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Thread: Are the 2014 Chiefs better?

  1. #1
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    The free agent offerings have been picked over. There's very little left. Maybe KC could get Sid Rice on a one-year prove it deal.

    There's the draft, of course. The draft may add an immediate contributor, but you shouldn't count on it. It unrealistic to expect immediate help coming at one or more positions. Eric Fisher did very little last year.

    This team has holes or question marks at LE, LILB, FS, LG, RG, LT, RT and WR2. They've either filled in the gaps with lesser talent (Joe Mays, Vance Walker) or are relying on unproven talent like Eric Fisher, Donald Stephenson, Rishaw Johnson, Sanders Commings and A.J. Jenkins.

    Yes, the cap is an issue. But what has John Dorsey done to address it? Why wasn't Eric Berry signed long term, creating cap space? Why are under-performing and overpaid 2013 FA busts Anthony Fasano and Donnie Avery still here?

    As it stands now, this team looks significantly worse than last year's team.

    John Dorsey, what have you done for me lately? What have you done at all?
    ...in my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eydugstr View Post
    Okay, so what's your measuring stick for good? Must hold the Lombardi trophy in his rookie season? Numbers of holding calls?

    Yes KC decided to attack one of it's opponents via the front office. Go figure. Carl Peterson did a number on the Raiders and Seahawks over the years this way. And no, when it comes to bad decisions, the Raiders don't seem to lose much sleep over it at all. They also don't seem to learn much from them, either.
    Well, I will refer to PFF for a stat measure. Stephenson loses badly on that.

    Then I simply list the players who are better than he is at his position. 32 RT. If a player is better than 7-12 of those players, he is in the B group, i.e. good. Donald Stephenson is not in that group.

    Who cares what King Carl did? What did it get us? Besides the Raiders were a different team then. You don't build a championship by raiding teams drafting 5th. You build a team that can beat SEA. Then beating DEN takes care of itself.

    Do Joe Mays, Jeff Linkenbach, Husain Abdullah, or Vance Walker help us beat SEA? Do they help us beat DEN? Do they even help us beat OAK?

    No. They do not.
    ...in my opinion

  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    Isnít the cap +/- determined by the cap hit minus the dead money? If so, cutting both saves $1.76 if done before roster & workout bonuses are paid.

    Regardless, those two arenít the bigger item.

    Iíd rather have kept Schwartz and skipped all of the garbage signings like Mays, Walker and Linkenbach. Iíd rather pay UFAís the league minimum, if thatís the route weíre going Ė just getting bodies to fill a roster.

    Sign Berry long term and you could have had $8M in cap space. One simple, no brainer move could have helped solve a lot more problems. There are ways to create cap space. Dorsey did nothing except cut TJ, which was a no brainer. I was hoping to see some creativity.

    Maybe Dorsey knows what he is doing. Then again, maybe he doesnít.
    The dead money not comes into play until you cut or (sometimes) trade someone. It is based on the guaranteed money for the length of the contract signed. Fasano has money guaranteed for the next couple of years that is equal to more than his total salary this year. We would have to pay him that money out of our cap now if we cut him, meaning it costs more to cut him. Avery's salary is almost the same as his guaranteed salary.

    Generally it seems like you have a much lower opinion of the players we have / signed than others do.

    I read that Walker was not a run stuffer, but was a decent interior pass rusher. Not a stud, but someone, when put next to the double teams that Poe will create, can put pressure on QBs. If you look at him that way, then he makes way more sense as a signing. Who do we play in our division: Rivers and Manning. Both of whom break down under constant pressure. TJax sucked at pass rush. We don't need a run stuffer, we need a pass rusher.

    Same thing with Mays. Even though he is slated to be a "starter" he will probably see less playing time than our 3rd CB AND 3rd safety. He is the first one to come out on passing downs. You don't go and sign a stud WILB who plays on first down and short yardage only. Especially when Peyton wants to throw on the goalline anyways. Mays is known for his special teams play. Guess what, we have one of the best special teams coaches and set a record for longest average kick returns last year. You bet your *** they are going to drop a few bucks to keep that going. Mays is the type who can help make that happen.

    I agree we should have kept Schwartz. But he was asking more than we could afford at the time.

