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Thread: Questions about Defense

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    Hi, I'm an Andy Reid fan from Philly (started a couple other threads) and a new Chiefs fan. I'm trying to study up on your roster. Can some of you help me out with some of this?

    It looks like you have several very high draft picks on defense who look like busts. Here are my impressions, without knowing much about the Chiefs. You guys can tell me if I'm on the right/wrong track.

    Tyson Jackson: Looks like a bust. Some one who physically would be ideally suited to play 3-4 DE, but has not been in the least bit productive. Probably makes a lot of money. Some one I'm guessing Reid will get rid of when he cleans house. Am I missing something with him? Does he have any redeeming qualities?

    Glen Dorsey: Looks like a bust, but possibly miscast. If Reid brings in a 4-3 DC, possibly Dorsey could excel in that role. He looks like he has an enormous contract. I'm guessing that if they remain a 3-4 team he might get cut. If they switch to a 4-3, the new GM might ask him to take a pay cut, restructure and then compete as a 4-3 DT. Am I reading his situation correctly?

    Dontari Poe: My Eagles drafted DT Fletcher Cox one pick later, who turned out to be a stud. Poe looks like some one who could only play 3-4 NT. Does he have the quickness and motor to play 4-3 DT? Reid likes defensive linemen with "motors" who are relentless on every down. If they switch schemes, I could picture him as trade bait. What are the impressions of him?

    Tamba Hali: I'm a Penn State grad. Love this guy. He's an Andy Reid type of guy with the relentless motor. Seems like he could play both 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE equally well. Is that correct? He's getting up there in age. I just watched Trent Cole hit 30 and fall off considerably this past season. Hope Hali has a little more left in the tank.

    Dereck Johnson: This guy seems like a stud, but he's 30 years old. Does he call the signals on the defense? Wear the helmet with the headset? If they switch to a 4-3, would he hold up well as the MIKE LB?

    Justin Houston: This seems like the type of guy that Reid would want to build his defense around. A talented/productive young guy. Not much of a cap hit. Problem is, what to do with him if they switch to a 4-3? Seems too small to play DE, and too much of a pure pass rusher to play OLB in a 4-3. Does he have experience as a 4-3 DE in college and does he have a frame to bulk up 10-15 pounds?

    I know that Berry and Flowers are good. The other guys in the secondary need to go? Has Berry lived up to expectations?

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranciscoD'anconia View Post
    Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?................
    That right there was Pioli's folly. The answer is you don't draft D-Lineman who played 4-3 in college to play 3-4 in the pros with a top 5 pick. They're better served to look for 3-4 type of guys in later rounds or FA that have experience playing in the 3-4.

    This statement of "it's 3-4 D-Linemans job to take up blockers" is unacceptable when referring to players taken in the top 5, and many are forgetting how Neil Smith, Bill Maas, and Dan Saleaumua were able to get consistent pressure on opposing QB's playing in the 3-4 back in the 90's.

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    Yeah, Neil Smith!! I don't follow the Chiefs, but I sure remember him. He was a beast! So they played a 3-4 back then? Yeah, no excuse. This line needs to be upgraded. Reid likes to win in the trenches. He's going to want to do something about this line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranciscoD'anconia View Post
    Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?

    I don't know if Reid will go to a 4-3 or keep a 3-4, but I don't see him keeping some one around who makes $14 million and doesn't make plays, even if it's what he had been asked to do. If the defense was ranked 20th, something wasn't working. So that's why I'm trying to figure it out, in the same way that Reid is looking at it trying to figure it out.

    Chiefnut, your best friend sounds like a typical Eagles fan. They all hate Reid, but they all hate just about everybody. The only Eagle who was really loved in Philadelphia was Brian Dawkins. I can't think of another player or coach since at least Reggie White that I can say that about, and I'm not even sure about him. But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.
    Without getting too technical, the type of 3-4 that Crennel used had the DL occupying blockers. It is a different type of 3-4 than Houston and some other teams used.

    One thing to note is that when Crennel fired himself as DC, Tyson Jackson got 3sacks. He used to never play on 3rd down and in the second half of the season they started to use him.

    My opinion on the players is along the same lines as Texaschief.

    Also, it is important to note that Dorsey is a free agent. He would probably demand a big contract with a 4-3 team.

    In the secondary, Arenas filled in at CB when we released Routt. He did ok, but got torched by Manning and the donkeys. Lewis is serviceable at FS but injury prone. We need some better depth all around in the secondary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranciscoD'anconia View Post
    Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?

    I don't know if Reid will go to a 4-3 or keep a 3-4, but I don't see him keeping some one around who makes $14 million and doesn't make plays, even if it's what he had been asked to do. If the defense was ranked 20th, something wasn't working. So that's why I'm trying to figure it out, in the same way that Reid is looking at it trying to figure it out.

