The end all, be all Cassel/orton debate thread....

**KCraised** · 12-27-2011, 09:56 PM

There are alot of little flare ups on this forums about the cassel haters and Orton haters. Both players have strengths and weaknesses. Lets hear peoples voices about a pro and con about both players. Let's see where it goes and let's respect the other and keep it civil! Bottom line, we are all Chiefs fans or we wouldn't hopefully be on this forum.....God help us.

Cassel pro: think he scrambles better than Orton
Cassel con: seems to panic under the first sign of pressure

Orton pro: Better downfield accuracy
Orton con: His inexperience with this Organization, compared to Cassel

Just getting the ball rolling. Lets see what happens and where it goes....

**chief31** · 12-27-2011, 10:25 PM

My biggest pro for Cassel has to be the ability to get more out a situation than I would expect.

When Tom Brady went down in New England, the result was so different from what I expected. What I expected was something a whole lot closer to what The Colts have seen, without Peyton Manning this season.

And, when he came here, I gave him no chance to win ten games (even on an easy schedule) in his second year.

Then, this season, I fully expected a letdown from 2010, even before the player losses from injury. And yet, He did win four games in a row.

As for Kyle Orton......

He is the ultimate underdog in some ways.

The Bears thought he was such a horrible passer, that they could not trust him to throw the ball past ten yards.

And, though he led The Bears to the playoffs, with an 11-5 division title, they switched him out for their lone playoff game, and promptly lost at home.

Then, to go to Denver and have put up some very impressive passing statistics, only to get benched late in the year, and have the same thing happen the following season....

I think he has done his job, everywhere he has gone, and not been given an opportunity to be any team's long-term QB.

He and Matt have this one same character builder, that both have been shoved to the back of the bus a whole lot in their times in football.

I have seen both men do some extremely impressive things, in limited opportunity.

I would like to see either/both men have the chance to lead this team in 2012. I think this team is pretty close to being a serious contender. And it should be a good opportunity for whoever gets the nod.

**KCraised** · 12-27-2011, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the great post, Chief31.
Very good points

**matthewschiefs** · 12-27-2011, 10:46 PM

I live in bear country so I got to see Orton when he was on the Bears. He wasn't bad. But the Bears offense is not going to scare anyone. They are a team that is always led by there defense. Orton was decent while with the bears. He was decent with the donkeys. I recall a butt whipin he put on us a year ago. I never heard any talk of him being a problem in the locker room when he was on the bears. And According to Mich Holtus on kcchiefs.com he is well liked in our locker room. I think he could be a good leader for this team.

Matt Cassel has one thing that I have yet to see from orton. A fire in him. We have seen him all fired up after he gets a first down. I like that in him. I think that Cassel is a guy that needs a coach on his butt for him to play his best. We saw it last year. Haley would get on Cassel about something and that's when Cassel played better. We saw it in a game this year. When they got into it on the sideline Cassel went out and threw 3td passes. I think Cassel needs that. I hope that we get a OC or a QB coach that is going to do that if we are going to stick with Cassel.

I am fine with either Orton or cassel at Qb as long as we get them some O line help I think that either one could be a solid leader and a solid qb. You don't have to have a Great elite QB to win it all if you have a great running game like we could with Charles, Battle, Mccluster and a good to great defense. I think we could win a superbowl with either as long as we fill in the other remaining holes on this team.

**jap1** · 12-27-2011, 11:11 PM

Cassel

Pros:

1. More mobility, "guts" and "fight" (he seems to always fight for an extra yard or two when he runs)
2. More leadership (he initiated the team workouts this summer, invited Baldwin to live with him until he got his own place)
3. Better timing with our WRs, and more accurate on short routes (most likely a result of familiarity)
4. Fire and motivation - he seems to get the O excited when he starts making big plays.
5. Very conservative with passes.

Cons:
1. Happy feet
2. Seems to hold onto the ball too long (although without watching game tape it is difficult to say whether people are actually open)

Orton

Pros:
1. Better deep ball
2. better pocket presence
3. Gets rid of the ball instead of taking a sack

Cons:
1. Not very mobile outside the pocket
2. Never seemed like a well respected team leader (could be because he has never been considered the long term answer)
3. Poor timing with our WRs (could be a result of inexperience on our team)

Overall, I think they are probably pretty equal. I agree with other posted that if either one will be fine IF we fill in the OL and other holes.

