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Thread: Growing pains

  1. #1
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    Default Growing pains


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    There was quiet optimism among Chiefs fans this season with the big draft we had and the fact that they were handing the reigns over to Croyle and he was going to be THE GUY this season. Even with Croyle as the QB this season, everyone knew there was a chance that this season could be rough with as many rookies and 2nd or 3rd year players as we had on this team.

    There is something to be said for building with and playing a young team. I'm sure i don't have to go over the benefits, but nobody seems to be patient enough to go thru some of the growing pains that come along with playing a young team. I've been right there with y'all this decade. I've seen us have a really good team in 2003 and have watched us get increasingly worse since then. I know every problem this team has. I get it.



    I've seen it written a lot here that "major changes" need to happen on this team. But there's a problem with that logic, you can't get much more major than what they did this past offseason. Almost three quarters of this entire team is composed of players with less than 3 years experience. It's going to take some seasoning for these guys to play like a NFL team.

    I'm guessing the "major changes" you are referring to are management. This whole mess is Peterson's fault. As the GM, you should never let your team get as old as it was the last two seasons. You should've drafted players who could eventually replace the guys who would be retiring. The problems with the Oline have nothing to do with the head coach. That problem lies at the feet of the GM.

    No team should ever be in the position where two pro bowl linemen retire without anybody behind them pushing for playing time.

    The failure of this team doesn't lie with the current head coach. This head coach is actually bringing some really good talent from the draft and rookie FA pool. If it's a head coach that you want to blame, it has to be Vermeil. Some of you may not understand this, but if you are blaming Herm for his personnel decisions, it's only fair to blame Vermeil for his.

    I personally blame Vermeil for the hole the Chiefs currently find themselves in, aside from Peterson. Peterson is the type of GM who listens to his head coach when it comes to building his teams. You can see this evident by how good the teams were when Marty was here. Marty had a major say in personnel decisions. So did Vermeil. Vermeil made moves all over the place to bring in Roaf, Holmes, etc.

    But, by the same token, Vermeil had a total of 38 draft picks from his time here in Kansas City:

    2005
    Player
    1-LB Derrick Johnson (still with the team)
    3 P Dustin Colquitt (still with the team)
    4 WR Craphonso Thorpe (cut) (cut from chiefs 2005)
    5 LB Boomer Grigsby (cut) (2007)
    5 CB Alphonso Hodge (cut) (2006)
    6 T Will Svitek (still with the team)
    6 DE Khari Long (cut) (2005)
    7 QB James Kilian (cut) (2006)
    7 T Jeremy Parquet (Steelers DEV) (2005)

    2004
    Player
    2 DT Junior Siavii (cut) (2005)
    2 TE Kris Wilson (Carolina backup) (2007)
    3 LB Keyaron Fox (Pittsburgh backup) (2007)
    4 WR Samie Parker (cut) (2007)
    4 DE Jared Allen (Minnesota Starter) (Traded 2008)
    6 WR Jeris McIntyre (cut) (2005)
    7 T Kevin Sampson (cut) (2006)

    2003
    Player
    1 RB Larry Johnson (still with the team starter)
    2 LB Kawika Mitchell (Buffalo starter) (2006)
    3 DB Julian Battle (cut) (2004)
    4 T Brett Williams (cut) (2004)
    5 T Jordan Black (cut) (2006)
    6 DE Jimmy Wilkerson (Tampa backup) (2007)
    7 DT Montique Sharpe (cut) (2005)
    7 S Willie Pile (cut) (2004)

    2002
    Player
    1 DT Ryan Sims (Tampa backup) (traded 2006)
    2 DT Eddie Freeman (cut) (2004)
    4 RB Omar Easy (cut) (2004)
    5 LB Scott Fujita (New Orleans starter) (2004)
    7 LB Maurice Rodriguez (cut) (2002)

    2001
    Player
    3 DT Eric Downing (cut) (2003)
    3 WR Marvin Minnis (cut) (2002)
    4 DE Monty Beisel (Arizona backup) (2004)
    4 RB George Layne (cut) (2002)
    5 TE Billy Baber (cut) (2003)
    5 RB Derrick Blaylock (cut) (2004)
    6 G Alex Sulfsted (cut) (2001)
    7 DB Shaunard Harts (cut) (2004)
    7 DT Terdell Sands (Oakland backup) (2001)

    *(cut)-means they are no longer in the NFL
    *(2001-07) indicates the year they were cut by the Chiefs

    We see that only four of those players are actually still with the team. A further look into Vermeil's talent assessment shows that not only did they not make or stay with the Chiefs' team, MOST of them are no longer still in the league. 24/38 draft picks allotted to Dick Vermeil and Chiefs when he was a head coach were used on players who are no longer in the NFL. Of the 14 who are still in the league, six of them are still starters and again, only four of them are still with the team.

    If you go back and look at all those picks, very few of them lasted two years with the Chiefs. If you look at Herm Edward's first draft with the Chiefs in 2006, all but one of his seven draft picks are still with the team and six of them are starters or playing VERY prominent roles on the team. Compare that with Vermeil's first draft when all but three of his picks had been cut before his third year with the team.