    I would love to extend Berry long term. Maybe they have already been trying to do that and Berry wants more than he should be getting. He has been in the pro-bowl every year except the one he tore his ACL, right? He prob wants to be the highest paid SS in the league. Same with Houston. I guarantee you they are working with Alex to get a long term deal done. The problem is he showed he can drive a high scoring offense at the end of the season, he is going to want to finally get his pay day. Idiots like the Ravens gave Flacco stupid money, so Smith probably wants similar (to me they are probably equivalent talents). If you want to blame Dorsey for not getting these negotiations done sooner, that's fine with me. It's a legit complaint, but just realize negotiations are two sided.

    Supposedly, they are willing to spend close to another 5 mil (see Sanders rumors and DJax rumors) which means they expect to free up at least 2 mil in money this year. That means they have probably been working on contract negotiations with guys. Shoot, maybe they are even looking at moving B. flowers and seeing if they can get back into the 2nd round for him. If that happened, not sure how I'd feel.

    I don't think we have moved backwards, we are treading water, which to me is impressive since we have an anchor full of gold bricks tied to our ankles.

  4. #23
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    I'm trying to think of positions were our (predicted) starters are worse than last year. The only one I can come up with is Schwartz at guard, and maybe TJ at DE. That's it. Albert wasn't starting. We already have the players to replace Dexter's skill set. And losing Lewis probably makes us better regardless of who replaces him. With 6 draft picks and several FAs still available, can we replace a guard and a DE? I think so.

    We haven't really gotten better at any positions, but I don't think we've gotten significantly worse. And we are not done yet. We will need to hit on a couple of draft picks. Dorsey was very good at that in Green Bay. I'm willing to give him a chance. Even if we struggle some this year, with the continued progression of our young players and boucoup picks in next years draft we should be poised for success in 2015 and beyond.

    We went 11-5 last year, but that doesn't mean we are on the cusp of a Super Bowl. It just means we are WAY ahead of schedule. You don't build a dynasty in one year.
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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    The LT that was hurt logged as many snaps as the guy replacing him, Eric Fisher. Stephenson logged even less. Neither played as well, overall.
    The point is Albert wasn't exactly great. Stephenson held his won in there when he was filling in for Albert when Albert got hurt. BTW the play he got hurt was because he was ABUSED BADLY and hurt his shoulder trying to make up for it. The point is Albert is NOT unreplaceable. Hardly worth saying it was a huge loss.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    Devito is a good player. So was TJ, that is, as a traditional run stuffing 34 DE. He wasnít worth the $$$ and he certainly didnít generate pass rush which is what gets you noticed. Vance Walker is not as good. Name one position where the Chiefs have upgraded this offseason.
    Like with Albert both Jackson and Devito while good are not devestating losses. They are nice players that can be replaced. Hardly worth saying the team is being decimated. Are they good players yeah ok. But decimated is a reach IMO.

    As for Walker has he ever played for Andy Reid? I'm big on coaching having a big impact of a team and players. Walker might do better under Reid he might not. I won't whine about it until I see him on the field failing. That's just how I am

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    The team was 2-12 in 2012 under an idiot as a coach. Improvement was guaranteed by removing Romeo Crennel no matter who the GM, HC or QB was. So yes, we finally beat the Buffalo Bills. Whoopie.



    The 2013 team was not built by John Dorsey. None of the core players came though him. Not that I wanted Pioli to stay or Herman Edwards. Dorsey did a nice job filling in last year with Devito, Sean Smith and even Akeem Jordan. Thatís it.

    You can attribute last yearís success to Andy Reid, if you want. You can give to Al Smith. You canít give it to John Dorsey. He didnít even hire Reid, for goodness sake. In truth, all three were in the right place at the right time.

    Iíve yet to see Dorsey hit in last yearís draft. I didnít like the ďEric Fisher/Branden Albert maneuverĒ. Still donít. I wanted Star Lotuleilei. I thought two R2 was too much for Al Smith. Still do. Kelce was hurt. And the rest, meh. Hopefully someone steps up in there. Otherwise it doesnít look much better than Pioliís drafts.

