Explaining my frustration with the QB hate.

[matthewschiefs]

This has sort of become my hot button issue when it comes to the Chiefs. And I thought I would attempt to explain why I feel so strongly about it. In a lot of ways it doesn't have much to do with the people on a forum saying it. Hey at the end of the day we are all just people giving an opinion.

It has more to do with the fact that this is the constant approach this franchise has seemed to have taken for the past nearly 10 years. Like I have said over and over again Since Bowe was drafted the WR core has been Bowe and a lot of below average guys and they have just hoped that it will work. IT HASN'T IT'S NOT GOING TO SUDDENLY START working.

The ZERO depth at WR could not be made more clear then week 1 this year. There should be ZERO conditions for a NFL team that Frankie Hammond Jr is a starting WR. ZERO. But that's what we saw. It's what we have given QB after QB. This is not a new thing for this team. Its choices of WR haven't been great. You can go WAY back for that. With the likes of Sammie Parker (who was ok at best) This is why I am so frustrated about this issue.

A couple of years ago when My Man Hali was here he had a saying about the definition of insanity being
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
That's what you can say about the talent on offense this team has built over the past decade. IT HAS TO CHANGE or they will never get any further the one and done IMO.

The good news is there is some hope currently on the roster DAT has shown he could become a good weapon. The deep past what got me excited was he actually made an adjustment on the ball. That's a good sign. Albert Wilson also showed some hope. He didn't play a lot early I wonder what could have happened if he was actually able to play throughout the season. If he could have made progress going forward.

My frustration doesn't come from some love for Alex Smith. I took the same heat for Cassel. My frustration comes from being tired of seeing the same thing repeated with QB after QB after QB. I was very open to the QB change and hope it would change for the first handful but after seeing as many as we have seen come through you have to ask yourself has the problem been this franchise is setting a QB up to fail? IMO the answer is a loud YES.

[matthewschiefs]

I thought that I was careful with my words. I did say that there were varying degrees of success.

I'm saying that the lineage of Chiefs QBs have been mediocre overall.

Green was solid, and his production was up there with the elite QBs during a couple seasons. No doubt.

My point is that the Chiefs philosophy of acquiring QBs plays more to a reliance on the exception rather than the rule. Teams rarely let go of good QBs that are still in their prime.

Trent was very good for the Chiefs. He was also the last one to have depth around him. THAT'S MY WHOLE ISSUE.

If you want to compare things compare something that matters more to our situation. Compare what Alex has done in the Chiefs offense to what McNabb did.

Outside of the 2004 season they are pretty well the same. Low 3,000 yard seasons Td passes in the low 20s or high teens Average yards per throw low 7s high 6s.

Why does that matter they both ran Andy Reid's offense.

[N TX Dave]

Well we both have our opinions, but I think many people are placing too much blame on Smith and not enough on the rest of the offense is all. Is Smith one of the top 10 QB in the league NO but I also don't think he is in the bottom 10 either and as I asked Doobs earlier who can we get now or in the last two years for that matter that is better maybe Geno Smith as some on here wanted? There will not be a can't miss QB available at the 18th pick this year. Who is better that we can get?????? Saying our QB is not good we need to replace him is all fine and dandy but if we keep getting a new QB every couple of years hoping that we may get a good one eventually will do nothing but upset us fans more. How many of the top 10 QB have changed teams in the last 3 years other than Manning and he would not even talk to us and was coming off of surgery? What would you have been saying if we had drafted Geno Smith with our first pick? How many starting QB were around when we drafted the last 3 years? I just wish that when we had the first pick a couple of years ago there was a can't miss QB that was available but alas there wasn't. Maybe one of our young QB we have will develop, they haven't yet but who knows.

[Stevie Ray]

Smith was sacked 45 times this year 4th most in the NFL

As for sacks, Manning has never even been sacked 30 times in a season. In fact, he's been sacked an average of only 18 times per season over his career (only 17 per season in Indy) - and that's been irrespective of the numerous players who were on his offensive line.

Manning missed the '11 season in Indy - the same offensive line that allowed an average of 17 sacks per season with Manning, gave up 35 sacks. Meanwhile that same season in Denver, the Broncos offensive line gave up 42 sacks. The following year, after picking up Manning, they gave up exactly half that (21).

