Rebuilding the WR

[Chiefs4life24]

As much as I would like too see Jeremy Maclin he wants to stay in Philly, I doubt we could afford Randall Cobb even if Green Bay let him escape, I would like to see them gut everyone but Albert Wilson, and Jason Avant he provides an awesome teacher for these guys to learn from, De'Rick Rogers, sign Mark Harrison I think he deserves a shot, and build through the draft. We need to get 2-3 receivers
Dorial Beckham, Ty Montgomery, Jaelen Strong, Rashad Greene, Nelson Agholor, DeVante Parker, Kevin White, Tyler Lockett, Sammie Coates, Justin Hardy, Phillip Dorsett, Stephen Riggs and Deontay Greenberry are all great options we need too draft at least 2 of these guys maybe more. I would grab a good pass catching TE in their as well to line up with Kelce and cut Anthony Fasano

[Chiefs4life24]

No one will ever see both sides of this and agree. I think before they brought Smith here they should have had the pieces in place before hand. He kinda got set up for failure by not giving him any help. Unfortunately the system we have doesn't lend to down the field throws more than a few times a game. YES HE CAN THROW THE BALL. How many times did he hit a fool in his hands and the WR butter fingered it.

[ctchiefsfan]

Finally someone gets it. The people that support Smith don't love him but he is what we have so why bash him constantly.

Thank you. Most every team has a few legitimate stars. As do our Chiefs. But most teams are mostly made up of guys that simply play pretty decent football. I am a fan of the Chiefs and that means I'm a fan of every player that wears a Chiefs uniform....unless they prove themselves to be utterly incompetent.

If I thought for even 1 second that we had somebody better than Alex sitting on the bench I'd be raising hell yelling for him to get a chance. But right now I don't see any QBs on our roster that in my opinion are clearly better than Smith. So BECAUSE HE IS THE BEST WE HAVE NOW I am a Smith fan and will remain so until he leaves the Chiefs or until we put somebody better in his place.

Stevie Ray frustrates me because he thinks that my support of Alex is because I think Alex is a great QB. I DON'T think Alex is a great QB. I think he is a good QB. Probably in the top 3rd of all NFL QBs. But not terribly high up in that top 3rd. But he is the best we've got right now so I support him.

My only problem with Smith is that IMO we are overpaying him. But then I tend to think a lot of NFL players are overpaid. And as much as I like Houston, whether we franchise him or sign him to a long term deal I'll think he is being overpaid. But just as I support Alex, I will support Houston. Though I surely do wish Alex was as good at QB as Houston is at OLB.

I just don't see the sense in constantly harping on how Alex isn't a great QB. I wish as much as anyone that we had a really amazing QB. I REALLY do. But we don't so they just ain't no point in constantly complaining about it. You play the cards you have to the best of your ability and hope that you get better cards next hand. That's called life. I wish I made $5 million per year. I REALLY do. But I don't and I ain't never going to. So I don't complain about it. Sure....every now and then I'll say something like "DAMN! I wish I had more money." But if I said that as often as Stevie Ray says Alex is no good nobody would talk to me because I'd sound like a broken record.

So.....Alex is a pretty decent QB--no more, no less--and I support him because he is a Chief. And I hope that one day we'll have a QB who is a whole lot better. But I ain't gonna whine because we don't have now what I hope we'll have later.

[ctchiefsfan]

We can use stats to accentuate either point of view. This is why I said several posts ago that a valid argument can be made for either. Can you at least agree with that?

As I said in another post somewhere....once in a while I agree with you. This statement above is almost one of those cases. Old saying....."There are liars. There are damned liars. And there are statistics." So it doesn't take all that much to make an argument for either.

While there is a clear and rightful bias to Smith, we're not talking about QBs that are separated by very much at all. The biggest difference is that Smith has been the beneficiary of better teams and better coaches on the average. Just look at his numbers when he was on bad teams led by inadequate coaches.

When Cassel was doing well (2010) and playing OK (2009), I supported him because he was what we had. Just as I support Alex now. But Cassel EARNED my enmity. In his last 2 years with the Chiefs he proved that he was never going to get us anywhere other than perpetual mediocrity and probably worse. If you compared Alex to almost ANY QB other then Cassel I'd still find your Smith bashing mildly annoying simply bacause of how often you do it. Broken records annoy me. But by suggesting that Alex is no better than Cassel--OF ALL PEOPLE--you annoy the living ship out of me. So no. I'm not going to be a very happy camper when you compare Alex to that cretin from New England who led us to a 23-37 regular season record. Find someone else to compare Alex to, bring it up once a week or less and you you will annoy me and many others here a whole lot less. But most of us here are old time Chiefs fans who in the last 2 years Cassel was here lived through one of the darkest periods in Chiefs history. So by constantly suggesting that Alex is no better than Cassel you're just being a deliberately annoying PITA.

