Lets be real

[figcrostic]

Under a good line with a good run game Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton would be both good qb's....ELite? No, but good. I personally think Kyle Orton is the better passer I think he makes quicker decisions, he scans the field better, he throws a more accurate deep ball, he spreads the ball better, and just fundamentally throws the better ball. Matt Cassel is a tough SOB and I have always said that, he played tight end and is a better runner and everyone is right Cassel would have knocked that LB over and got that first down. The real questions is what direction do we want to go in. Modern teams that win superbowls have great qb's, Manning brothers (Eli may not be great but he's definetly good) , Rodgers, Brady, Roethlisberger etc. With the rules of protecting the WR's and qb it just seems like you need a great qb to win but doesn't necessarily make it 100%. No matter what I hope we can all agree that we need help on our O-line the Raiders game was appalling. Two blocked FG's that's just embarrassing. Not trying to bum anyone out on Christmas I think we looked so good against GB it just got everyones hopes up lets be honest we are a team that is on the brink of being good we just haven't quite found our identity but I really think next year we will be a playoff team especially when our injured players comeback.

[figcrostic]

And a far worse chance than when he was playing more like our QBs.

The point is that concentrating on your passing attack, over defense and running game, is not the pure success that we seem to think it is.

Tom Brady won three Super Bowls while putting forward some very mediocre statistics.

likewise, ....

59.9%; 3,301 Yards; 17 TDs; 15 INTs; 80.1 QB Rating
62.7%; 2,385 Yards; 17 TDs; 9 INTs; 98.6 QB Rating

Those are the two seasons that found Ben Roethlisberger winning The Super Bowl, and....

65.3%; 3,154 Yards; 32 TDs; 11 INTs; 104.1 QB Rating
66.6%; 4,328 Yards; 26 TDs; 12 INTs; 100.5 QB Rating

These two season, when Big Ben put up the "elite QB" statistics, he has not.

Ben and Brady are the only two QBs in the game, right now, who have won multiple Super Bowls, and they both did it while putting fourth pedestrian passing statistics, and have been unable to do it, while having "elite QB" years.

There is so much more to football than leading the league in passing stats.

Tom Brady hasn't won a superbowl because of the Vinateri curse. They won 3 with Vinateri, he left went to Indy and they won one as well. The Pats haven't won a superbowl since.

[ctchiefsfan]

Good stuff chief31! I'm not much of a "stat watcher" but those numbers seem to suggest what I have always believed....great passers DON'T win SuperBowls.....great defenses and O-Lines DO win SuperBowls.

Witness the Staubach/Bradshaw SuperBowls.

Sometimes it all comes down to the QB and his arm. But the day in day out business of winning 10, 11, 12 or 13 games per year ultimately relies on the defense and the O-Line.

[figcrostic]

Good stuff chief31! I'm not much of a "stat watcher" but those numbers seem to suggest what I have always believed....great passers DON'T win SuperBowls.....great defenses and O-Lines DO win SuperBowls.

Witness the Staubach/Bradshaw SuperBowls.

Sometimes it all comes down to the QB and his arm. But the day in day out business of winning 10, 11, 12 or 13 games per year ultimately relies on the defense and the O-Line.

Last 5 superbowl winning QB's regular season stats

2010 Aaron Rodgers 65.7% 3,922 yards 28td's 11int
2009 Drew Brees 70.6% 4,388 yards 34td's 11 int
2008 Ben Roethlisberger 59.9% 3,301 yards 17td's 15int
2007 Eli Manning 56.1 3,336 23 20
2006 Peyton Manning 65.0% 4,397 yards 31td's 9int

So basically only 2 out of 5 teams had qb's that put up pedestrian numbers but they also had amazing defenses so I guess pedestrian numbers can win the Superbowl with amazing defenses but it's more then likely elite qb numbers will win it. So we either need to get our defense ridulous and protect our qb well or get the next Peyton Manning.

[chief31]

Last 5 superbowl winning QB's regular season stats

2010 Aaron Rodgers 65.7% 3,922 yards 28td's 11int
2009 Drew Brees 70.6% 4,388 yards 34td's 11 int
2008 Ben Roethlisberger 59.9% 3,301 yards 17td's 15int
2007 Eli Manning 56.1 3,336 23 20
2006 Peyton Manning 65.0% 4,397 yards 31td's 9int

So basically only 2 out of 5 teams had qb's that put up pedestrian numbers but they also had amazing defenses so I guess pedestrian numbers can win the Superbowl with amazing defenses but it's more then likely elite qb numbers will win it. So we either need to get our defense ridulous and protect our qb well or get the next Peyton Manning.

Sure, a slight edge goes to the passing offenses if you stop at five years.

Try a little bit further back, and the message is far different.

For six straight years prior to that, you get the numbers I already listed for Big Ben and Tom Brady, adding in Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

And, as stated, even of those five you listed, two were not all-pass teams.

I agree that The NFL seems to be working the rules to discourage defense and running offense in favor of passing.

But I think it will take a few more years to determine if it is the new rule, that pass-happy is the answer.

[okikcfan]

There are 21 other starters between the offense, and the defense.

Those guys have a whole lot more to do with the team's success than what Cassel-haters like to admit.

Well, they don't mind admitting it when Kyle Orton can't get a win vs. The Raiders.