    Chiefnut, your best friend sounds like a typical Eagles fan. They all hate Reid, but they all hate just about everybody. The only Eagle who was really loved in Philadelphia was Brian Dawkins. I can't think of another player or coach since at least Reggie White that I can say that about, and I'm not even sure about him. But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.
    They used the same system as New England. Richard Seymore's best season was 8 sacks. He only averaged 4.5 per year. It's not like he was some kind of sack machine. There are different versions of a 3-4 defense. There's the version that the Giants run where their DEs are their pass rushers. Then, there's the New England style where the Dline is the primary run-stoppers and the LBs are the pass rushers.

    Don't look at the Chiefs rankings. There's so many different factors that contribute to that ranking. Rankings aren't just black and white. The Chiefs are a very talented team. There's a reason why people were picking KC to win the division heading into the season. Give this team a QB and an offensive direction and you could very well see an Indianapolis type turnaround. The pieces are there for this Chiefs team to be super competitive. How many 2-win teams send 5-7 players to the Super Bowl? Don't let the record and rankings fool you... this team is poised for a breakout year.

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    Oh OK, Dorsey is a free agent. I doubt he'll be back then. Reid will want to clean house and bring in his own guys.

    Is there a good page with salary and cap info for the Chiefs and their players? The Eagles have this page, which is awesome:

    Philadelphia Eagles Salary Cap -- Current Year Cap Values

    Anyone know of anything for the Chiefs like that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    That right there was Pioli's folly. The answer is you don't draft D-Lineman who played 4-3 in college to play 3-4 in the pros with a top 5 pick. They're better served to look for 3-4 type of guys in later rounds or FA that have experience playing in the 3-4.

    This statement of "it's 3-4 D-Linemans job to take up blockers" is unacceptable when referring to players taken in the top 5, and many are forgetting how Neil Smith, Bill Maas, and Dan Saleaumua were able to get consistent pressure on opposing QB's playing in the 3-4 back in the 90's.
    The Chiefs played a 5-2 defense in the 90s, which is an earlier version of the 3-4. They used smaller, quicker DLinemen to create Qb pressure at each DL position. Coming out of college, Smith was 6'4 260lbs and ran a 4.5 40... please compare him to any of the guys on our current D-line. The 2012 3-4 the Chiefs ran was a completely different defense than what they ran in the 90s. To expect the guys currently on the DL to do what the guys in the 90s did isn't a fair assessment.

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    I should also mention that we had quite a few pretty decent role players on the DL as well.
    Allen Bailey (3rd round pick 2 years ago) has done ok at DE in rotation.

    Ropati Pitoitua is a huge polynesian guy we picked up in FA that has done surprisingly well. He has had quite a few sacks and a few tackles for loss. He has been playing DE and started a few games when other guys were injured.

    Jerrell Powe was a late round pick a couple years back and does decent in run support in rotation.

    We also had Shaun Smith for a short time as our DE the last half of the season. He is a Romeo Crennel guy and has followed Crennel around a lot. Not sure if he is under contract or a free agent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texaschief View Post
    The Chiefs played a 5-2 defense in the 90s, which is an earlier version of the 3-4. They used smaller, quicker DLinemen to create Qb pressure at each DL position. Coming out of college, Smith was 6'4 260lbs and ran a 4.5 40... please compare him to any of the guys on our current D-line. The 2012 3-4 the Chiefs ran was a completely different defense than what they ran in the 90s. To expect the guys currently on the DL to do what the guys in the 90s did isn't a fair assessment.
    It is when you consider the current guys were drafted in the top 11 -- 3 of them since 2008. If they can't rush the passer consistently, then it's a waste to take them there at those spots. JJ Watt has illustrated that. I don't care what type of so called 3-4 is being run.

    I'll give a pass on Dorsey, because he was drafted to be 4-3 DT and became a victim of Pioli's folly.

    Ask yourself, if the current guys do not compare to Neil Smith's ability, then why take them that high in the draft? No good reason at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranciscoD'anconia View Post
    Oh OK, Dorsey is a free agent. I doubt he'll be back then. Reid will want to clean house and bring in his own guys.

    Is there a good page with salary and cap info for the Chiefs and their players? The Eagles have this page, which is awesome:

    Philadelphia Eagles Salary Cap -- Current Year Cap Values

    Anyone know of anything for the Chiefs like that?
    Go here to see the Chiefs

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    It is when you consider the current guys were drafted in the top 11 -- 3 of them since 2008. If they can't rush the passer consistently, then it's a waste to take them there at those spots. JJ Watt has illustrated that. I don't care what type of so called 3-4 is being run.

    I'll give a pass on Dorsey, because he was drafted to be 4-3 DT and became a victim of Pioli's folly.

    Ask yourself, if the current guys do not compare to Neil Smith's ability, then why take them that high in the draft? No good reason at all.
    Those were all past management choices lets see what Reid does with them. He might get a DC that wants them to rush the QB and not fill gaps and we may have the next Watts on the team or he might cut them all. One reason Jackson is scheduled to make so much money this year is he reworked his contract last year.

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