Despite how you (and others) have portrayed it, this isn't a bashfest.

That's because that is how it appears to many of us.

I just don't know how the same folks that are so open and willing to berate the O-line and receivers can be equally as willing to give Smith a pass. I think his supporting cast is being used for cover. JMO

And I just don't know how you can constantly say it all Smith's fault. Smith is what we have for at least the next year or two. NOTHING is going to change that. So we accept it and hope for an improvement in Alex's supporting cast. Because the supporting cast is the ONLY thing that can be improved for at least the next year or two.

And as an aside....I still suspect that you are in fact simply the third incarnation of MMO/MMH.

[N TX Dave]

In that case ...... why bash Bowe constantly? He is what we have.

Why bash the offensive line constantly? Why bash anybody constantly?

I think they all deserve some criticism.

We can support Smith on the field without being in denial about how his brand of quarterbacking affects the rest of the group.

The difference is we can upgrade Bowe and the OL where there is not much chance to upgrade Smith right now. This thread was supposed to be about how to upgrade the WR not bashing the QB yet again. Without suggesting how to upgrade any position and just bashing it is paramount to whining. We all know we need to upgrade Smith but there just is not an elite QB out there at this time and we all can play what if. Hindsight is always better than foresight.

[Eydugstr]

I'm saying that he was being "loved up" (i.e. propped, embraced, revered), and I didn't say that it happened when he arrived in KC.
Of course there was no consensus, even after his 2010 season, but if you don't believe that the reviews of Cassel were generally positive at that time, then you have a selective memory.

That statement is BS. Again, you said "in this town." If not KC, then which town was that? Foxboro? Minneappolis? Cassel was criticized from word go by fans who complained about his inexperience at QB, 60 mill deal, and Pioli's NE nepotism that brought him here. This is coming from a person that actually stuck up for Matt Cassel, because our O-line was complete doo-doo and Pioli pretty much left it that way. This is not selective memory. I'm calling it as I see it. Don't take my word for it, type in "Cassel" in the search box and find out for yourself.

I doubt that management would agree to pay Bowe like a #1 WR if the thought was that the coach's gameplan would reduce his targets. I think that's a stretch. There's nothing in Reid's history that would support that notion.

Reid does spread the ball around more compared to the last few OC's we've had in KC (Brian Dabol, Weis, Gailey) so yes his number of targets are going to go down. Personally I don't think it's Bowe's number of targets is the issue. It's what happens with the opportunities that he's been given. Too many drops. That coupled with off-field incidents, and a huge salary cap hit, make him a big target for being cut.

Changes, sure - it happens every off-season. I'm just saying that an overhaul is a bit extreme, and I don't see it as being a remedy.

If an overhaul is what it took to wake guys up, overhaul it. Reid probably won't completely overhaul the bunch, as he has been very patient with players no matter what. We've already figured out what we've got with Bowe and Avery, it's time to move on and the change of scenery actually might work out for them, too.

The Chiefs current group of receivers aren't without talent. More than anything, they're misused and under-utilized. I don't doubt that there will be changes and at least a couple of new faces brought in, but I doubt that solves the problem. As I've tried to explain, the issue is deeper than the abilities (or lack thereof) of the receivers. That said, attempts to upgrade the position never hurts.

Would happily keep Avant, Wilson & DAT. These three showed either willingness to help the QB out, ability to improve or in DAT's case flat out speed. What have the rest shown us? What have the rest COST us? So yeah I'd say change is coming. I'd love to see us snag two WR's this draft, in the upper four rounds. It's time to give someone else a chance.

[ctchiefsfan]

In that case ...... why bash Bowe constantly? He is what we have.

Why bash the offensive line constantly?

This entire board combined does not bash Bowe or the O-line as much as you do Alex. What you do hear about Bowe is that...

1) He's not earning the money he gets paid.

2) There is a good chance he may become a cap casualty.

3) What you do hear about the O-line is that they need to do better.

Those are all facts. As I have said repeatedly Alex is nothing special, but he is what we have for at the minimum a year or two. Probably at least 3. And it's not like he's terrible. So if changes are going to be made they are going to come from his supporting cast. Meaning mostly WR and O-line. We're not doing too bad at TE and backs. So we need to improve at WR and O-line. If there was a Luck in this year's draft you'd hear a lot of us speculating how we could trade to get him and how we could pay him. But there is no Luck in this year's draft. And there was no Luck in the 2013 draft. So we talk about what we CAN improve this year. Not what we can't.

