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Thread: Some Interesting Numbers as We Watch the Labor Agreement Unfold

  1. #1
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    Default Some Interesting Numbers as We Watch the Labor Agreement Unfold


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    hey gang,

    I ran across some interesting information on Forbes.com that I compiled and thought I would put up here for some comparison purposes.

    It all has to do with the amount of money in the NFL these days and where that money is being spent. These numbers are from the 2009 season.

    First, a little information about the numbers.

    Current Value = The latest value of the team
    Revenue = The amount of gross income the team received in 2009
    Operating Income = The amount of money left over after expenses but before taxes and interest payments
    Player Expense = The amount of money spent on player salaries, benefits and bonuses
    Gate Receipts = The amount of money from ticket sales including club seating
    Margin Percentage = (not really correct here, but works) this is the percentage of operating income against total revenue
    Players Percentage = the percentage of player costs to revenue
    Overhead = the amount of money that was spent on overhead including stadium costs and everything else that it takes to run the team

    Ok so here are the best and worse along with the Chiefs in each category

    Current Value:
    Dallas Cowboys = 1.8 billion
    KC Chiefs = 965 Million 20th overall
    Jaguars = 725 million

    Revenue
    Cowboys = 420 million
    Chiefs = 235 million 23rd overall
    Lions = 210 million

    Operating Income
    Cowboys = 143.3 million
    Chiefs = 47.8 Million 6th overall
    Dolphins = -7.7 million

    Player Expense
    Giants 166 million
    Chiefs 111 million (we were last in this category)

    Gate Receipts
    Cowboys 112 million
    Chiefs 53 million 16th overall
    Raiders 34 million

    Overhead costs
    Cowboys = 133.7 million
    Chiefs = 76.2 million 14th
    Bills = 57.8 million

    I found this interesting. It looks like the owners could learn a few things from the owner of the Bills on how to get costs down.

    Overall, here are some interesting numbers league wide to think about.

    All the teams in the NFL have a combined value of 32.6 BILLION dollars

    All the teams in the NFL collected 8 billion in revenue for the 2009 season

    All the teams in the NFL ended up with 1 billion in operating income. Interestingly enough, this is what the owners have stated they want to keep that amount at.

    Players have received 4.494 billion in expenses, or 56.06% of total revenue.

    Overhead, or somtimes called operating costs are in excess of 2.45 billion dollars collectively or 30% of revenue.

    For those of you who are business savvy, those numbers will mean something to you. For those of you who see that the players only get 56% and really don't know much about business you will think the players should get more. Interestingly enough, with a margin of 13.3% overall, the NFL is healthy, but not getting overly rich.

    Putting that in perspective, if you owned your own business in construction. If your company made 100K in revenue in one year, you would have made 13K for your troubles. Its all about volume.

    It appears some teams could work hard to get their costs down and save some money, which is another of the owners demands as they ask the players to pick up flights and hotel rooms on their own.

    Anyway, I thought this information was interesting. If you want to see the numbers for yourself. You can visit:

    #32 Jacksonville Jaguars - Forbes.com and walk backwards through each team from the end forward.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    To give you a comparison. Microsoft has a 40% operating margin and a 30% profit margin

    Netflix has a 31.73% Profit Margin

    Caterpillar has a 7.11% profit margin OH snap, can we say union?

    General Motors 1.1% profit and 1.7% operating margin, wow unions strike again

    Verizon 57.7 % Profit Margin

    Apple Computers 40% profit margin

    So you can see that at less than 13%, the NFL owners are not nearly getting as rich as others, but at least they are not yet down to Government bailout levels like GM.
    As we can see, IT and communications industries are more profitable than others. Probably in 100 years won't be that much.

    How much Microsoft invests in salaries? I think most GM workers would love to have a job in MS.

    Those industries are far away from a sport venture, you can't compare thou.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pojote View Post
    As we can see, IT and communications industries are more profitable than others. Probably in 100 years won't be that much.

    How much Microsoft invests in salaries? I think most GM workers would love to have a job in MS.

    Those industries are far away from a sport venture, you can't compare thou.
    Actually because of unions you'd be suprized what a GM worker makes. Granted I'm not part of GM nor do I know anyone that works there but I've heard that unionized people (which GM employs) make anywhere from 20 to 40 bucks an hour.

    I do however work in the IT world and can say that that is on par with what an IT person makes so I think that GM employees would happily stay exactly where they're at. Especially when you factor in that when GM employees strike GM HAS to pay them something like 90 to 95% of their salary.

    So to wrap it up I'm thinking any unionized employee of GM would laugh at switching to an IT job.

