Cassel always had better WR's then Orton

[figcrostic]

Some people say Cassel has better numbers so he's the better QB, I think Orton has never had the talent Cassel has. Lets look at their WR's over the years

Cassel
2008: Wes Welker (still one of the best wr's in the league), Randy Moss(the year prior he had 1500 yards and 23 td's, Jabar Gaffney (ok wr)
2009: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Quinten Lawrence very comparable to Orton's cast of 2009 except Bowe is more talented then Lloyd
2010: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers (about the same as royal), Terrance Copper (better the Mckinnley). 2010 I think the slight edge goes to KC again especially considering we had Moeaki and Charles.

Orton
2008: Devin Hester, Brandon Lloyd (I know people think Brandon Lloyd is amazing but look at his career prior to Orton and after he was mediocore)
2009: Eddie Royal (Royal had one good year but hasn't done anything since), Brandon Lloyd, Kenny McKinley (don't even know who this is)
2010: Same cast as 2009 but Orton turned Brandon Lloyd into a pro-bowler with 1500 yards and 11 td's previously he had never had over 755 yards in a season.

Listen I'm not saying Orton is the best, but I have always thought he was slightly better then Cassel even when he was a donkey. Now he may prove me wrong but from what I've seen over the last couple years I see a good qb that was put in a bad situation this could very well be Rich Gannon. Look at Rich Gannon's career he was never thought of as a good player he went from team to team until the Faiders picked him up and believed in him. Orton has never had anyone believe in him and I think depending on how the next couple games go he could and should be our starter. If he sucks I will be right along with the other haters but until then I like what I see.

[chief31]

Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why

A.) That is not true. Not even close.

B.) Just like Orton, Cassel had a rough start to the season, because of a bad situation.

[Chiefster]

Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why

A.) That is not true. Not even close.

B.) Just like Orton, Cassel had a rough start to the season, because of a bad situation.

This!

I have stated on numerous occasions that I would like to see Orton compete with Cassel for the starting job.

[chief31]

Cassel
2008: Wes Welker (still one of the best wr's in the league), Randy Moss(the year prior he had 1500 yards and 23 td's, Jabar Gaffney (ok wr)
2009: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Quinten Lawrence very comparable to Orton's cast of 2009 except Bowe is more talented then Lloyd
2010: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers (about the same as royal), Terrance Copper (better the Mckinnley). 2010 I think the slight edge goes to KC again especially considering we had Moeaki and Charles.

Orton
2008: Devin Hester, Brandon Lloyd (I know people think Brandon Lloyd is amazing but look at his career prior to Orton and after he was mediocore)
2009: Eddie Royal (Royal had one good year but hasn't done anything since), Brandon Lloyd, Kenny McKinley (don't even know who this is)
2010: Same cast as 2009 but Orton turned Brandon Lloyd into a pro-bowler with 1500 yards and 11 td's previously he had never had over 755 yards in a season.

2008, granted.
2009, no.
2010, no.

Lloyd - 9 Games; 42 Catches; 554 Yards, 4 TDs
Bowe - 9 Games; 46 Catches; 566 Yards, 0 TDs

And that is with a new offense, a sophmore QB (Most games) and the worst offense in The NFL.

Brandon Lloyd is pretty good. As strong as any case for Orton making Lloyd good, the reverse case, of Lloyd making Orton good is just as strong. And a pretty strong case for Lloyd, against Bowe, could be made too.

How did Orton look before he teamed up with Lloyd?

Who made who?

Chris Chambers, 2009 - 36 Catches, 608 Yards; 4 TDs ... 2010- 22 Catches; 213 Yards; 1 TD.

Eddie Royal, 2009 - 37 Catches; 345 Yards; 0 TDs ... 2010 - 59 Catches, 627 Yards, 3 TDs

And you forgot 2009/10 Jabar Gaffney playing for The Broncos....

2009 - 54 Catches; 732 Yards; 2 TDs ... 2010 - 65 Catches; 875 Yards; 2 TDs

That is a pretty big omission.

And, just to show what kind of talent Gaffney is, he has 58 Catches; 842 Yards; and 4 TDs this season, with The Redskins.

I think that, if you place Gaffney up against Chambers for 2009, and 2010, and then put Royal against Quentin Lawrence, and Terrance Copper, you will probably be forced to come the conclusion that Orton had the better WRs in both of those years.

[2010chiefs]

Like he said PRO Cassel! I'm Pro Chiefs that's why I say Cassel stinks. Orton should start if he wins the next two games. Cassel has had plenty of chances this year and it made me sick to watch him almost every game this year. Same team and Orton lit it up.

[chief31]

Like he said PRO Cassel! I'm Pro Chiefs that's why I say Cassel stinks. Orton should start if he wins the next two games. Cassel has had plenty of chances this year and it made me sick to watch him almost every game this year. Same team and Orton lit it up.

I am just about Matt Cassel's only defender, and that does not mean that I think he is better than Orton.

Very tough call for me.

As for being pro-Chiefs, while so openly anti-Chief (Cassel) no need to try and rationalize that to me.

I have seen Chiefs players who, I have thought were holding the team back.

Matt Cassel is not of them.

And, while Orton had a good game against a great team, he did not "light it up".

[TopekaRoy]

I am just about Matt Cassel's only defender, and that does not mean that I think he is better than Orton.

Very tough call for me.

As for being pro-Chiefs, while so openly anti-Chief (Cassel) no need to try and rationalize that to me.

I have seen Chiefs players who, I have thought were holding the team back.

Matt Cassel is not of them.

And, while Orton had a good game against a great team, he did not "light it up".

I would also say "lit it up" is a bit of a stretch, but he did play very well.

