Go Ravens !!

[brdempsey69]

I hope they upset the Donks in Denver today.

I've always said that Denver never has won a SB outright and had those 2 in '97 and '98 given to them as a going-away present to their crybaby, buck-toothed, turd-out-of-back-pocket pulling QB named Elway because he wasn't good enough to win one outright.

[Eydugstr]

I remember that, they showed them wiping down their jerseys with a rag. As if that was going to rectify the situation.

+1. That's the way that whole game went. Markbrieght should've been ejecting people until they came back with clean jerseys. In cold weather like that, that stuff will not just "wipe off" with a towel on the sideline. The officiating was just awful the whole game, they let Denver get away with anything. At one point, late in the game, KC's offense got into a huddle and a Denver defensive lineman walked over within earshot of the huddle, not one official said anything!!

KC shot itself in the foot by not sticking with Gannon, and the goofy reluctance to run Greg Hill (Hill always ran well against the Donks), but the refs really did a number on that game.

[Chiefster]

+1. That's the way that whole game went. Markbrieght should've been ejecting people until they came back with clean jerseys. In cold weather like that, that stuff will not just "wipe off" with a towel on the sideline. The officiating was just awful the whole game, they let Denver get away with anything. At one point, late in the game, KC's offense got into a huddle and a Denver defensive lineman walked over within earshot of the huddle, not one official said anything!!

KC shot itself in the foot by not sticking with Gannon, and the goofy reluctance to run Greg Hill (Hill always ran well against the Donks), but the refs really did a number on that game.

Yup, we were never, ever going to win that game.

[rbedgood]

I can easily name 25 other QB's that I would take over him,

...been a while, but I lurk occasionally still. This comment was just too much and I had to respond. 25?? HAHAHAHA...dude, you just went from biased to ignorant with that statement. Elway can be accused of not being able to carry a team through the playoffs on his own back, but where most people rank him in the top 5, I agree that is way too high...but down to 26 or lower? Seriously, he was an arrogant, spoiled Stanford snob...but he's at least in the top 15 all time still.

I definitely put the following guys in front of him (not necessarily in order)

Montana, Brady, Manning(P), Unitas, Marino, Young, Otto Graham, Staubach (yeah even a 49er fan will admit he's top 10), Favre, Tarkenton, Warner & Starr...

Arguments could be made for Bradshaw, Moon, Kelly, Dawson, Tittle & Fouts...but even as an Elway hater you are hard-pressed to include many (any) from this 2nd list and you are stretching beyond bias....so which 6 more are you adding to the list to get to 25?

[brdempsey69]

...been a while, but I lurk occasionally still. This comment was just too much and I had to respond. 25?? HAHAHAHA...dude, you just went from biased to ignorant with that statement.

HAHAHAHA....The ignorance is all on your side. Read on.

Elway can be accused of not being able to carry a team through the playoffs on his own back, but where most people rank him in the top 5, I agree that is way too high...but down to 26 or lower? Seriously, he was an arrogant, spoiled Stanford snob...but he's at least in the top 15 all time still.

According to whom? The neighbors dog that his fans and media have been humping up over him for nearly 3 decades? Are you one of those? Marty sure sounded like he was when he made the retarded statement that Elway was best QB ever, in spite of having coached Joe Montana for 2 seasons.

I definitely put the following guys in front of him (not necessarily in order)

Montana, Brady, Manning(P), Unitas, Marino, Young, Otto Graham, Staubach (yeah even a 49er fan will admit he's top 10), Favre, Tarkenton, Warner & Starr...

Examine your statement in bold a little bit more closely. You say you have those guys ranked ahead of Elway & yet you call someone else ignorant because they have 25 or more that they'd prefer ahead of him? I'd suggest you look long and hard in the mirror -- you're liable to find the "'ignorant" finger pointing right back at you with your name tattooed on it.

Arguments could be made for Bradshaw, Moon, Kelly, Dawson, Tittle & Fouts...but even as an Elway hater you are hard-pressed to include many (any) from this 2nd list and you are stretching beyond bias....

That's a crock of BS. Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls OUTRIGHT!!! There isn't ANY "hard-pressing" there. As for Moon, Kelly, Dawson, Tittle, Fouts, nobody would be hard pressed to rank any of those guys ahead Elway. All of them put up better passing numbers their first 10 years than Elway did his first 10 & against better opponents overall collectively as Denver generally had easy schedules throughout Elway's career.

Stretching beyond bias? You're aching Aunt Fannie's a$$ !!

....so which 6 more are you adding to the list to get to 25?

I can double that easily. Here they are:

Norm Van Brocklin
George Blanda
Sid Luckman
Joe Namath
Ken Stabler
Jim Plunkett
Joe Theismann
Sonny Jurgenson
Bob Griese
Troy Aikman
Roman Gabriel
Sammy Baugh
John Brodie
Ken Anderson

Like I said, the ignorance is all on your side.

[Chiefster]

I love this thread.

[rbedgood]

bdempsey, you're bias shows through loud and clear. I agree with you that Elway is far over-rated, but you are listing a bunch of guys who were barely pro-bowl caliber players to double the list. Elway, whether you like it or not is a Hall of Fame QB. Frankly he did more for his team, than Aikman did for his. Elway was one of the best players on his team year in and year out...maybe 1-2 better on any Broncos rosters he was part of?! Whereas Aikman wasn't even on the top 5 of the Cowboys rosters at any point....