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    at the very least, they are either trying to save face with the fans, or have been getting something done the last 5 days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    I did forget about that, but rather I was not aware of that. What I will have to do though, is go back and see how that factors into the numbers, because ultimately the only thing that changes is whether the operating costs, those subtractions that leave operating income, are included or are over and above the expenses incurred. This I do not know for sure.

    Interestingly enough, when you calculate expenses with the numbers, the total in expenses is stated to be 2 billion dollars. So if the 1 billion dollar allowance is factored in, owners are still paying 1 billion in expenses league wide.

    That would leave 26% in operating margin, which is certainly better than 13% and places them squarely in the profitable range.

    I am guessing that the 1 billion expense allowance is a bookkeeping tactic to avoid having to pay taxes on the first billion received. The same way someone who is paid per diem for working away from home gets that money tax free, which is why it would likely not be reported in revenue, I was just not aware of it.

    The interesting thing to find out, which might be in the NFLPA contract, is how much per diem player's receive for travel expenses and lodging. For the numbers to be fair, that money should ALSO be factored into what the players get if you are going to fractor in the owner's expense allowance. Again, since that is not classified as income, then it would not be reported as salary. It could be part of the expense costs.
    No need to do all that. I already did that for you. You know... you made some big long speech to challenge the fact that that $1 billion doesn't count?

    Yeah. Same billion dollars.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Either way, I never claimed this was the be all end all, nor was it meant to make the case for or against the players. These guys all make more money than I can ever dream of, so let the rick fight out there own.

    Ultimately though, if the owners cannot afford to field the teams, the NFL will fail. Players come and players go, and the product may not be as good, but it would still be a product without the current crop of players, without the owners, you got nothing.
    Yeah. Because the owners are irreplacable?

    Ya know what? I bet if the current owners decided to get out of the business, there would be other people willing to get into the business.

    But then, I don't see any mass defection of owners due to poor profits, do you?

    Didn't think of that? How could you have overlooked that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Wowo good for you, you understand 5th grade math


    WOW, look at you go!
    Yeah. It's pretty easy.

    But you'll get lost in a second. I'll see if I can help you get back on the fifth grade train in a second...


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Actually, this is where you lose it. That is not how Operating Income works. Operating income is what is left over from revenue AFTER expenses are factored. So your math gets off base here, that is alright, we have moved into business concepts now.
    Yeah, see. I knew you wouldn't be able to follow.

    "Overhead, or somtimes called operating costs are in excess of 2.45 billion dollars collectively or 30% of revenue."

    Now, we can do this simple math now, later, or go back to the beginning and do it. But the result is the same.

    First thing that happens is the $1 billion for owners, right off the top.

    Then they get their share of total revenue.

    From that point on, all costs and totals seem to come only from that total revenue, and no other mention of that $1 billion ever happens. The 13.3% comes directly from total revenue, and never touches the $1billion that was taken off the top.

    So the owners collect that $1 billion, but they don't have it included in their 13.3%.

    All I did was factor that in with the 13.3% of total revenue that they kept. (before taxes)




    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Operating Income = Gross Income - Operating Expenses - Depreciation
    Depreciation isn't going to factor in this year. The average value of NFL teams didn't depreciate in 2009.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    This is where you are wrong. Total profit is not factored into this in any way. The calculation of profit is operating income minus taxes and interest payments.
    Well, since neither of us is a tax man for billion dollar firms, let's just call my numbers "Before all taxes".

    I guarantee they get some write-offs that most of us will have never heard of. But let's not bother to go that deep. We can just say that they had to pay taxes on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    I do not have the numbers on profit, but it will be less than the 1 billion that is stated in the article when you make the subtractions. It will obviously change per team, for instance, I am sure the Chiefs financed their stadium renovations and that interest payment will come off of operating income. What is the interest payment on 375 million? I don't have a clue.
    You don't have a clue. But you are wanting to submit the notion that the "Overhead, or somtimes called operating costs" didn't include all of the operating costs.

    How about if we suffice it to say that operating costs does include those operating costs?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Actually, I cannot calculate total profit since I do not know what each team pays in taxes and interest as stated above, but the average operating income around the league is more like 33.4 million, almost half of what you say it is. It is a pretty common mistake.
    No mistake.

    You chose to make guesses at what they pay in taxes, and I chose to just call it "before taxes".

    Everybody knows what that means.And it allows everybody to make their own guesses as to what they actually get to put into their Swiss accounts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Well as proven above, owners are not making that on average,
    Wait... what did you prove again? That you don't know, or that you don't have a clue?