    This year, heís impeded by the second R2 he overpaid for Al Smith. This, in one of the deepest drafts in years. Weíll see what he can do in this draft for sure. By my accounting we probably need 3 starters minimum (WR2, RG, FS).
    Of course Dorsey didn't build last years team. He just got to KC. That's not exactly breaking news. Show me a GM that built a team in one off season?

    And there isn't anyone on here that will agree with you more about the horrible coaching in 2012 I was the one on here telling people that it wasn't the QB that was holding this team back in 2012. Not a lot of people liked it but it was clear. Reid is more of a factor then anyone in turning the team around. I will agree but that's not to say Dorsey didn't do his part for a first year gm.

    He brought in Alex Smith. He's the one that made the trade happen. If you think he overpaid for him then that's your opinion seeing that Alex helped take a 2 win team to 11 then while losing Charles early in the playoff game put up over 40 points any shred of defense at all and this team would have won there first playoff game in who knows how many years. I happen to think we paid a fair price. And am expecting better out of Alex this season. I'll be very disappointed if I don't see him play at least at the level he left off last year.

    As for having yet to see Dorsey hit on a draft pick. Well yeah you have even said it's very rare to see rookies come in and make an impact right away. Don't you think it might be fair to let that class play game 1 in year two before gripping about that class? The Jury of that class just finished with opening arguments they have yet to go into the jury room to reach the verdict.

    Like the draft class the jury is not back with Dorsey. Year 2 will be a good step into reaching the verdict on him. But whatever that verdict is this is going to be the type of offseason you are just going to have to get use to as Dorsey is a guy who leans heavily on the draft. The deciding factor on him will be how well he drafts. That's just how he works. I myself like this because it has a much better track record then what Denver is currently doing. On paper I think we have to conceded the division to Denver. But lucky for all of us the games are not played on paper
    ​BAN ROY


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    Stephenson improved from below average to mediocre last year. "Improvement" doesn't make him good. He hasn't proven anything yet.
    Oh really? Looked to me like the Offense didn't skip a beat when Stephenson replaced Mr. False Start King Albert at LT. And I watched the games -- multiple times via NFL Game Rewind. What did Albert ever prove to justify him wanting to be paid top-5 LT money? Nothing, except that he should have been playing Guard all along like he did in college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    The LT that was hurt logged as many snaps as the guy replacing him, Eric Fisher. Stephenson logged even less. Neither played as well, overall.
    It sounds as though this is based off PFF ratings which are total worthless garbage regarding O-Lineman. They never say anything about the opponents that said players are going up against. The overhead camera trumps any PFF trash. Fisher faced a better series of opponents than Albert did. Albert did not outplay either Stephenson or Fisher. It was about even at best. I know, because I watched them all closely. Not to mention that Albert was never a clutch performer. Go watch the play where Alex get called for intentional grounding in the playoff game thanks mainly to a complete whiff by Mr. Clutch Albert ( sarcasm ) that causes Alex to look from left to right, instead of just being able to just flip the ball to Dex like the play was intended.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    Well, I will refer to PFF for a stat measure. Stephenson loses badly on that.

    Then I simply list the players who are better than he is at his position. 32 RT. If a player is better than 7-12 of those players, he is in the B group, i.e. good. Donald Stephenson is not in that group.
    That right there is part of the problem. PFF ratings regarding O-Lineman are completely worthless. The overhead camera trumps any PFF trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I’ve yet to see Dorsey hit in last year’s draft. I didn’t like the “Eric Fisher/Branden Albert maneuver”. Still don’t. I wanted Star Lotuleilei. I thought two R2 was too much for Al Smith. Still do. Kelce was hurt. And the rest, meh. Hopefully someone steps up in there. Otherwise it doesn’t look much better than Pioli’s drafts.
    Personally, I loved it. I applaud Dorsey for not caving in Albert's demands. I always thought Albert looked like a Guard playing out of position at LT and as I said before he was never a clutch performer at the position. Let's really tell it like it is -- Albert was everybody's crutch for taking Berry over Russell Okung back in 2010, which is the real reason Albert gets a hall pass from a majority of fans. There's no hindsight in that, either. I had told people prior to that draft if Okung fell to #5 in the 2010 draft, that he should be the pick because passing on him would only delay the inevitable of drafting a LT in round 1 for a short time, and sure enough, Fisher wound up being taken #1 overall in 2013. The O-Line didn't skip a beat when Albert was out last year and Stephenson and Fisher were manning the Tackle spots, in fact it looked like a beat or two was picked up.

