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Thread: Rebuilding the WR

  1. #1
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    Default Rebuilding the WR

    As much as I would like too see Jeremy Maclin he wants to stay in Philly, I doubt we could afford Randall Cobb even if Green Bay let him escape, I would like to see them gut everyone but Albert Wilson, and Jason Avant he provides an awesome teacher for these guys to learn from, De'Rick Rogers, sign Mark Harrison I think he deserves a shot, and build through the draft. We need to get 2-3 receivers
    Dorial Beckham, Ty Montgomery, Jaelen Strong, Rashad Greene, Nelson Agholor, DeVante Parker, Kevin White, Tyler Lockett, Sammie Coates, Justin Hardy, Phillip Dorsett, Stephen Riggs and Deontay Greenberry are all great options we need too draft at least 2 of these guys maybe more. I would grab a good pass catching TE in their as well to line up with Kelce and cut Anthony Fasano

  2. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    After watching him in camp/pre-season, coupled with what he showed when he got his opportunities at the end of the season, I don't know why he wasn't one of the 5-6 WRs on the roster the whole season. It's not as if we had a stable of top notch WRs.

    I guess there's more to it than what meets the eye. I can remember a similar thing happening with Jamaal Charles early in his time here in KC.
    I believe he had an ankle injury late in the pre season and that's why he was off the roster for a bit. After that he had to work his way back up the depth chart.

  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    I'm not judging either by one season, but the part "bolded above" is statistical fact, nonetheless.
    I disagree. Lets compare Matt Cassel 2010 vs Alex Smith 2013.....

    2010...Matt Cassel....games played...15...record 10-5...att=450...comp=262...%=58.2....TD=27...INT=7.. .pass yds=3116...rush yds=125...rush TD=0...total yds=3241...rating = 93

    2013...Alex Smith...games played...15...record 11-4...att=508...comp=308...%=61...TD=23...INT=7...pa ss yds=3313...rush yds=431...rush TD=1...total yds=3744...rating=89.

    Those are the numbers I pulled off WIKI.

    Now you may argue that Alex Smith had the lower passer rating, but lets not kid ourselves.....same number of games played. Alex Smith got 503 total yards more than Cassel in 2010. That is 15.5% more yards. Alex won one more game than Cassel. Alex had a higher completion %. Same number of INTs.

    Cassel did have a higher rating and did score 3 more TDs. Fact.

    But if you are going to call that a better season statistically then you and I have a fundamental disagreement on the meaning of statistics. In my book 1 more win, 15% more yards and a higher completion percentage outweighs 3 more TDs and a higher QB rating every day of the week.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    But if you are going to call that a better season statistically then you and I have a fundamental disagreement on the meaning of statistics. In my book 1 more win, 15% more yards and a higher completion percentage outweighs 3 more TDs and a higher QB rating every day of the week.
    Wins are a total team stat. Using team wins to compare these QBs is trivial at best - particularly when the coaching advantage is so one-sided.

    This adds up to you trumpeting Smith's '13 over Cassel's '10 simply because he was more effective running the ball, but you also have to include the fact that Smith took 50% more sacks as well. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. Personally, I prefer a QB who gets the ball to his playmakers rather than choosing to tuck-n-run.

    An argument can be made for either, but that's the gist of my point. Smith and Cassel are a lot closer in ability than they are apart. Yet, many of the same people who view Smith as a good QB ..... view Cassel as a bum.

    The biggest advantage that Smith has and will have over Cassel in KC - (and even going back to his last couple years in SF) - is the benefit of a competent head coach -- Winning cures many things. There's a very good reason why Smith went from a complete bust over the first 6 years of his NFL career, to at least a respectable QB over his past few years.
    [U][I][B][COLOR=#383838][FONT=Verdana]Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/I][/U]