    Those statements are proof of nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    but yeah, they make millions of dollars. It is all economies of scale though. So the simple person sees 33 million and they say "Man that is a lot of money per year" and it is a lot of money I admit. But at the same time, how much money is the top contracts getting?

    Well here are some numbers from 2009

    NFL TeamAverage Annual Salary
    Julius Peppers, 16.6 million
    Carson Palmer 16.16 million
    Eli Manning 15.28 Million
    Namdi Asomugha 15.1 million
    Ben Rothlesberger 14.6 million
    Peyton Manning 14 million

    Some of those players made more money that year than the following teams:

    Carolina Panthers 15 million
    Green Bay Packers 9.8 million
    New York Jets 7.6 Million
    Oakland Raiders 2.2 Million
    New York Giants 2.1 Million
    Detroit Lions -2.9 million
    Miami Dolphins -7.7 million

    That's right, Asomugha made more money than the collective Raiders organization did. I find that very funny.

    The point here really is that the profit margin average for all the teams in the NFL is probably closer to 8 - 9% which is low.
    Yeah. Nevermind what the article said. Just make up your own numbers to try and make us feel sorry for the owners.

    How about if we stick with the 13.3% that the article mentioned, eh?

    We all make a certain amount before taxes, and we all realize that the amount you get after taxes is less. So we should all know that $64.5 million before taxes would be less than that later.

    No need to go trying to deflate that number and make it look less imposing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    To give you a comparison. Microsoft has a 40% operating margin and a 30% profit margin

    Netflix has a 31.73% Profit Margin

    Caterpillar has a 7.11% profit margin OH snap, can we say union?

    General Motors 1.1% profit and 1.7% operating margin, wow unions strike again

    Verizon 57.7 % Profit Margin

    Apple Computers 40% profit margin
    Tsk, tsk, tsk. Such a shame to have to take care of those who's backs you use to make your millions, ain't it?

    That sure would make a sad, sad movie.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    For a team to borrow money, and have cash on hand to run their business, they would need to have 10 - 12% to be considered healthy. Even though they have millions of dollars, it costs millions to run the team. When we look at it compared to our small 50K salaries it seems a travesty, but again, economy of scale comes into play here.



    So you can see that at less than 13%, the NFL owners are not nearly getting as rich as others, but at least they are not yet down to Government bailout levels like GM.
    Yeah. The poor little guys.

    All you did with all of this is try to get taxes, interest payments, and depreciation included to reduce the numbers. But all people have those same kind of expenses. No need to jumble the numbers. Just say that they have to pay taxes with their $64.5 million a year.

    Here's something that you haven't bothered to factor in, at any point...

    Owning an NFL team has more rewards than just your profit margin.

    If the profit margin for an NFL was at 1% somebody would still be dying to get into the business. Possibly because they care about football?

    Ya know, some people actually pay to pretend to own and run an NFL team. Because it is rewarding. Just as you have no problem saying that the players get paid to "play a game", so do the owners.

    If profit is your primary concern with your football team, then you have no business being in The NFL.

    It has to be about more than money in any business.

    Whatever business you are in, that is who you are. And if all you are about is profits, as with all big business, then that's who you are.

    And if you already have more than enough money to last you the rest of your life, and you are still in it for the profits, then you are unarguably greedy.

    If you want to defend greed as being ok, then take it up with God. I believe he did voice an opinion on the matter.

    The players may also be greedy. But I know that profit is not the only thing keeping them where they are. They can not stay in The NFL if they don't have a vast passion for the game. (Larry Johnson)

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    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    No need to do all that. I already did that for you. You know... you made some big long speech to challenge the fact that that $1 billion doesn't count?

    Yeah. Same billion dollars.
    Brilliant, I love how you leave out the whole concept of the billion dollars off the top, but then include it like you knew about it all along now. Brilliant move, dishonest, but brilliant, at least I admitted that I did not know about it. You could have done the same and then laid it on thicker and had more credibility in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    "Overhead, or somtimes called operating costs are in excess of 2.45 billion dollars collectively or 30% of revenue."

    Now, we can do this simple math now, later, or go back to the beginning and do it. But the result is the same.

    First thing that happens is the $1 billion for owners, right off the top.

    Then they get their share of total revenue.

    From that point on, all costs and totals seem to come only from that total revenue, and no other mention of that $1 billion ever happens. The 13.3% comes directly from total revenue, and never touches the $1billion that was taken off the top.

