The end all, be all Cassel/orton debate thread....

[KCraised]

There are alot of little flare ups on this forums about the cassel haters and Orton haters. Both players have strengths and weaknesses. Lets hear peoples voices about a pro and con about both players. Let's see where it goes and let's respect the other and keep it civil! Bottom line, we are all Chiefs fans or we wouldn't hopefully be on this forum.....God help us.

Cassel pro: think he scrambles better than Orton
Cassel con: seems to panic under the first sign of pressure

Orton pro: Better downfield accuracy
Orton con: His inexperience with this Organization, compared to Cassel

Just getting the ball rolling. Lets see what happens and where it goes....

[pojote]

This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

Best analysis to this subject!!!

[70 chiefsfan70]

This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

Well said.

I like the idea of signing Orton and letting him compete with Cassel, along with a first or second round draft pick.

Obviously Orton is not signed and may not sign. Even if he does sign I don't see him being TQBOTF.

Orton seems to be the better QB for the Chiefs because he is a deep threat and would also help the run game. And as everyone has seen he makes the OL look much better.

If we do draft a QBOTF we would be in a good position to trade Cassel or Orton (if we sign him) for what ever need we still have come preseason.

[Jrudi]

I've been torn on this topic as well....

At first I wanted to target RG3 in the Draft...but now Barkely is returning to USC, which will more than likely not allow us to be in a position to draft a QB worthy of a 1st round pick.

Orton's Pros:
- Gunslinger mentality. isn't affraid to wing it, but can get you into trouble, and equate to turnovers.

- Has nothing to loose.. the guy has never had an organization back him, so he literally has nothing to loose. But sometimes the guys with nothing to loose, never replicate the production they did when they were trying to prove something.

Cons:
- Just not a leader... I haven't seen enough from this guy to show me that he possesses that "it" factor that I think QB's need to have.
- Journeyman... Not familiar with the KC system, or locker room. Has never been looked at as a franchise guy, so has had to move around.

To tell you the truth, all that I have listed about Orton, could be considered Con's.

So I looked at Cassel:

Pros:
- Dude is a leader... As mentioned before, and this was the main reason I liked the guy. He is fiery, and even if he is out, he is involved in the game. Even though we haven't seen him carry the load on many 4th QTR drives, there is no doubt in my mind that he could get this team motivated to pull out a win when it mattered.

- Familiarity with WR's, The System, and "The Chiefs Way". Familiarity and Consistency go a long way in the NFL, and I think this is beneficial that he knows his way around the system and the locker room.

Cons:
- Happy Feet... Not sure what happened here, last year he avoided sacks by moving up in the pocket, and throwing balls away instead of taking a sack. Minimized turnovers, and just wasn't afraid to get rid of the ball when he felt pressure. Not so much this year, and I think Haley had some sort of affect on this area of his game (fear maybe??).

- Take's too much time... This year it seems he had fallen back into taking to much time to make his decisions. Multiple times I would see him start to throw, stop, turn to another receiver, and then panic and take a sack. Last year, he had a quicker release, and it drastically improved his turnover ratio's and sack ratio's.

The Question:
- I look at what he did in New England, and what he did last year (With Wiess). I hear the talk about Haley being the Micro-manager, and how the play calling system this year was just completely a mess. With that information it made me wonder if Haley didn't have a negative affect on Cassel's play, I get the idea that Haley was breathing down his neck at all times, and not giving him clear to the point game plans, not giving him the proper materials to prepare with, and I think to myself, I wonder what he could do without him??? After seeing how our offense has moved the ball without him there (regardless of the fact that it was Orton under center) I hear the positive feedback from Muir about how much smoother things are going and I think to myself, I might want to see him get another chance next year with an OC similar to Weiss, and see if he can re-produce the 2010 seasons play again. Draft a QB in rounds 2-3 to succeed him if he doesn't replicate it. But I', thinking one more shot.

So my proposal (even after I wanted to Draft a QB in round 1)

I would like to see what Cassel can do with a new HC, and a good OC. I think he can lead this team with the proper pieces in place above him and a clear mission statement given to him. I also think it will be harder to trade Cassel (due to his contract, and not being able to trade players for picks) So I look to slap a 2nd or 3rd round tender on Orton in hopes that he signs elsewhere, and we gain compensation. With the compensation we gain from Orton, I think we draft a QB in rounds 2-3 (Lets say Tannehill) for the future and allow Stanzi and the draft choice to compete for the spot to succeed Cassel if he does not work out.

If Stanzi still doesn't seem like he is going to work out byt he beginning of next season, we cut ties after training camp, and sign a veteran to backup Cassel in case of injury, and allow the draft choice to learn.