    As for Star Lotuleilei, I'm glad the Chiefs didn't take him. Tuitt is a better prospect in this years draft and he outproduced Lotuleilei in college and the Chiefs may very well draft him, as there is no Defensive player in this draft that fits the Chiefs Defense better than Tuitt does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post

    I know there are two sides to this. In the real world, there are deadlines for accomplishing things. Dorsey had all of last season until FA began to extend Eric Berry’s contract to create cap space. Unless, of course, Dorsey’s really not interested. Then KC fans have a bigger problem. The man would be a fool.
    Wouldn't break my heart any if Berry's allowed to walk after his rookie contract expires. Way overhyped and overpaid. He's not the best SS in football, as that honor goes to the guy wearing #31 up in Seattle, Cam Chancellor, who's played so well from 2011 to the present that the Hawks brass tore up his rookie contact in 2012 and are paying him somewhere around 6 or 7 mill a year. Alex Smith, Justin Houston, and Dontari Poe are all bigger priorities to get long term deals done with than Berry is.
    Last edited by brdempsey69; 04-02-2014 at 09:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdempsey69 View Post
    Wouldn't break my heart any if Berry's allowed to walk after his rookie contract expires.
    This is nothing more than speculation on my part, but I have a feeling that the Chiefs tried to renegotiate/extend Berry's contract. Remember on the day Jackson was released by the Eagles, Berry tweeted that a "big announcement" was coming. I speculated that the Chiefs were going to extend Berry's contract and, at the same time, free up enough additional cap space to sign DeSean.

    Well, at the end of the day Berry posted a YouTube video saying his big announcement was that "... um ... [his] football camps are starting soon and you can sign up on [his] website. So chill, Chiefs fans. It's all good."

    Here is what I think happened. The Chiefs made Berry an offer and his agent stepped in and told him not to sign it because he can get more in free agency after next season. Players tend to follow their agents advice pretty closely, because if they didn't think is was good advice, they would fire that agent and hire another one. I'm sure the Chiefs want to keep Berry, but they aren't going to overpay him. That's exactly what happened with Brandon Albert.

    If my guess is correct, they may very well let Berry walk after next season.
    Last edited by TopekaRoy; 04-02-2014 at 10:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopekaRoy View Post
    This is nothing more than speculation on my part, but I have a feeling that the Chiefs tried to renegotiate/extend Berry's contract. Remember on the day Jackson was released by the Eagles, Berry tweeted that a "big announcement" was coming. I speculated that the Chiefs were going to extend Berry's contract and, at the same time, free up enough additional cap space to sign DeSean.

    Well, at the end of the day Berry posted a YouTube video saying his big announcement was that "... um ... [his] football camps are starting soon and you can sign up on [his] website. So chill, Chiefs fans. It's all good."

    Here is what I think happened. The Chiefs made Berry an offer and his agent stepped in and told him not to sign it because he can get more in free agency after next season. Players tend to follow their agents advice pretty closely, because if they didn't think is was good advice, they would fire that agent and hire another one. I'm sure the Chiefs want to keep Berry, but they aren't going to overpay him. That's exactly what happened with Brandon Albert.

    If my guess is correct, they may very well let Berry walk after next season.
    I believe your speculation is spot on and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Berry is gone after 2015. Dorsey just doesn't smack anybody as the type that's going to pay a Safety the type of money that Berry is making now. I was surprised that he gave Bowe the big contract, but Dorsey may have been over a barrel somewhat on that one, because there weren't an FA WR's to be had in 2013 to replace him & if they'd have let Bowe walk, they'd have had nothing at WR and Bowe was the only established guy they had ( his untimely drops notwithstanding).

    I do expect the Chiefs to pick up WR's and DB's in the next two drafts. They'll have their 2nd rounder, plus at least 2, possibly 4, compensatory picks in 2015, so they don't have to overpay Berry or anyone else.