    So the owners collect that $1 billion, but they don't have it included in their 13.3%.
    Yeah, thanks to another individual here on the boards we have established that, too bad that was not part of your original calculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    All I did was factor that in with the 13.3% of total revenue that they kept. (before taxes)


    Oh, wow, so you added this in, but failed to mention it. You used my numbers and then in some weird way calculated it to show twice as much operating income, but never really mentioned it. Now you want to go back and include that to show you really knew what you were talking about all along?

    Nice plan, epic fail on execution though.




    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    Well, since neither of us is a tax man for billion dollar firms, let's just call my numbers "Before all taxes".


    As are mine, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    I guarantee they get some write-offs that most of us will have never heard of. But let's not bother to go that deep. We can just say that they had to pay taxes on it.
    I am sure they do, so do you think they have a way to hide all the taxes on that money? You think they do not pay ANY taxes on it, are you really trying to say that?


    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    You don't have a clue. But you are wanting to submit the notion that the "Overhead, or somtimes called operating costs" didn't include all of the operating costs.
    It is possible, there is two ways to account for it. You see Per Diem amounts are non-taxable and can be written off the top, or included as part of expenses. I am not sure if these numbers I got are from tax returns or some other type of accounting and the Forbes website does not say.

    The way my company calculates health care benefits falls under this. It does not show up as expenses on the financial reports because of the way it is accounted. If I was a CPA I could probably explain it better.

    Either way, I am admitting that I am not clear, but I would expect that those expenses are included here.

    [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    No mistake.

    You chose to make guesses at what they pay in taxes, and I chose to just call it "before taxes".


    So you really never read anything did you? If you had read what I posted you would know that Operating Income is calculated BEFORE TAXES and INTEREST PAYMENTS. My numbers do not account for what they might pay in taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    Everybody knows what that means.And it allows everybody to make their own guesses as to what they actually get to put into their Swiss accounts.


    Ok you have no proof of that, so I would be wary of implying that Clark Hunt is somehow breaking the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    How about if we stick with the 13.3% that the article mentioned, eh?

    We all make a certain amount before taxes, and we all realize that the amount you get after taxes is less. So we should all know that $64.5 million before taxes would be less than that later.
    Yeah, and if they only made 33.4 million, then that would be less as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    All you did with all of this is try to get taxes, interest payments, and depreciation included to reduce the numbers. But all people have those same kind of expenses. No need to jumble the numbers. Just say that they have to pay taxes with their $64.5 million a year.


    Once again, the 64.5 million number you have here is wrong. Sorry, but it is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    Here's something that you haven't bothered to factor in, at any point...

    Owning an NFL team has more rewards than just your profit margin.

    If the profit margin for an NFL was at 1% somebody would still be dying to get into the business. Possibly because they care about football?

    Ya know, some people actually pay to pretend to own and run an NFL team. Because it is rewarding. Just as you have no problem saying that the players get paid to "play a game", so do the owners.

    If profit is your primary concern with your football team, then you have no business being in The NFL.

    It has to be about more than money in any business.

    Whatever business you are in, that is who you are. And if all you are about is profits, as with all big business, then that's who you are.

    And if you already have more than enough money to last you the rest of your life, and you are still in it for the profits, then you are unarguably greedy.

    If you want to defend greed as being ok, then take it up with God. I believe he did voice an opinion on the matter.

    The players may also be greedy. But I know that profit is not the only thing keeping them where they are. They can not stay in The NFL if they don't have a vast passion for the game. (Larry Johnson)
    Yeah, perhaps, and that would be great for you. But there is also big business here and big money in this, both for the owners and the players. Greed goes all different ways, so you are willing to forgive the players for being greedy, and I guess it could be said I am defending the owners.

    Bottom line in this from a pure business perspective, the NFL is not all that and a bag of chips. Owners will always be there to try and take on a team, but just how many people can come up with a billion dollars to buy a team?

    Oh yeah, pretty much only those greedy buggars that stomped all over turd ball workers, that's who. Nevermind that these greedy buggers are the very people who gave you a darned job to begin with.

    I'm done, I pulled this together, and I have defended my numbers. I have admitted that they were not perfect, but at the same time, the reasoning is sound. You can make fun of it all you want, but if you are going to come in here and criticize me, then you would be better served to have first read the posts before doing so.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post
    Brilliant, I love how you leave out the whole concept of the billion dollars off the top, but then include it like you knew about it all along now. Brilliant move, dishonest, but brilliant, at least I admitted that I did not know about it. You could have done the same and then laid it on thicker and had more credibility in the end.
    Well, I wouldn't say brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    But he also mentions that "All the teams in the NFL ended up with 1 billion in operating income."