And just for the record, I defended Cassel right up until he got injured and I posted elsewhere a comparison, that Orton and Cassel are very much the same QB. But there were a few things about Sunday's game that really impressed me.

1) It looked like Orton is much better with Play action passes. He did a good job of disguising the play by "selling" the hand off until the very last instant giving him that extra 1/2 second or so to make the pass before the defense could react. In this way he was able to complete 23 of 31 passes (74%) for a passer rating of 104.1 which is pretty hard to do without a TD pass or a completion of over 39 yards.

2) He was very quick to pick up the blitz and get the ball out to the open man, which is part of the reason why his completion percentage was so high, and a big part of why he was never sacked. I give full credit to the oline for often picking up the extra rusher and giving Orton extra time to throw as well. But it seems like whenever Cassel was blitzed, he would panic and dump the ball off at the line of scrimmage for no gain, or throw the ball away.

3) And I don't remember when I have ever seen this before. Orton completed a pass to every eligible receiver on the team that played in the game. 23 completions scattered around to 10 different players. How do you defend against that?

If Cassel was healthy could he have done all that? maybe, but I'm not so sure. And Orton did all this in his first game with this offense. Let's suppose with more practice his timing with the receivers gets better. Suppose with Charles running the ball, the passing game gets better. Suppose we improve the offensive line next year, and suppose Baldwin, who hasn't even played a full season yet, improves like Bowe eventually did. How high is Orton's ceiling under those circumstances?

Wouldn't you like to find out?

[figcrostic]

What about Jamaal Charles? What RB did Orton have for the defense to get the focus off of the passing game?

Don't forget about Moeaki

[figcrostic]

2008, granted.
2009, no.
2010, no.

Lloyd - 9 Games; 42 Catches; 554 Yards, 4 TDs
Bowe - 9 Games; 46 Catches; 566 Yards, 0 TDs

And that is with a new offense, a sophmore QB (Most games) and the worst offense in The NFL.

Brandon Lloyd is pretty good. As strong as any case for Orton making Lloyd good, the reverse case, of Lloyd making Orton good is just as strong. And a pretty strong case for Lloyd, against Bowe, could be made too.

How did Orton look before he teamed up with Lloyd?

Who made who?

Chris Chambers, 2009 - 36 Catches, 608 Yards; 4 TDs ... 2010- 22 Catches; 213 Yards; 1 TD.

Eddie Royal, 2009 - 37 Catches; 345 Yards; 0 TDs ... 2010 - 59 Catches, 627 Yards, 3 TDs

And you forgot 2009/10 Jabar Gaffney playing for The Broncos....

2009 - 54 Catches; 732 Yards; 2 TDs ... 2010 - 65 Catches; 875 Yards; 2 TDs

That is a pretty big omission.

And, just to show what kind of talent Gaffney is, he has 58 Catches; 842 Yards; and 4 TDs this season, with The Redskins.

I think that, if you place Gaffney up against Chambers for 2009, and 2010, and then put Royal against Quentin Lawrence, and Terrance Copper, you will probably be forced to come the conclusion that Orton had the better WRs in both of those years.

I'm starting to think you just enjoy to argue, I seem to remember us both liking Cassel for what he is but agreeing he was around average and thinking Orton was a little better. No?

[AkChief49]

I would also say "lit it up" is a bit of a stretch, but he did play very well.

And just for the record, I defended Cassel right up until he got injured and I posted elsewhere a comparison, that Orton and Cassel are very much the same QB. But there were a few things about Sunday's game that really impressed me.

1) It looked like Orton is much better with Play action passes. He did a good job of disguising the play by "selling" the hand off until the very last instant giving him that extra 1/2 second or so to make the pass before the defense could react. In this way he was able to complete 23 of 31 passes (74%) for a passer rating of 104.1 which is pretty hard to do without a TD pass or a completion of over 39 yards.

2) He was very quick to pick up the blitz and get the ball out to the open man, which is part of the reason why his completion percentage was so high, and a big part of why he was never sacked. I give full credit to the oline for often picking up the extra rusher and giving Orton extra time to throw as well. But it seems like whenever Cassel was blitzed, he would panick and dump the ball off at the line of scrimmage for no gain, or throw the ball away.

3) And I don't remember when I have ever seen this before. Orton completed a pass to every eligible receiver on the team that played in the game. 23 completions scattered around to 10 different players. How do you defend against that?

If Cassel was healthy could he have done all that? maybe, but I'm not so sure. And Orton did all this in his first game with this offense. Let's suppose with more practice his timing with the receivers gets better. Suppose with Charles running the ball, the passing game gets better. Suppose we improve the offensive line next year, and suppose Baldwin, who hasn;t even played a full season yet, improves like Bowe eventually did. How high is Orton's ceiling under those circumstances?

Wouldn't you like to find out?

I just got through watching the game again and had this same thought. I also watched our pre-season game with GB again, Cassel does a nice job at the play action but I have to agree Orton looked better at selling it.

The SD game at Arrowhead-Cassel looked poised in the pocket, had time etc. is it the blocking? Because Orton looked very poised in the pocket.

Was it that Orton went against one of the worst pass defenses? The Patriots are as bad or worse against the pass........ oh wait, Palko- never mind.

Hanging on to the ball as long as we did(36+ min.) had a whole bunch to do with it. Sustained drives.
I'm glad Orton is here. More competition. I think Chiefster said it: Let 'em battle it out, old school.

[ctchiefsfan]

Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why

You are such a dipstick.

There are no die-hard Cassel people here. There are only Chiefs fans.

The only thing anyone has said about Orton is "Let's see what he does against Oakland and Denver."

If he plays against those two teams like he did against Green Bay the only thing you will hear around here is "Matt Who?"

But you don't toss a QB that led you to the playoffs and made the pro bowl because some new guy has 1 good game.