Just How Bad Cassel Really Is

[Ryfo18]

If you've found yourself to be a Cassel apologist, please read this. If you still are aft you read it, there is no hope for you:

Chiefs The Declaration Of Independence, MO - The People vs. Matthew Gus Brennan Cassel - ChiefsPlanet

[ctchiefsfan]

Sure, we all root for the same team. That definitely doesn't mean we have to all agree on which direction the team should head in terms of personnel.

But aren't the personnel discussions pretty much over for now? At least at the "high profile" positions. Seems like time to get behind the team to me.

[doobs_05]

I say just keep "discussing" it until the season starts and we see how cassel plays.

[chief31]

So you're willing to go on the record and say that the head coach that was 4-12 calling plays deserves the credit after a brilliant playcaller in Charlie Weis comes in and the team all the sudden jumps to 10-6?

Weis then leaves and the team starts 0-3 in 2011. Matt Cassel is 54-82 for 428 yards and a 3/5 TD/INT ratio through those first 3 games, after throwing 7 total INTs through 16 games in 2010.

What exactly did Todd Haley do that had a bigger impact than Weis or Crennel in 2010? Seriously? The biggest impact he had was running Charlie Weis out of town.

I am willing to deal in reality, as opposed to making excuses for success.

He was the HC, while Crennel and Weiss were merely coordinators.

What exactly did he do? No need for BS speculation here. He coached the team. Any guess as to how much involvement he had with play-calling is just one's own imagination.

But, to share a bit of imagination..... Weiss left after that one season, suggesting that he was not thrilled with some interference in running the offense. Pretty easy to make a BS statement that Haley was far more involved with the offense than what you want to give the guy credit for.

And the following season started out at 0-3.... With a shortened off-season, ridiculous injuries, and they followed that up with four straight wins, even without the central cog of the offense (JC).

But the dream world you are presenting is still just a total failure in the face of the written-in-stone fact that Todd Haley led this team from 2-12 to 10-6 division chaps in two years.

You can spin away from it all you want. But that stone cold fact will be right here waiting for when you are done denying reality.

[chiefnut]

haley already is in conflict w/big ben......what a shock!!!

[Ryfo18]

I am willing to deal in reality, as opposed to making excuses for success.

He was the HC, while Crennel and Weiss were merely coordinators.

What exactly did he do? No need for BS speculation here. He coached the team. Any guess as to how much involvement he had with play-calling is just one's own imagination.

But, to share a bit of imagination..... Weiss left after that one season, suggesting that he was not thrilled with some interference in running the offense. Pretty easy to make a BS statement that Haley was far more involved with the offense than what you want to give the guy credit for.

And the following season started out at 0-3.... With a shortened off-season, ridiculous injuries, and they followed that up with four straight wins, even without the central cog of the offense (JC).

But the dream world you are presenting is still just a total failure in the face of the written-in-stone fact that Todd Haley led this team from 2-12 to 10-6 division chaps in two years.

You can spin away from it all you want. But that stone cold fact will be right here waiting for when you are done denying reality.

I'm the one denying reality? You make it sound like it wasn't 100% obvious that Charlie Weis called the plays all year. Let me spell it out for you again:

1.) Todd Haley comes to coach the team in 2009. He calls the plays and the team goes 4-12.
2.) Charlie Weis is named as the offensive coordinator in 2010, the team goes 10-6 and gets a wild card berth. There was no secret who was calling the plays, as you make it out to seem like.

ESPN's AFC West Insider Bill Williamson seems to agree here by stating:

"How much Weis had to do with the Chiefs' success is open to conjecture, but players said he contributed greatly to the improvement that took Kansas City to a 10-6 record. Running back Jamaal Charles, wide receiver Dwayne Bowe and Cassel made the Pro Bowl after the Chiefs won their first AFC West title since 2003.

Cassel's improvement was dramatic; he had 16 TD passes and 16 interceptions when Haley was calling plays, but under Weis -- until the last two games -- he played nearly mistake-free." (Source: Bill Muir to be Kansas City Chiefs' new O-coordinator - ESPN)

3.) We can again look to Haley's playcalling record when he stripped Weis of playcalling duties in the wildcard game against the Ravens (source: Report: Haley stripped play-calling duties from Weis | ProFootballTalk). The Chiefs went into halftime down 10-7. They failed to score a point in the second half.

4.) Todd Haley gets fired midway before the 2011 season even finishes.