    As for 2014, for me it's a wait and see scenario, as the Chiefs are still a work in progress. What's really needed is for the 2013 draft class to stay healthier this year & every one of those guys to step his game up, because if that happens, they could make a huge impact.
    Last edited by brdempsey69; 04-03-2014 at 12:17 AM.

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    Mongo........Just what defines "better"?

    1) Winning the AFC West?

    2) Better record?

    3) Winning a playoff game?

    4) Having a better overall football team? And how exactly do you define that?

    Answers.......

    1) I think our chances of winning the AFC West this year are less than 50-50. Hate it, but I think I am being realistic. So in that regard we are not "better" but no worse either. So this is a wash as of now.

    2) A better record appears to be unlikely....simply because it appears we have a much tougher schedule than last year. That said, at this time in 2013 our schedule looked much tougher than it turned out to be thanks to the self-immolation of the NFC East. So this is a wash until the season starts.

    3) Winning a playoff game.....With how tough the schedule looks RIGHT NOW and with the forehead healthy, it appears we are looking for a Wildcard berth. If we can get that then it's a whole new season. So this is a wash too.

    4) Overall better football team? STUPID QUESTION. WAY TOO EARLY TO TELL. Whether we will be an overall better football team depends on Free Agency, the Draft, Coaching and a ton of other things. Yeah....the "BIG NAMES" in Free Agency are gone, but we couldn't afford them anyway. And Reid/Dorsey brought in a LOT of Free Agents all through the year for little or no money that did make meaningful contributions. I think they can do so again.

    So the answer to your question is that the question is RIDICULOUS.

    One thing is sure......2014 has a lot of similarities to 2011. So that is SCARY!!!! But Pioli and whats-his-dumbash-face are gone and we have a much better GM and coaching staff than we did in 2011. I know Dorsey is better than Pioli was and I am CERTAIN that Reid is a FAR better coach than any we have had in a long damn time.

    So will we be a better team in 2014 than we were in 2013? I think we have a decent shot at it. No matter what standard you choose to use.

    And just for giggles......What if we go 8-8 or 9-7, get a wildcard berth and win a playoff game?????? Does that make us better or worse? HMMMMMMMM..............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I donít believe teams are bought through free agency. I see this team being decimated by it though.

    Who considers Vancy a top 40 DL? By what criteria is Walker a better run defender than either TJ or Devito? Please cite your sources. PFF grades him lower than either, particularly as a run defender. Devito grades superbly versus the run (19.1 OVR, 23 RUN). TJ (14.6 OVR, 15.5 RUN). Vancy scored 4.0 OVR and -.6 versus the run.

    Donít like stats? Name one great defense Walker was a key part of. You canít. Heís average.

    Husain Abdullah outplayed Kendrick Lewis, one of the worst safeties in the league. Thatís your saving grace at safety? HA did not play even close to the number of snaps KLew logged (240 to 1072). Why? Because the coaches thought Lewis was better. They let him go and kept his backup.

    Joe Mays has been all over the league in a short time. DEN cut him in favor of moving their weakside LB to take over. A guy who is no longer on their team even though they had all of the cap room in the world.

    Joe Mays is a backup.

    I would love to be optimistic about where this team is headed in 2014. I donít see any reason to be.

    Saving grace. You are the one claiming we are decimated in Free Agency. We let go one of the worste Safties in the NFL because he was replaced.

    Sorry Vance is in the top 45 not top 40.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...tackles/page/8

    So as previously stated, you are so biased on your opinion that if they are not over paid #1 prospects they are all crap when it is really your opinion of down grading quality role players that needs to be looked at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seek View Post
    Saving grace. You are the one claiming we are decimated in Free Agency. We let go one of the worste Safties in the NFL because he was replaced.

    Sorry Vance is in the top 45 not top 40.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...tackles/page/8

    So as previously stated, you are so biased on your opinion that if they are not over paid #1 prospects they are all crap when it is really your opinion of down grading quality role players that needs to be looked at.
    As per Bleacher Report? Okay, if they say so, seeing how they are a credible source of opinion. I'd rely on Madden football ratings before considering Bleacher Report.
    ...in my opinion

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