    Also, don't forget that while Vermeil was building his juggernaut of an offense, his defense was a complete joke and didn't stop the Colts even once in their one playoff game in the Vermeil era.

    Imagine how much better this team would've been if the Chiefs could've had just one third of those 38 picks to still be on the team for the past few years.

    While, yes, the Chiefs probably should have drafted some O-linemen instead of maybe Hali or Bowe or Pollard, etc... you have to again remember that this defense was dead last in the league and the offense was still at the very least, respectable when Herm was hired. His first priority was to fix the defense. Other than MLB or perhaps maybe one CB spot, the defense is just about completely rebuilt.

    It always makes me laugh when i hear people say Herm doesn't care about offense when the guy has gone out and drafted more offensive players than defensive ones since he's been here. The count is 15/11. Look it up.

    I know this is frustrating. But you can only do so much with young players. The fact that we don't have a QB to lead this team doesn't help matters either. Everyone is still freakin out about the O-line too. If you look at that left side and even the center, those guys are pretty stout. If you watch that side of the line, those guys are doing a hell of a job over there. I know it looks like guys are pouring thru the line, but that's because teams are blitzing and bringing more guys than we have to block them.

    The reason it's so successful is because we have young QB's who don't know what to do with that kind of pressure coming down on them and then they make mistakes with the ball or the rookie RBs make mistakes in coverage. Teams don't blitz this much against experienced teams who know how to exploit the blitz. (see Petyon Manning)

    These are all growing pains. These are things that have to be endured if we want to build a long term contender and not some flash in the pan, one year wonder like what Vermeil gave us.

    Just take a breath and look to the future. The Chiefs, believe it or not, are on the right path. Just know that good things are coming. I think Herm Edwards knows how to recognize talent and is building this team the right way.

    Like i said before, i lay the blame firmly on Carl Peterson's shoulders. It is his responsibility to grow this team despite what the head coach may want. A hit rate of 6 for 38 is not the mark of a successful GM. I think he should remain as V.P. of operations because he has grown football in KC over the last 20 years, but he should no longer be the GM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwubmychiefs View Post
    ok that is a pretty fair assessment. I still do not understand Herm Edward's gameplan. I think we need to run a "normal" offense. Not a run, run, pass, punt failing offense that gives us little chance to score points and to win.

    I cannot argue his draft choices though.
    He doesn't have the personnel to run a "normal" offense right now. Hell, the guy doesn't even have a QB. It still has nothing to do with the play calling.

    I mean, i don't think we should be running dives every play, but there's little else we can do. If the Chiefs started throwing the ball over the place, it will end up as sacks because the other team is constantly bringing the house, or a pick because the young or statuesque QBs back there can't make good decisions under pressure. There are very few drawbacks for the defense bringing more players than the Chiefs can block because either A: They're going to run LJ or B: They're going to get to the QB or make him make a bad decision.

    Right now, the coaching staff's hands are tied because of the personnel on the field... and that doesn't necessarily mean the O-line. Right now, the defenses aren't playing against a QB that can make them pay for the blitzes they are running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwubmychiefs View Post
    this is the point where I disagree with you. I think Herm throughout his career has always ran a game losing game plan.

    I think Thigpen has time to throw, especially when he rolls out of the pocket to buy him extra time.

    Our O line is a little bit better than last year at least. Thigpen is at least able to move outside the pocket. Like I said in an earlier post, I think we need to live and die by Thigpen and get him throwing...ON FIRST DOWN! TO TONY...OR TO BOWE.

    GET LJ OUT OF HERE. He is a bad apple and a virus that the team needs to not catch.

    We need to run a risky gameplan, not this nasty, ugly conservative plan that herm has run throught his entire career, not just when he first got to kc.
    i remember well what the game looked like last year when they tried to open the offense up. it resulted in a 41-7 loss to the Denver Broncos. What about the guys on offense (particularly the QBs) makes you think they are capable of running a more complex offense? Hell, even the package Brodie was going to run was pretty basic. These guys don't have the skills to read complex defense and blitz schemes yet and will continue to make REALLY poor decisions.

    If you looked at the passes completed by Thig today, there were all timing patterns. They weren't progressive reads. Hell, the guy even almost had a screen picked off because he just runs the play as its called. How many times did you see him call an audible? not many if at all.

    There is a very basic package that Thig can run as the #3 QB. That's why Herm didn't want him to start this game. He said in his press conferences that he didn't have time to prepare and it wouldn't be fair to him. He was right. But Huard is such a non-athlete, Herm didn't really have a choice.

    I'm just sayin, this isn't a personnel package that can run plays to perfection like we saw just a few years ago. Just because they're wearing red, doesn't mean they're automatically great football players yet. it's gonna take a couple years.