Griese, Blanda and Stabler slipped my mind, and I would agree with those 3...so yeah, he's not top 15, probably closer to 20ish...but if you want to talk about over-rated QBs, Namath has to make that list too.

End of the day we're arguing over semantics...we both agree Elway was over-rated. I shouldn't have called you ignorant, but putting Elway outside the top 25 seems over-the-top to me. I would still have him around 15, but can see arguments for 20-22 based on the player lists you provided. I admit a few of those players were guys I didn't think of, and most I dismissed as I disagree with you.

[Chiefster]

bdempsey, you're bias shows through loud and clear. I agree with you that Elway is far over-rated, but you are listing a bunch of guys who were barely pro-bowl caliber players to double the list. Elway, whether you like it or not is a Hall of Fame QB. Frankly he did more for his team, than Aikman did for his. Elway was one of the best players on his team year in and year out...maybe 1-2 better on any Broncos rosters he was part of?! Whereas Aikman wasn't even on the top 5 of the Cowboys rosters at any point....

Griese, Blanda and Stabler slipped my mind, and I would agree with those 3...so yeah, he's not top 15, probably closer to 20ish...but if you want to talk about over-rated QBs, Namath has to make that list too.

End of the day we're arguing over semantics...we both agree Elway was over-rated. I shouldn't have called you ignorant, but putting Elway outside the top 25 seems over-the-top to me. I would still have him around 15, but can see arguments for 20-22 based on the player lists you provided. I admit a few of those players were guys I didn't think of, and most I dismissed as I disagree with you.

Agreed, even with his Super Bowl win.

[KristofLaw]

I can't wait to hear all the back tracking on Monday on ESPN. Green Bay got beat the eff down and Peyton was playoff Peyton, man does he choke when it really counts. How does he do so well in the regular season and just lay eggs in the playoffs. You take away the two 100 yard returns and that game isn't close.

What with the Elway debate raging on I thought I might add that within even Peyton's household I'd think there are some who think he is ranked third amongst Archie's boys on the field. If not for an injury his older brother, many thought, would have been the standout Manning... and with Eli showing Peyton what a winner looks like in the clutch...

[brdempsey69]

bdempsey, you're bias shows through loud and clear. I agree with you that Elway is far over-rated, but you are listing a bunch of guys who were barely pro-bowl caliber players to double the list. Elway, whether you like it or not is a Hall of Fame QB. Frankly he did more for his team, than Aikman did for his. Elway was one of the best players on his team year in and year out...maybe 1-2 better on any Broncos rosters he was part of?! Whereas Aikman wasn't even on the top 5 of the Cowboys rosters at any point....

Griese, Blanda and Stabler slipped my mind, and I would agree with those 3...so yeah, he's not top 15, probably closer to 20ish...but if you want to talk about over-rated QBs, Namath has to make that list too.

End of the day we're arguing over semantics...we both agree Elway was over-rated. I shouldn't have called you ignorant, but putting Elway outside the top 25 seems over-the-top to me. I would still have him around 15, but can see arguments for 20-22 based on the player lists you provided. I admit a few of those players were guys I didn't think of, and most I dismissed as I disagree with you.

Fair enough. All I ask is to give me the chance to explain where I am coming from, before tagging me as "ignorant" -- one loses credibility doing that. Now as for bias goes, you know that works both ways, as evidenced by those that call Elway the greatest QB, ever. I'd still prefer all those guys listed over him. I could also add Joe Kapp and a unknown named Greg Cook ( shoulder injury derailed his career ) to that list. The leadership provided by those two was off the scale.

I wouldn't say Namath was overrated. He could throw that football as well as any QB who ever played. His problem was his knee injuries & the fact that opposing defenders were always looking to beat the hell out of him. By Namath's 4th season in 1968, he became more than a great passer & became very good overall QB. The thing to remember is that Namath called his own plays -- in SB III, he called more than 50% at the line of scrimmage. Elway didn't call all his own plays. He didn't even look like a true QB until '93 when Jim Fassell became his OC & prior to that Ron Jaworski ( there's another one that I'd add to my list ) had criticized Elway's overall mechanics.

Bottom line, to me, is when a player has to have the type of concessions made for him the way it was done for Elway in '97 and '98 ( and I could go on and on with one example after another ), then he's not a true champion -- he's a f***ing loser. None of the other QB's we've listed would have ever wanted that -- consider that & you get the idea that my preferring those other QB's over Elway may not be as biased as one might initially think as those other QB's played on a level playing field 100% of the time and that cannot be truthfully said about Elway.

I will give Elway his due as a GM. He's done a pretty good job there getting them turned around & he certainly has done a better job of drafting than Pioli did ( although that's not saying much ), and every other GM in the AFC West over the last 2 years.

[Eydugstr]

I started out as a Broncos fan, after living in Denver for awhile. Elway is revered as a god there, but the final turn off for me was all the BS surrounding the separation between Reeves and Elway. Reeves did a lot of work building those teams, and in the end people treated him like the bad guy.

A lot of people forget Elway had a lot of mediocre seasons, too (for ex. the Wade Wilson years).