That having been said, I am AGAINST a QB competition. Pick one and stick with him. Having a clear #1 means the #1 QB will get closer to 60% of the snaps. If you have a competition, that means the two guys are going to be splitting reps probably 40% each, with the 3rd stringer (Stanzi) getting 20%, if not less.

A competition means the chemistry between QB and WR wont be as strong. Also, the person chosen as the number one would probably be constantly looking over his/her shoulder. People need motivation, but I dont think fear is a good motivator.

I cant remember the last team that had a QB competition in the offseason that ended up going to the playoffs. The offense wont have time to gel if you dont make a decision early and stick to it.

However the front office decides, I might grumble and complain a little bit, but in the end I will still be screaming for the Chiefs to win. I just hope if we ditch one of the other, we can get something for him, either through trade or compensatory picks.

Orton has been in too many QB competitions and probably would be annoyed to have to do it again.

**tornadospotter** · 12-27-2011, 11:31 PM

I guess I must disagree with what I have read so far. I also think we need a true QB competition thru a full off season and training camp. I will be honest, I have not seen anything from Cassel that really inspires me to believe in him. Being a leader means also getting it done on the field of play. The thing that stands out the most to me, is the knocked down passes at the line of scrimmage, the passes thrown in a hard to catch for the reciever, the sense of that he plays scared or rushed to force a play, not make a play. Maybe it is the change at head coach, i do not know. But I say lets have two NFL experience QB compete for the starting position and go from there.

**KCraised** · 12-27-2011, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by matthewschiefs

I live in bear country so I got to see Orton when he was on the Bears. He wasn't bad. But the Bears offense is not going to scare anyone. They are a team that is always led by there defense. Orton was decent while with the bears. He was decent with the donkeys. I recall a butt whipin he put on us a year ago. I never heard any talk of him being a problem in the locker room when he was on the bears. And According to Mich Holtus on kcchiefs.com he is well liked in our locker room. I think he could be a good leader for this team.

Matt Cassel has one thing that I have yet to see from orton. A fire in him. We have seen him all fired up after he gets a first down. I like that in him. I think that Cassel is a guy that needs a coach on his butt for him to play his best. We saw it last year. Haley would get on Cassel about something and that's when Cassel played better. We saw it in a game this year. When they got into it on the sideline Cassel went out and threw 3td passes. I think Cassel needs that. I hope that we get a OC or a QB coach that is going to do that if we are going to stick with Cassel.

I am fine with either Orton or cassel at Qb as long as we get them some O line help I think that either one could be a solid leader and a solid qb. You don't have to have a Great elite QB to win it all if you have a great running game like we could with Charles, Battle, Mccluster and a good to great defense. I think we could win a superbowl with either as long as we fill in the other remaining holes on this team.

I'm starting to agree with the mindset of having just an efficient QB. Like I said, Cassel would've been the difference in winning that Pittsburgh game so I definitely have confidence in his ability to run an offense effectively. When the defense is good, it sure allows a buffer for a mistake or 2 on offense. I'm seeing people point out his fire. I like emotion in the positive times and Cassel doing the 1st down signal gets us all into it. Orton has a calm demeanor. Don't know which I prefer on that.

**KCraised** · 12-27-2011, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by tornadospotter

I guess I must disagree with what I have read so far. I also think we need a true QB competition thru a full off season and training camp. I will be honest, I have not seen anything from Cassel that really inspires me to believe in him. Being a leader means also getting it done on the field of play. The thing that stands out the most to me, is the knocked down passes at the line of scrimmage, the passes thrown in a hard to catch for the reciever, the sense of that he plays scared or rushed to force a play, not make a play. Maybe it is the change at head coach, i do not know. But I say lets have two NFL experience QB compete for the starting position and go from there.

I lean for the competition. But everybody has some damned good points and angles on things!

**Bike** · 12-27-2011, 11:55 PM

It is obvious to me that Orton is the better skilled player at qb than Cassel. And if Orton is considered "average" at this position, whats that make Cassel? Below average? I got a feeling that Pioli will find a way to cut ties with Cassel this off season.

**KCraised** · 12-28-2011, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Bike

It is obvious to me that Orton is the better skilled player at qb than Cassel. And if Orton is considered "average" at this position, whats that make Cassel? Below average? I got a feeling that Pioli will find a way to cut ties with Cassel this off season.

What are some of the things that set both qbs apart, in your opinion? Good and bad?