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    If what the OP said is true of Carl Peterson leaving it up to the head coach on player personel issues, then what the hell is his role? Sounds to me like he's laughing all the way to the bank, since the GM on most teams have a big role in that process....IMO, after three years of rebuilding (and this is his third year) there should be some level of improvement, now I'm not saying we should be the number one seed in the AFC post season, but at least show signs of getting this team in the neighborhood of 8-8...My evaluation of the first two games, first being against a team with a qb that has 0 starts in regular season games (we lost that) and losing our home opener to a bad team playing one dimensional offence....does'nt look like we'll get anywhere near 500...Thats my beef...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
    If what the OP said is true of Carl Peterson leaving it up to the head coach on player personel issues, then what the hell is his role? Sounds to me like he's laughing all the way to the bank, since the GM on most teams have a big role in that process....IMO, after three years of rebuilding (and this is his third year) there should be some level of improvement, now I'm not saying we should be the number one seed in the AFC post season, but at least show signs of getting this team in the neighborhood of 8-8...My evaluation of the first two games, first being against a team with a qb that has 0 starts in regular season games (we lost that) and losing our home opener to a bad team playing one dimensional offence....does'nt look like we'll get anywhere near 500...Thats my beef...
    We had 5 shots to tie the game from the five against the Patriots with our backup QB. Bowe dropped two passes and Huard just sucked on most of those passes. That game was not that bad... but we played most of that game with Croyle under center.

    Now, we don't have Croyle. People seem to think this offense was built just to have anyone step in and be successful at the QB position. The offense was built around what Croyle can do best at the QB position. That was the primary reason they went with Thigpen today against the Raiders. That offense isn't suited for Huard. It's unfair to ask him to perform in a rollout style offense. He's not that kind of QB.

    Before i start evaluating this team, I need to see Croyle under center. HE is the guy this entire offense is built around. That will leave us with maybe 12 games left to evaluate the team. I want to see how this team performs when Brodie is back under center before i start jumping conclusions about this team.

    A QB is a big part of a pro football team. Most teams who don't have answers at the QB positions don't do too well. Things are just compounded when you have a team as young as the Chiefs.

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    I've gotta tell you. I think the Chiefs win that game if Croyle is under center. I don't think the Chiefs punt nearly that many times. The INTs might be the same, but i think the Chiefs at the very least, turn some of those punts into field goals and keep the defense off the field which helps them perform better... especially against the run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texaschief View Post
    We had 5 shots to tie the game from the five against the Patriots with our backup QB. Bowe dropped two passes and Huard just sucked on most of those passes. That game was not that bad... but we played most of that game with Croyle under center.

    Now, we don't have Croyle. People seem to think this offense was built just to have anyone step in and be successful at the QB position. The offense was built around what Croyle can do best at the QB position. That was the primary reason they went with Thigpen today against the Raiders. That offense isn't suited for Huard. It's unfair to ask him to perform in a rollout style offense. He's not that kind of QB.

    Before i start evaluating this team, I need to see Croyle under center. HE is the guy this entire offense is built around. That will leave us with maybe 12 games left to evaluate the team. I want to see how this team performs when Brodie is back under center before i start jumping conclusions about this team.

    A QB is a big part of a pro football team. Most teams who don't have answers at the QB positions don't do too well. Things are just compounded when you have a team as young as the Chiefs.
    Its because of Croyle's lack of good decision making that led to his separated shoulder....If you look at the game film you will notice that the Patriots overloaded one side with two blitzers and believe me, NE did not disguise it....There was one running back to block and only could engage one blitzer, and guess what, the other blitzer ran in unblocked and blasted him, now would'nt most qb's be able to read the defence before pre-snap, especially a formation that was'nt disguising it's blitz.....He clearly should have audibled out of that play or called time out....That was poor judgement on his part..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
    Its because of Croyle's lack of good decision making that led to his separated shoulder....If you look at the game film you will notice that the Patriots overloaded one side with two blitzers and believe me, NE did not disguise it....There was one running back to block and only could engage one blitzer, and guess what, the other blitzer ran in unblocked and blasted him, now would'nt most qb's be able to read the defence before pre-snap, especially a formation that was'nt disguising it's blitz.....He clearly should have audibled out of that play or called time out....That was poor judgement on his part..
    That's was drives me nuts. It's not hard to tell if a team is blitzing, yet our QBs can't seem to tell for the life of them! They finally get the ability to call audibles, and they don't even use it when they need too.
    C:\Users\Master Sin\Desktop\thumb_pl_180492.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
    Its because of Croyle's lack of good decision making that led to his separated shoulder....If you look at the game film you will notice that the Patriots overloaded one side with two blitzers and believe me, NE did not disguise it....There was one running back to block and only could engage one blitzer, and guess what, the other blitzer ran in unblocked and blasted him, now would'nt most qb's be able to read the defence before pre-snap, especially a formation that was'nt disguising it's blitz.....He clearly should have audibled out of that play or called time out....That was poor judgement on his part..
    but.... BUT... he's the best one we've got right now.

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    It's at times like this when leaders, and future stars, are going to need to step up. They need to handle adversity and challenges like the paid professionals they are. These guys are in the NFL, whcih means they can play some football...hard to over come incompetent coaching though. I would hope that this is the worst the team can get, rock bottom to speak, so there is no where to go but up. I still have a strong dislike for HERM and CP!!!!!!!

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