You continue to speak that I'm not "dealing in reality" and living in a "dream world", when it's 100% obvious that the critical link between the Chiefs offense and success has been Charlie Weis in the the last 3 years. That is the only constant when you look back at when this offense had success. And to say it's not dealing in reality is ridiculous, it was also a "stone cold fact" that Charlie Weis called the plays for the Chiefs in 2010 (except for the 2nd half of an important wildcard game that the Chiefs then got shutout for).

But, to share a bit of imagination..... Weiss left after that one season, suggesting that he was not thrilled with some interference in running the offense. Pretty easy to make a BS statement that Haley was far more involved with the offense than what you want to give the guy credit for.

You're telling me that Todd Haley didn't get along with someone...I'm shocked.

[ctchiefsfan]

in 2010, the team goes 10-6 and gets a wild card berth.

Ummmm....just plain wrong. We won the AFC West in 2010. You wreck the credibility of your argument when you make mistakes this glaring.

[Ryfo18]

Ummmm....just plain wrong. We won the AFC West in 2010. You wreck the credibility of your argument when you make mistakes this glaring.

Thank you for your argumentum ad logicam...undermine me rather than address the arguments themselves.

We won the AFC West and played in the Wild Card game. What a terrible mistake on my part.

[Ryfo18]

But aren't the personnel discussions pretty much over for now? At least at the "high profile" positions. Seems like time to get behind the team to me.

I'm behind the team 100%...Just stating my opinion that I think Cassel is the weakest link.

[chief31]

I'm the one denying reality? You make it sound like it wasn't 100% obvious that Charlie Weis called the plays all year. Let me spell it out for you again:

1.) Todd Haley comes to coach the team in 2009. He calls the plays and the team goes 4-12.
2.) Charlie Weis is named as the offensive coordinator in 2010, the team goes 10-6 and gets a wild card berth. There was no secret who was calling the plays, as you make it out to seem like.

ESPN's AFC West Insider Bill Williamson seems to agree here by stating:

"How much Weis had to do with the Chiefs' success is open to conjecture, but players said he contributed greatly to the improvement that took Kansas City to a 10-6 record. Running back Jamaal Charles, wide receiver Dwayne Bowe and Cassel made the Pro Bowl after the Chiefs won their first AFC West title since 2003.

Cassel's improvement was dramatic; he had 16 TD passes and 16 interceptions when Haley was calling plays, but under Weis -- until the last two games -- he played nearly mistake-free." (Source: Bill Muir to be Kansas City Chiefs' new O-coordinator - ESPN)

3.) We can again look to Haley's playcalling record when he stripped Weis of playcalling duties in the wildcard game against the Ravens (source: Report: Haley stripped play-calling duties from Weis | ProFootballTalk). The Chiefs went into halftime down 10-7. They failed to score a point in the second half.

4.) Todd Haley gets fired midway before the 2011 season even finishes.



You continue to speak that I'm not "dealing in reality" and living in a "dream world", when it's 100% obvious that the critical link between the Chiefs offense and success has been Charlie Weis in the the last 3 years. That is the only constant when you look back at when this offense had success. And to say it's not dealing in reality is ridiculous, it was also a "stone cold fact" that Charlie Weis called the plays for the Chiefs in 2010 (except for the 2nd half of an important wildcard game that the Chiefs then got shutout for).



You're telling me that Todd Haley didn't get along with someone...I'm shocked.

There is no argument here. You are just continuing to spin, and here you are right back at the plain fact that Todd Haley coached this team from 2-14 to 10-6 division champs in two years.

Why would anybody ever try so hard to argue against reality so fervently?

Oh..... The 2-14 team Haley inherited wasn't awesome the first year he was there, but got good in the second year?

And you are presenting the obvious as some kind of evidence of..... Anything at all?

Why? Would you expect immediate success the first season, and then no improvement the second year?

Sure Todd Haley sucks at getting along with the people he works with. But....... He STILL coached this team from 2-14 to 10-6 division champs in two years.

Deny reality all you like, but it just does not go away.

"You made it sound like....." Ummm.... Like reality? Sorry if you don't like that. But there were definitely two hands in the offense, although that, as well as your ridiculous "100%" claim.are speculation. As is your desperate act of finding someone who agrees with you.

Weiss did a good job. Todd Haley, being the HC, did a good job. But, in my opinion, both are fired if JC had gone out with injury to start THAT season.

I get that Haley is gone, and, as such, does not get the "loyalty" of the teams fans.

But denying him the credit he EARNED is just sad.

[ctchiefsfan]

Thank you for your argumentum ad logicam...undermine me rather than address the arguments themselves.

We won the AFC West and played in the Wild Card game. What a terrible mistake on my part.

It wasn't a criminal mistake, but pretty glaring......which takes away from the credibility of the rest of your argument.