Ah, I will be the first to admit that our O line is a big part of the problem. There is no argument there. I am not saying that Cassel or Orton should be our long term QB. I just want who I feel is the best one. Not that one is a boat load better than the other. Right now Orton is our QB, like it or not. I'm not looking long term on either of them just for the simple fact that we have no for sure idea who our coach next year will be. If we do not win against Tebow as we should have beat the Faiders, I do not feel Crennel will be our HC, now that's just me. Our team is much better than what they appear. I just have this gut feeling there will be a shakeup.

[figcrostic]

Sure, a slight edge goes to the passing offenses if you stop at five years.

Try a little bit further back, and the message is far different.

For six straight years prior to that, you get the numbers I already listed for Big Ben and Tom Brady, adding in Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

And, as stated, even of those five you listed, two were not all-pass teams.

I agree that The NFL seems to be working the rules to discourage defense and running offense in favor of passing.

But I think it will take a few more years to determine if it is the new rule, that pass-happy is the answer.

I think your right in that it's not there yet but it will be out of the 4 teams that have a lock on the playoffs 2 have elite qb's and two have elite defenses, but I think it's getting more and more pass friendly.

[pojote]

But you still need a capable quarterback, quarterbacks that can play tough teams and win. Cassel hasn't proven that because he cant. Look at the past super bowl winners in the last 10 years, all of them had capable quarterbacks that played well in the playoffs as well as in the regular season against the good teams MAYBE with the exception of brad johnson. Some like to brin up ben rothlesburger, how many super bowls did the steelers win before big ben came? With the exception of the super bowl, mainly because pitt pounded the ball against seattle that game, he played absolutely brilliant in the playoffs of 05 not to mention the game winning drive in the super bowl against Arizona in 2009 with 2 minutes left to go.

I dont even want to bring up cassel's stats again, but they have been absolutely atrocious in 09,10 and 11 against good teams. And these arent misinformed stats that dont show the whole truth. They do, he sucks against good teams. Since everyone wants to talk about Cassel's 2010 year, look at San Diego, Raiders, Baltimore, indy the list goes on and on

I agree with you, but Orton can't either. The thing is, how can we get a QB that really can win games by himself. By draft? Not in 2012, I don't see how. By trade? I don't think Brees, Rodgers, Brady are in the market right now.

[okikcfan]

As we have seen in the past picking a QB in the first round is not always a sure thing. Getting to the play offs is one thing but getting beyond that is a whole other ball game. We need a good QB and neither Matt Cassel or Kyle Orton will be the one's to get us there. Bowe or Carr has not been resigned, Cassel or Orton could be traded, Crennel may or my NOT be our HC next year. The future is uncertain in Chiefs Land and bickering over Cassel and Orton is endless. It's kinda like turning on ESPN and hearing nothing but Tebow all freaking day long. In the long run, what we feel or say here in the ChiefsCrowd means nothing to Hunt or Pioli. Just sayin

[chief31]

But you still need a capable quarterback, quarterbacks that can play tough teams and win. Cassel hasn't proven that because he cant. Look at the past super bowl winners in the last 10 years, all of them had capable quarterbacks that played well in the playoffs as well as in the regular season against the good teams MAYBE with the exception of brad johnson. Some like to brin up ben rothlesburger, how many super bowls did the steelers win before big ben came? With the exception of the super bowl, mainly because pitt pounded the ball against seattle that game, he played absolutely brilliant in the playoffs of 05 not to mention the game winning drive in the super bowl against Arizona in 2009 with 2 minutes left to go.

I dont even want to bring up cassel's stats again, but they have been absolutely atrocious in 09,10 and 11 against good teams. And these arent misinformed stats that dont show the whole truth. They do, he sucks against good teams. Since everyone wants to talk about Cassel's 2010 year, look at San Diego, Raiders, Baltimore, indy the list goes on and on

Bad football teams do poorly against the best football teams, far more often than not.

The O-line has played poorly against the better defenses, as has the rest of our poor offense, game-planning included, has too.

That is what a good defense does to opposing offense.

And, when you are a rebuilding team, as this one has been since Cassel got here, you improve over time, and learn to beat good teams/defenses.

This was to be the year when our offense would reach the point of being expected to stand up to the better teams, and beome their better, just as it was for our defense.

But, as I have stated, this offense was "The Jamaal Charles show" and the very design of the offense lost it's wheels when JC went down.

(Bad idea to design this offense on the running game, without recognizing that our running game was the result of one individual's talent, as opposed to the team beaing able to run the ball well.)

[Seek]

realistically, I have never seen Cassel hit a receiver deep down the field without that receiver having to adjust. Orton is a much more accurate thrower than Cassel and that is glaringly obvious to me.

The problem is that Orton is Orton. The interception in the end zone is the type of play that keeps Orton off the list of great qbs. He is highly inconsistent in game performance. One game he is lights out, the next he looks like Cassel.

Realistically, people who want that Elite QB, well everyone is looking for that guy and you will either have to spend a ton, for the HOPES that you find that guy or get lucky finding one in a player like Stanzi.

Given the situation the Chiefs are in, Realistically, they will have to build around what they have and hope that Stanzi is that type of guy, or draft another QB in the future and hope he is that next Tom Brady. I don't see the Chiefs trading away their entire draft and future draft to move up for a Luck or RG3 and HOPE they are that next Elite QB.