An even better example - In '07, Tom Brady was sacked only 21 times; Cassel took over in '08 after Bernard Pollard busted up Brady's knee in game 1 - that same offensive line led the league in sacks given up that season. Coincidence? Well it doesn't stop there ....... because the same offensive line that led the league in sacks in '08 with Cassel, gave up only 16 sacks with Brady back under center in '09.

I say all that to say this - 'sacks given up' is as much a QB stat as it is an offensive line stat; if not moreso.

It's either the pocket skills of the QB, the style of play with the individual QB, or a combination of BOTH that are the primary factor(s) in regards to how many sacks are given up.

Alex Smith is just one of those QBs who is going to take a lot of sacks. Every year of his NFL career, except one, he has taken 40(+) sacks per 16 starts. Are we to conclude that it's simply because his offensive lines have always been insufficient?

To conclude, if we look at the production of Alex Smith in his time in KC, it shouldn't be any surprise as to what we've seen. It shouldn't be a surprise that his offensive line is suspect in pass protection and his receivers are unproductive.

It's the same guy from San Francisco. Alex Smith has always been conservative -- takes the safe throws, utilizes the TE and RB more than the receivers, doesn't work the perimeter routes and stays mainly inside the numbers, takes a lot of sacks, has good escapability ...... which all coalesce in solid completion %, low INTs, and overall below average production in the passing game.

This is who Smith is. This is who Smith has always been. This is what Smith will be going forward - no matter who the Chiefs add to his supporting cast.

[Stevie Ray]

If you want to compare things compare something that matters more to our situation. Compare what Alex has done in the Chiefs offense to what McNabb did.

Yeah but due to rule changes and other ancillary factors, the passing offense in the NFL has steadily progressed since McNabb's prime to now. Besides, a statistical comparison does Smith little justice, IMO. In today's game, Smith's numbers should exceed McNabb's, but that's not what we see.

I'm not trying to wiz in anyone's cheerios when it comes to Smith. I think he's a solid football player overall, but a very mediocre QB.

Perhaps some think more of him than I do because he's a throwback type; maybe it's because he has a wonderful personality; maybe it's because we've been deprived of good QB play for so long that any ray of sunshine hypes us enough to amplify our ideas of what his potential is -- maybe it's a combination of all the above.

I have little confidence that his individual production going forward will be any more than it's been over his entire career - regardless of who is added to the roster as help. I'd even be willing to bet that '13 will be his career best when all is said and done.

You can say that I'm a little pessimistic in that regard; and I guess that would be fair. Just don't take it as hate.

[Eydugstr]

As for sacks, Manning has never even been sacked 30 times in a season. In fact, he's been sacked an average of only 18 times per season over his career (only 17 per season in Indy) - and that's been irrespective of the numerous players who were on his offensive line.

Manning missed the '11 season in Indy - the same offensive line that allowed an average of 17 sacks per season with Manning, gave up 35 sacks. Meanwhile that same season in Denver, the Broncos offensive line gave up 42 sacks. The following year, after picking up Manning, they gave up exactly half that (21).

An even better example - In '07, Tom Brady was sacked only 21 times; Cassel took over in '08 after Bernard Pollard busted up Brady's knee in game 1 - that same offensive line led the league in sacks given up that season. Coincidence? Well it doesn't stop there ....... because the same offensive line that led the league in sacks in '08 with Cassel, gave up only 16 sacks with Brady back under center in '09.

I say all that to say this - 'sacks given up' is as much a QB stat as it is an offensive line stat; if not moreso.

It's either the pocket skills of the QB, the style of play with the individual QB, or a combination of BOTH that are the primary factor(s) in regards to how many sacks are given up.

Alex Smith is just one of those QBs who is going to take a lot of sacks. Every year of his NFL career, except one, he has taken 40(+) sacks per 16 starts. Are we to conclude that it's simply because his offensive lines have always been insufficient?

To conclude, if we look at the production of Alex Smith in his time in KC, it shouldn't be any surprise as to what we've seen. It shouldn't be a surprise that his offensive line is suspect in pass protection and his receivers are unproductive.

