Sounds like we have a new QB !

[YZILLA]

My pick for QB to pick up since Croyle went down is about to come true it seems barring a physical . heres the link :

http://www.bobgretz.com/

[Darth CarlSatan]

Originally Posted by Darth CarlSatan
Alright Genius; you got it:

No excuses here today, let's get right in. In fact, I say let's throw every excuse right out the window.

Since we're talking QB's and pass protection, how does "opening up holes" factor in to this?

Because we are talking about o-line quality. Watch some time. You can see the o-linemen trying to open running lanes.

And again, this has to do with passing HOW???

I never said the line was great at opening holes. But to say the team is incapable of "addressing the O-Line properly" is a no-win debate with you.

How do you figure? This is your first discussion with me on the matter, and you have already given up?

When you said "throw excuses out the window" di you mean so you could catch them and immediately use them?

Saying something is a 'no-win' debate sounds like the frontline of all excuses to me.

I don't need to know you or anyone else personally to make my point on this; I've been listening to this same complaint, every season, for 12 years.


Of the five starting positions, we had one secured. The team added one through the draft, and none from free agency. (No, I don't count anything past the fourth round of the draft, and I don't count any of the waiver-wire garbage that mediocre teams have scraped off their boot as anything either.)

If that is how you address starting positions on an NFL football team, then you have no clue.

(For the record, that is how Herm addressed it, and he does have no clue.)

Which free agents should we have picked up? Was there any real talent to be had? I'll concede the waiver point, but since I( or everyone else for that matter )can't decipher Herm Edwards, I really can't give you the kind of answer you're looking for, except to say that if they're committed to a "youth movement", why are you gonna' pull a "Dick Vermeil" and draft / free-agent for today?
Why are you gonna' bring in 3 year and up used legs? Do you know how many leg surgeries NFL linemen average in their careers? 10 or MORE.
If there's one position on a football team where youth will be served at the same level as experience; the NFL Lineman is IT.

Should we have gone to the 08 draft and used every Ace Card to acquire Offensive Linemen? And if we had, would you now be 100% satisfied because of it?


Exaggeration is yet another excuse. Instead of actually using some common sense, you just act like nothing would ever be good enough for me, and throw your e-arms in the air in frustraion? Stop it! Act like a man.

See last reply.

No, no you wouldn't.

Here is another brilliant debate tactic. Assure me that you know me better than I know myself, and that I would never accept anything.

You're right; I have NO idea what Chiefs fans think, as they never express their opinions. And, because you are an island and isolated from the rest of the fan base, it's wrong for me to assume that I might know what you makes you tick.
:rolleyes:

You and a thousand other people would be moaning and groaning about the vast amounts of swiss cheese in the defense and special teams.

I, and countless others, already are 'moaning and groaning' about those issues.

Tell me something I DON'T know. Nonetheless, a fact is a fact, and the overall "roundness" of the defense would be in much sorrier state than it is now.

The key factor being Swiss Cheese; IT WAS EVERYWHERE. We had to spread the acquisition around, and I think "Dumb and Dumber" did a pretty fly job of making it happen.

Wait a second. I watched a pretty decent defense, for most of last season. And I watche dthe worst offense in the NFL. (Special teams too, but that is late-round stuff.)
So are you saying that we should have kept more Vets? It doesn't matter; last year is dead and gone.
So understanding that, let us keep the debate within the paradigm we find ourselves:
Say it with me; "Youth Movement".
One more time; "Youth Movement".
Point starting to sink in, yes?
And just for the record; I watched a defense that just gave up 100% after the loss to Green Bay at Arrowhead.

If we're going to complain about the "lack of push/lack of domination" on Our Lines, let's complain about 31 million dollars that could have been used to address this.

Read around new guy. I do. But that is no excuse for ignore three starting positions on the offesne, not to mention several depth positions.

Depth Positions or Offensive Line; where are we going here? Are we going to tack on new subjects to this debate on a whim, or are we sticking with program?

But to the matter at hand, the average "safety time before getting sacked/having to scramble" in the pocket is 2.5 to three seconds. You're going to tell me that our line can't manage THAT?!

BS! If that were the average then noone would pass, and we would be a whole lot better than we are. Don't make-up numbers. Do some research on the subject. I don't deal well with others' imagination. And the half-second difference between two and a half, to three is a s***load, when we are talking about finding an open reciever.

I'll subtract the .5 and concede to you one more FULL second( and keep in mind I'm talking about having your entire person firmly planted in one spot after coming off the snap), anything after that; you'd better hop back on Mr. Rodgers Trolley, and ride your butt on out of the Land Of Make-Believe.

Or, is it the receivers? Orrrrrr......
Is it this franchise's Ultra Uber-Long History of being either to cheap to pull the trigger, or too stupid to evaluate talent at the position?

Survey SAYS!???:
"Door number two please"...
"CORRECT"!
If Quinn Gray turns out to be a flop, it won't suprise me one bit.
BUT...
If he turns out to be an Uber-Stud; you can bet your a** it was pure happenstance.

I've seen this scenario before. Two Chiefs Quarterbacks, one O-Line.

I'm gonna guess that that was a better o-line.

It sure was.
That said, regardless of that lines talent or the lack thereof, two different Quarterbacks played behind it; one was a producer( which we so wisely p*ssed away ), and one was not( which of course we kept. )
And that's what this entire debate comes down to; who has the raw skill and drive to make things happen, even in the worst of situations.

Now; I generally choose Dr. Pepper to go with my Crow, but Coca Cola works great too. I'm gonna' run to the fridge real quick and get you a bottle.
I do prefer being a gracious winner...


QB number 1 struggles for wins at the beginning of the season and eventually ends up on the bench with an injury.
QB number 2 steps in, lights a fire under everyone's a**, and steers his team to 1st-round, home field advantage in the Playoffs.

[jtandcrew]

OK, I read about 4 posts of this thread. It isnt going to matter what arm strength he has. If you remember right Montana didnt have good arm strength but he was accurate. Now, before everyone staerts blasting me, I havent seen the kid play yet. Im just saying dont rule out anything. Brady was, what? A 6th round pick? Montana was what? Dawson was what? Elway was what? Kelly was what? Marino was what? The reason im asking is I dont remeber for 1. