are the answer, then why not make every single person that works, no matter the job, a union member? You don't think ALL AMERICAN workers would absolutely LOVE to have the benefits that union members do?

It's insanity!!! Also, don't get me started on the idiots that have flee'd to Illinios! Leaders are people who stand for what they believe in and do it in the face of adversity. These 14 people are clearly not leaders.

[chief31]

Unions would be and were fine 30-40 years ago. The country is bankrupt and the unions are part of the reason. Part I say again.

The country is bankrupt....

That sounds so familiar....

Oh yeah. The great depression is exactly what drove workers to eventually stand up to the masters and demand to get their fair share.

The only part of this nation that is going broke, is those at the bottom. If you were a millionaire before this recession, then you still are.

All penalties "trickle down" to the working class, while all benefits trickle up to the masters.

Why are union members opposed to paying 10%-12% for their own healthcare?

Why are union member opposed to bumping their share of their own LIFELONG pensions to 5%-6%?

That's how it goes when dealing with business. That's the way bargaining is done. It is definitely the way the companies will play that game. Challenge everything, and you get your best deal.

To answer your question, it's called Capitalism. 9.99% of people who are arguing against this would have and entirely different opinion if they were a CEO and/or owner of a large corporation. Socialist countries have exactly what you are intimating. Equal cost for everyone. It simply doesn't work that way in a capitalistic society.

Unions are also a part of capitalism. It is the free market of supply and demand.

The laborers have a commodity that companies need, and they supply it for a price.

The days of the companies setting all the prices for their own demands are gone for those with unionized employees.

Now, you have to bargain, as in any trade situation, with those who have the supply of the commodity that you require.

It's exactly capitalism, and yet capitalists hate it, and have cheated their beloved capitalism for the communism of China to avoid it.

If unions are the answer, then why not make every single person that works, no matter the job, a union member? You don't think ALL AMERICAN workers would absolutely LOVE to have the benefits that union members do?

I don't.

If they did, then they would all be unionizing.

But so many are just content to "take the scraps that are offered", so to speak, and call those who have unionized "lazy" because they do unionize to get their employers to negotiate with them, for the things that both sides need.

It never ceases to amaze me how those who horde and acquire multiple private jets, yachts, mansions, and other million dollar toys, without doing a real day's work, get the people who do the work that makes them millionaires, to turn on each other, and actually call the other workers lazy.

I honestly believe that it has to be some sort of submissiveness issue. The masses feel so inferior to the astonishingly wealthy, that they can't even begin to stand up to them, so they take on the guy that know, who does the same kind of work as they do, but gets more for it.

As if it is only fair for all labor-level workers to be suffering, and it's just fine for the upper class to go on just as they always have, reaping all of the benefits.

It's exactly the kind of mentality that has kept so many middle-eastern people slaving away for their master. Fear of reprisal from the master.

And, when the masters do punish us by taking away our bread, (as with moving industry out of the nation) they get us all to blame the slaves that stood up to the masters, and let the masters off the hook.

It's insanity!!!

Indeed it is.