And just to add a bit of reality.....It's not like improving the O-line and WRs would hurt some amazing QB we might get in the next year or 3. Even you would agree with that.

[Stevie Ray]

No one will ever see both sides of this and agree.

I agree.

I think before they brought Smith here they should have had the pieces in place before hand. He kinda got set up for failure by not giving him any help.

Really? He took over a team with a solid offensive line, a pro bowl caliber WR, and an all-world RB - not to mention the talent that the team had on defense and special teams. He had plenty of help. You don't think he won 11 games by himself, do you?

Unfortunately the system we have doesn't lend to down the field throws more than a few times a game. YES HE CAN THROW THE BALL.

There is nothing about the system that restricts down field throws - no more or less than does any other system. Yes, Smith CAN throw the ball down field -- all NFL QBs can. It's just not his strength; never has been.

[Stevie Ray]

Stevie Ray frustrates me because he thinks that my support of Alex is because I think Alex is a great QB.

You're putting words in my mouth. I take you at your word when you say that you feel that he is a "pretty decent" QB.

Let's just set aside all of the excuses, red herrings, softened positions and qualifiers. Let's just call it what it is -- some of us believe that Alex Smith is actually a good QB, and some of us don't. All of us know that it is possible to win games with him.

I don't necessarily feel that Smith is a bad QB, but I clearly don't rate him as highly as you do. I think he is imminently replaceable, and I don't like the fact that the Chiefs, and a sector of Chiefs fans, are so casually content with committing to mediocrity at the most important position in the organization.

That's my position, and all I've done is try to back that up with stats and history. It's not that I don't support Alex Smith on the field, but I'm not in denial about his shortcoming(s). I see how his brand of quarterbacking limits the impact of the players around him and the effectiveness of the offense as a whole -- which is why I object to the way that his supporting cast is taking the brunt of the blame.

In watching Smith up close and personal for the last 2 seasons, I now see and understand why he was available and why San Francisco wanted to replace him even at a time when they were successful. He strains the potential of the passing game all together. All he did in San Francisco was lead a basement level passing offense year after year. He took a ton of sacks and under-utilized the WR position. So it really should be no surprise when we see the exact same thing taking place in KC; yet here we are blaming everyone else for it.

I'm not out for Smith's head or anything. Besides, with the money they're paying him it's probably not in the cards to have a fair and open competition at the QB position. But as I've said before -- if you're going to bolster a 29th ranked (type) passing offense, what's the point of paying big money to a veteran QB to do that?

Alex Smith is not a bad guy to have around. He'd be ideal as the back-up QB for most any team -- maybe even lead the team for a season (2 if necessary) as a placeholder -- but trying to build your team - much less your franchise - around him is a huge problem, IMO.

[Stevie Ray]

When Cassel was doing well (2010) and playing OK (2009), I supported him because he was what we had. Just as I support Alex now.

That's the noble thing to do, I guess.

It wasn't that I didn't support Cassel on the playing field back then, but I quickly recognized that he wasn't a good QB - even in the face of moderate success. I just felt like the team was making a mistake by committing to him.

The conversations that I'm having now about Smith were much the same when Cassel was doing an "OK job" his first couple of seasons here. I feel like this is a movie I've seen before, several times even, and that's why I take the position that I do. I don't aim to be a wet blanket; I just try to be honest with myself and others in this discussion.

And I just don't know how you can constantly say it all Smith's fault.

Again, putting words in my mouth.

"Football is the ultimate team sport, except the QB is too damn important." - Dick Vermeil.

[Stevie Ray]

The difference is we can upgrade Bowe and the OL where there is not much chance to upgrade Smith right now.

I don't see why not.

Dwayne Bowe is a good football player, and he's still in his prime years. It's not going to be any easier finding a better receiver for his role than it would be for Smith in his. How will we ever know if we're committed to Smith and there is never a fair and open competition for the job?

This thread was supposed to be about how to upgrade the WR not bashing the QB yet again.

I understand that, but my position is that an upgrade at WR will require either a major adjustment by the QB or an upgrade at his position all together. Many of the complaints about the WRs are induced by the guy that is in charge of giving them opportunities to make the plays.

Although I understand that you've grown tired of hearing about Smith, but obviously not so much with the WRs (or O-line for that matter), it's nearly impossible to separate them. If we're just going to talk superficially about WRs we can subtract or add to the roster, it's going to be a pretty short conversation. If you read the 1st post I made to this thread, I said nothing about Smith. It just doesn't go very far.