It's the same guy from San Francisco. Alex Smith has always been conservative -- takes the safe throws, utilizes the TE and RB more than the receivers, doesn't work the perimeter routes and stays mainly inside the numbers, takes a lot of sacks, has good escapability ...... which all coalesce in solid completion %, low INTs, and overall below average production in the passing game.

This is who Smith is. This is who Smith has always been. This is what Smith will be going forward - no matter who the Chiefs add to his supporting cast.

So all those times the ball hit the WR in the hands or numbers and it came up incomplete, that's just Smith being Smith? No sale.

We need to take a serious chill pill and realize that the Mannings and Bradys don't grow on trees. There's 30 other teams in the NFL that would love to have either as a QB. They do not.

Yes, it's true that the QB's with the quick release get sacked less. But I'd argue that a lot of those guys have their minds made up before the snap of where they're throwing the ball. They throw a lot of yards and TD's, but they also throw a lot of INT's, and very few of them have JC's equivalant in the backfield.

N Tx Dave - To answer a question you posted earlier, about trying to get an answer to "Well, who would YOU rather us have taken??" the new answer (noanswer?) to that is "...I don't have to tell you who I wanted." Translation: "My choice didn't pan out either."

[matthewschiefs]

Yeah but due to rule changes and other ancillary factors, the passing offense in the NFL has steadily progressed since McNabb's prime to now. Besides, a statistical comparison does Smith little justice, IMO. In today's game, Smith's numbers should exceed McNabb's, but that's not what we see.

I'm not trying to wiz in anyone's cheerios when it comes to Smith. I think he's a solid football player overall, but a very mediocre QB.

Perhaps some think more of him than I do because he's a throwback type; maybe it's because he has a wonderful personality; maybe it's because we've been deprived of good QB play for so long that any ray of sunshine hypes us enough to amplify our ideas of what his potential is -- maybe it's a combination of all the above.

I have little confidence that his individual production going forward will be any more than it's been over his entire career - regardless of who is added to the roster as help. I'd even be willing to bet that '13 will be his career best when all is said and done.

You can say that I'm a little pessimistic in that regard; and I guess that would be fair. Just don't take it as hate.

So let me ask you point blank Did you find the WR O line play this season acceptable?

Lets say your right about Alex

My question is this would it be so bad to build around Alex build depth around so that if you are correct about Alex and he just will never get the job done would it be so bad that the next Qb would actually walk into an offense with Depth. What would be so horrible about building that offense and seeing if he can get the job done before we just cast him out? Instead of just casting off anther QB and sticking with the same lackluster WR core and O line. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Before we decided well Alex will never be able to get the job done lets just make yet anther change. Why not put a QB in position to succeed for the first time in almost 10 years.

[Stevie Ray]

I think many people are placing too much blame on Smith and not enough on the rest of the offense is all.

I guess it comes with the territory. I've heard many show adoration for Smith simply based on his W/L record over the past 4 seasons between SF and KC. They're team wins, yet some credit Smith. It works on both ends, I guess.

I personally don't blame Smith. The way I see it, he is what he is.

At the same time, he's a QB with limited pocket skills - which will always reflect poorly on his offensive line. He's also a QB that will under-utilize his receivers.

The result is a mass perception that his offensive line provides poor pass protection, and his receivers are garbage. It's the supporting cast that will get the blame for not being good enough to pick up his slack as a QB - specific to the passing offense. That's just my opinion.

I've done so much research on Smith over the past two years that it isn't even funny. I have plenty of facts to back up my point of view on it.

But like I said, I don't blame him personally. The Chiefs need to improve on the offensive line; they need to get better at WR. I just think a more productive, passing QB goes a long ways in improving both of those areas. I'm also kinda fed up with the sentiment that this is the best we can do for now when it comes to the QB. If we're going to think like that, then why doesn't that same idea apply to the rest of the supporting cast? [rhetorical question not directed at anybody in particular].

[ctchiefsfan]

Stevie Ray....

You make some good arguments and bring some interesting numbers to the table to back them up. My compliments. But the problem I have with your argument is that you're like the guy who is yelling "THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!" but isn't calling the fire department or grabbing a bucket of water.