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    Wins are a total team stat.
    True. But the QB has a lot to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    Using team wins to compare these QBs is trivial at best
    True again. But you ignore the higher completion percentage and 15% more yards that Alex Smith achieved with his arm or legs. Why did you just conveniently ignore facts that didn't comply with your argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    This adds up to you trumpeting Smith's '13 over Cassel's '10
    Yes...because I wanted to point out how utterly false your statement that Cassel in 2010 was better than anything Alex Smith had done. Your statement was false and I pointed it out. The fact remains that your statement was false. In fact, Smith's QB rating in 2014 was better than Cassels in 2010. 93.4 to 93. JUST FACTS. Alex has had a better completion percentage both years he has been in KC than any year Cassel had in KC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    simply because he was more effective running the ball,
    Wrong again sir. Alex had more yards passing in 2013 and a higher completion rate than Cassel in 2010. JUST FACTS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    but you also have to include the fact that Smith took 50% more sacks as well.
    I am not going to check your claims about sacks (despite showing that your Cassel 2010 claims were false) but sacks belong mostly to the O-Line or receivers not getting open....not the QB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. Personally, I prefer a QB who gets the ball to his playmakers rather than choosing to tuck-n-run.
    Agreed. But the sad fact is that Alex's "playmakers" are his backs. Not his wide outs. Just a fact. Give him a somewhat better O-line and wideouts that can gain separation and don't have cement hands and Smith will look like pretty hot ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    An argument can be made for either, but that's the gist of my point. Smith and Cassel are a lot closer in ability than they are apart. Yet, many of the same people who view Smith as a good QB ..... view Cassel as a bum.
    Cassel IS a bum. In 2 years with the Vikings his QB rating is 73.7. In two years with the Chiefs Alex Smith average rating is 91.25.

    Cassel's average with the Chiefs was 76.55. Alex Smith's average with the Chiefs is 91.25.

    YOU claimed Cassel was better than Smith based on QB rating. History has proved that to be crap. Smith's QB rating over the last 2 years is more than 15% better than Cassel at Minnesotta.

    Smiths QB rating in KC is more than 20% better than Cassel's last 2 years in KC.

    Smith's QB rating in 2 years at KC is more than 15% better than Cassels average for 4 years at KC.

    YOU said Cassel was better than Smith. I've destroyed that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Ray View Post
    The biggest advantage that Smith has over Cassel in KC - (and even going back to his last couple years in SF) - is the benefit of a competent head coach -- Winning cures many things. There's a very good reason why Smith went from a complete bust over the first 6 years of his NFL career, to at least a respectable QB over his past few years.
    That is a true statement. Even a great QB will suck donkey dip if he has a lousy coach. But no matter how you slice it, Alex is a much better QB than Cassel can ever dream of being.

    In 10 years as a pro, Cassel has exactly 1 year with a QB rating over 90. Smith has 3 in 10 years.

    3 times as many.

    In 10 years Cassel has a QB rating between 85 and 90 2 times . Smith has the same.

    In ten years Cassel has a QB rating UNDER 71 5 times. That's 50%. Smith only twice.

    Every year Smith has been in KC he has has more passing yards than Cassel did in 2010 and and a higher pass completion percentage than Cassel did in 2010.

    Cassel sucks. Smith is a pretty decent QB. Admit it.
    Last edited by ctchiefsfan; 01-24-2015 at 01:23 AM.

  6. #35
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    Just for ships and grins.....

    Alex has thrown for more than 3,200 yards both years he has been in KC. Cassel NEVER DID in KC and only did so once in New England.

    Cassel has 2 years with more than 3,000 yards passing. Smith has 3.

    Cassel has 1 year with between 2,000 and 3,000 yards passing. Smith has 3.

    In 10 years Smith has 6 years with over 2,000 yard passing. Cassel has 3

    Cassel sucks.

    I've proven it 6 ways from Sunday. Time for you to retract your foolish statement that Cassel's best year was better than anything Smith has done.
    Last edited by ctchiefsfan; 01-24-2015 at 01:40 AM.

  7. #36
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    When you log on and see Smith Vs Cassel debate

    TopekaRoy is my hero!

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    . But you ignore the higher completion percentage and 15% more yards that Alex Smith achieved with his arm or legs. Why did you just conveniently ignore facts that didn't comply with your argument?
    Just because I didn't make a direct reply to every single stat that you referenced doesn't mean that I ignored it. Not all facets of a disagreement are worth pursuing. I summed it all up by stating that a valid argument can be made for either - just as an attempt to move the conversation along.