    That comes out before they determine the Total revenue. Sort of like "before taxes". They take that right our of the grand total, then work the numbers with what remains.
    Ooooo. And definitely not so dishonest?

    Maybe you just don't bother to comprehend.

    I knew about it from an earlier thread, but, it is directly mentioned in your thread starter.

    Twice you saw it and still denied it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayvern View Post

    All the teams in the NFL ended up with 1 billion in operating income. Interestingly enough, this is what the owners have stated they want to keep that amount at.
    It's one thing to not comprehend what I posted, but entirely another thing to not comprehend what you, yourself have posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pojote View Post
    How much Microsoft invests in salaries? I think most GM workers would love to have a job in MS.
    I can without a doubt tell you that is in reverse to the situation. MS does not pay well compared to other top software & IT companies. It use to be the 'hook' at MS was the stock & benefits. Stock hasn't been worth its paper since early 2000 and the health benefits start to erode in 2013, when employees will be forced to pay co-pays and the like. Realize that MS's insurance was as good as it gets, where you never paid anything for health care. It will still be good, but nowhere near what it is today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pojote View Post
    Thanks for the research. I think those are really good numbers for the owners. They own a football team, and still making some (good) profit.
    Sports is a special industry, with special interests. It is much closer to entertainment than construction. You can do a movie with an unknown leading actor and pay him pennies, or you can do it with a top seller cast and pay him tons of money, getting most of the revenue (sometimes all of it). Big studios choices second option most of the times, why? Because it is less risky.
    If you want to have superstars players, that will make super audiences ratings, you have to share most of the revenues. Without these players, teams worths close to zero.
    THIS!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seek View Post
    So teams are supposed to learn from the Bills, yet the Bills suck...
    That was my thought too, haha

    As pojote stated...when I hear someone say NFL players are overpaid, one of many thoughts I have is, 'by comparison to who from an entertainment apsect?' The NFL is a form of entertainment, just like any other. Why is it okay for an actor to make millions on one film, a recording artist millions on one album...but not okay for an NFL star to make millions over a multi yr contract?

    Actors have stunt people perform their falls, flips, battles...they're protected from body injury. An NFL player risks his body in every game, possibly severe enough to end their career...although rare, their lives are at risk too...broken necks, etc.. An actors career can last a lifetime, but the same is not true for an NFL player, their career lifespan in the NFL is short by comparison to other forms of entertainment.

    Most NFL players aren't paid the millions a QB like Manning is, they're even more at risk, less protected, & truly underpaid when considering all aspects.

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    Using only the numbers that you brought from Forbes,

    We have the "Players have received 4.494 billion in expenses, or 56.06% of total revenue."

    Since the total revenue was not given, we get it from the players' share.

    Just divide that dollar amount by 56.06 and we have 1% of total revenue. (4,494,000,000.00 / 56.06 = 80,164,109.88) Multiply that by 100 and we have our number for total revenue. (80,164,109.88 x 100 = $8,016,410,988.22)

    But, since the article said that the owners' profit margin is at 13.3% we need to multiply our figure for 1% of total revenue by 13.3. (80,164,109.88 x 13.3 = $1,066,182,661.43)

    Now, that is for all 32 teams combined. (And this is where we had a problem the first time...)

    Before total revenue is even calculated for those percentages to come into play, there is that $1 billion that goes to the teams for expenses. so, we add that to our "after overhead" number, and we have ($1,066,182,661.43 + 1,000,000,000.00 = $2,066,182,661,43)

    Now, still at a total for all 32 teams, we will divide that total by 32, to determine what the average, after paying overhead, but before taxes, (Maybe, maybe not) profit for an NFL owner over the 2009 season.

    $2,066,182,661,43 / 32 = $64,568,208.17

    Now, for clarity, the difference between my equation, and yours was that $1billion that you didn't notice.(but somehow "corrected" me on)

    Because, without adding that number in, the calculation would have the average owner clearing $32,566,669.64.

    That is pretty darn close to the estimate that you suggested, of 33.4 million.

    Anyway, I apologize for my condescending remarks.

    Clearly, we just had a misunderstanding there, about a matter of $1,000,000,000.00. Worse arguments have been had over a billion dollars.


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    It does not matter how you slice or dice owners and players are making a lot of money. Where does that come from the fans and it will be the fans that take it in the wallets when all is said and done.
    I for one will not watch or even pay attention to the NFL next year if there is a work stoppage. Lockout or walkout either one.

    Neither the players or owners are thinking about the fans.

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