Thoughts??

[KCraised]

Man, this is some of the best in depth analysis i've seen on this debate. Alot of great information and food for thought. Some football saavy people on here, for sure

[TopekaRoy]

Man, this is some of the best in depth analysis i've seen on this debate. Alot of great information and food for thought. Some football saavy people on here, for sure

Agreed. Excellent thread.

I've been torn on this topic as well....

Great post and I just wnat to comment on a small part of it. ...

So I looked at Cassel:
...
Cons:
- Happy Feet... Not sure what happened here, last year he avoided sacks by moving up in the pocket, and throwing balls away instead of taking a sack. Minimized turnovers, and just wasn't afraid to get rid of the ball when he felt pressure. Not so much this year, and I think Haley had some sort of affect on this area of his game (fear maybe??).

- Take's too much time... This year it seems he had fallen back into taking to much time to make his decisions. Multiple times I would see him start to throw, stop, turn to another receiver, and then panic and take a sack. Last year, he had a quicker release, and it drastically improved his turnover ratio's and sack ratio's.

I wonder how much of an effect losing Jamaal Charles has had in this regard. Last year, Cassel knew that if the pass wasn't there, he could just throw the ball away and count on Charles to routinely get 6 or 7 yards on the next play leaving a short 3rd down conversion. Without that strong running game I think Matt felt like he had to make a play and was under more pressure to complete a pass. He tried to wait longer for a receiver to get open and when it didn't happen fast enough he would take a sack or try to tuck the ball and run.

So why isn't this happening with Orton? Many are saying the play calling is different, but I think there is another reason. Kyle makes faster reads and gets the ball out to receivers more quickly. His high completion rate has forced the defense to respect the pass and as a result the Chiefs have been running the ball better - for 139 yds vs Green bay and 135 yds vs. Oakland.

Where Cassel relied on the run game to soften up pass coverage, Orton has been using the passing game to soften up run coverage.

Conclusion? With a more limited run game, this year, Orton is the better QB for this team right now, but with Charles back, Cassel may return to his 2010 form and be just as effective in next year's offense as Orton would be.

Maybe.

Just thinking out loud ...

on virtual paper ...

[okikcfan]

Wow, Great thread gentlemen! Very well done!

[okikcfan]

Bad news folks, Jackie Battle is apparently in a walking boot, according to interim head coach Romeo Crennel, per the bleacher report.

[Jrudi]

Agree with the idea of the run game having an effect on Cassel's play as well.

The way I saw it after Cassel got injured was that our biggest need on this team was talent at the QB position. I wanted to draft a qb in round 1, and look to improve the O-line in rounds 2-5 and through FA.

Since then, Barkely has returned to school and I retracted my idea, because I didn't feel we would be in a position to take a QB worthy of a 1st round pick, that would be better than Cassel would be in the same situation.

So with the situation that we are now in, I like the idea of giving Cassel 1 more year (which I think he only has 1-2 years left on his contract) to work with Zorn (the way he wants to work with him, no Haley) a good OC, and a better running game.

I think it would be more beneficial to this team as it is right now, to offer him that chance, and improve the O-line, and depth at other positions.

I think that consistency will be good for this team, and if we were to reach for a QB like Landry Jones, it will set us back another couple of years, and cause us to re-focus on competing in 2-3 years rather than next year (which Cassel should allow us to do).

[AkChief49]

Orton can see the field better - he spreads the ball out, he looks off recievers, and is more accurate. Just a better skilled player. Cassel has a lot of heart and plays balls out - but that doesn't really improve his skillset IMO. I like Cassel for the above reasons - he is a determined player. But determination will only get you so far in the NFL.

This about says it for me. I think Orton's receiver progression is better also. I've always liked Cassel's fire. With a good line he would be a pro bowler again.

This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

Nice analysis azchief, the one point in bold to me is one of his cons. The QB should be able to see the field and call audibles accordingly. Maybe Cassel has been on a short leash with Haley and has not been able to. (I do not get to see a lot of the games living up here so maybe I'm full of it)But the ability (and freedom) to read the D and adjust on the fly is what separates the Brady's and the Mannings, Brees from the rest.

The last time we were in the big show, it was with a field General.

[jap1]

This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

Great post and analysis. Only one complaint, I take offense to the surgeon analysis ... as a surgeon, I have yet to see the inside of a body look anything like they do in the books!!! If they looked like they did in the books, then I wouldnt need to operate on them!!! j/k

I get what you are trying to say though, just giving you a hard time.

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who is on the fence and feels like we could go either way.