    Though I still feel that Cassel has had 2 NFL seasons that are better than any 2 seasons that Smith has put together, the overlying focus of my stance is just how comparable they are statistically -- yet some like to pretend that Smith is head and shoulders above.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    because I wanted to point out how utterly false your statement that Cassel in 2010 was better than anything Alex Smith had done.
    Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't make my statement false.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    But the sad fact is that Alex's "playmakers" are his backs. Not his wide outs. Just a fact.
    Don't forget about the TEs. Coincidentally, or NOT, this has been the case throughout Smith's ENTIRE career. I know that you'd hate to think that it's because of him, but give it a try.

    Alex Smith utilizes the TE, RBs and his legs. Why? Because it's safer. This is why he throws so few INTs, and takes so many sacks. Perimeter routes are typically more risky, and Smith's conservative nature is the reason why no WR has ever excelled with him at QB.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    Cassel's average with the Chiefs was 76.55. Alex Smith's average with the Chiefs is 91.25.
    It's very simple. The formula for passer rating is heavily weighted to completion% and TD/INT ratio. Take a more advanced metric like total QBR (which factors in every conceivable factor to playing the position) and you'll see that their respective value to team success is about the same. Smith's career QBR is around 46.2, and Cassel's is around 45.3.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    YOU claimed Cassel was better than Smith based on QB rating.
    No, I didn't. I said that Cassel had 2 better statistical seasons than has Smith, and passer rating was not a basis. Passer rating is antiquated as far as I'm concerned.

    But like I said; gun to my head, I would take Smith over Cassel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    But no matter how you slice it, Alex is a much better QB than Cassel can ever dream of being. Cassel sucks. Smith is a pretty decent QB. Admit it.
    The exact sentiment that I'm targeting. Bullseye!
    [U][I][B][COLOR=#383838][FONT=Verdana]Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/I][/U]

  9. #38
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    I had to pull this out of your post because it is a different debate all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    sacks belong mostly to the O-Line or receivers not getting open....not the QB.
    I disagree, and I'll give you obvious examples why - try to hear me out.

    Despite the revolving door of players around P. Manning and Brady over their careers, they remain two of the least sacked QBs in the game. Perhaps you think that it's just a coincidence, or maybe you think they're just blessed with the good fortune of always having good pass protectors and receivers that get open.

    Me, not so much.

    In 2011 (1 year prior to acquiring P. Manning), the Broncos gave up a total of 42 sacks with the combo of Tebow and Orton under center. Virtually the same offensive line and group of receivers returned in 2012 to play with P. Manning under center, and the Broncos gave up a total of only 21 sacks.

    While P. Manning was in Indy, he was sacked only an average of 17 times per season. The year that he was out with the neck issue in Indy (2011), the same supporting cast saw their QBs sacked a total of 35 times.

    As for Brady - In 2007 Brady was sacked a total of 21 times (4th fewest). Bernard Pollard took out his knee in the very 1st game of 2008, and Matt Cassel took over. The same offensive line and group of receivers that saw Brady sacked so few times previously, saw Matt Cassel sacked 47 times (5th most) the very next season.

    If that's not enough evidence for you; Brady returned for the 2009 season with essentially the same group that Cassel had the year before, and was sacked only 16 times (3rd fewest).

    To further my point -- 8 out of 9 seasons of Alex Smith's career, he has taken 40(+) sacks per 16 starts. In 2011, Smith played behind what was widely considered to be one of the best offensive lines in football, yet he was still sacked 44 times.

    Some QBs will always take more sacks than others due to their pocket skills (or lack thereof), style of play, or a combination of both. Sacks are as much a QB stat as it is an offensive line stat, if not moreso.
    Last edited by Stevie Ray; 01-24-2015 at 05:11 AM.
    [U][I][B][COLOR=#383838][FONT=Verdana]Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/I][/U]

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthewschiefs View Post
    When you log on and see Smith Vs Cassel debate



  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan View Post
    Alex has thrown for more than 3,200 yards both years he has been in KC. Cassel NEVER DID in KC and only did so once in New England.
    Whoa! Try not to set that bar too high.
    [U][I][B][COLOR=#383838][FONT=Verdana]Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/I][/U]

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