Alex Smith is NOT Manning, Montana, Brady, Staubach or any one of many truly elite QBs. He hasn't been and he is not going to be.

But WHAT THE HELL SHOULD WE HAVE DONE INSTEAD??? Surely you're not crying in your beer because we didn't pick Geno Smith? Nobody is that stupid.

Reid and Dorsey came to a KC franchise that was a wreck. The GM was an egotistical Nazi. The Head Coach was AT BEST a decent Defensive Coordinator. The QB was almost afraid to walk the streets without an armed guard. We had players shooting themselves in front of coaches. WTF OVER!!!!

So what did Reid and Dorsey do? They traded for a decent veteran QB. Not a superstar, but they at least got Cassel out of town which ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY had to be done. Then they picked up Bray for NOTHING. And then they picked up Murray. In short, they got Alex Smith to keep us competitive while they tried to develop a top tier QB. Oh....and they also got us our first back-to-back winning seasons in a LONG TIME.

Drafting a hotshot QB out of college is NO GUARANTEE of success. Geno Smith is toast. RGIII may be done too. The list of top 5 QB draft picks that turned into busts is longer than the Chiefs list of "retreads" that didn't get us anywhere. And that's a fact.

So instead of just yelling that Alex Smith ain't good enough perhaps you will tell us what Reid and Dorsey should have done differently that would have made us 100% sure to be in the Super Bowl by say 2017?

I'll be waiting for your answer, but I don't expect your arguments to support it will be even half as lucid as your arguments that Alex Smith is simply in the upper end of mediocre.

Is anyone besides myself starting to get a sneaking suspicion that Stevie Ray is simply the 3rd incarnation of MyMan?????

[Stevie Ray]

So all those times the ball hit the WR in the hands or numbers and it came up incomplete, that's just Smith being Smith?

Not at all. I'd say the more feeble your passing offense, the more those instances are amplified. In other words, Smith's receivers can't afford as much to drop balls because their chances are fewer and further between. I haven't checked this stat in a few weeks, but the last I checked, Denver was leading the league in dropped passes.

It's something that every QB has to deal with. It's going to happen.

We need to take a serious chill pill and realize that the Mannings and Bradys don't grow on trees.

There's no doubt about that. I don't think anyone would disagree. I don't think that means we should be content with Alex Smith though.

My motto is: If you don't have a top 10 QB, or a young QB that you're confident can soon develop into a top 10 QB, then your biggest need is QB.

I don't mind the Chiefs bringing Smith, or any other veteran retread QB to KC. My only problem is committing to them. Maybe Daniel, Bray or Murray should be given a legitimate opportunity to compete for the job? Why not draft Teddy Bridgewater when you had the chance? [rhetorical questions not aimed at anyone directly]

It's because they've committed to Smith.

If you're going to boast the 29th ranked passing offense (24th ranked in '13), then why with a young QB that has the potential to develop? What's the point of having a veteran QB if you're going to have a lower tier pass offense? [rhetorical question]

Forgive me if I haven't addressed any of the points you've raised. I'm new here and I'm not very experienced with this type of format. I'm still trying to feel my way around, but I'm doing my best.

[Stevie Ray]

So let me ask you point blank Did you find the WR O line play this season acceptable?

Absolutely not. It'd be mighty hard to accept the WR and O-line play if you're not content with the play of the QB first and foremost. I wasn't satisfied with Trent Green's play in '01 - it would've been awfully tough to be satisfied with his receivers and O-line.

This is kinda my angle on this whole thing - the QB is the catalyst. It's like the age old question: Which comes 1st, the chicken or the egg? Bet on the chicken every time.

As for the question about building up the team around Alex - that's never a bad idea; so long as we're not sacrificing legitimate opportunities to upgrade from Smith in the process.

Why not put a QB in position to succeed for the first time in almost 10 years.

I hope you don't mind me answering that with a question: Do you think it's more likely that in 10 years, Smith hasn't been put in a position to succeed -- or -- Is it more likely that Smith is a middling QB that doesn't possess the talent to utilize his supporting cast to the extent of their abilities?

In other words, if 9 NFL seasons isn't enough to draw conclusions, at what point do we stop thinking that Smith is going to be any more than he has been?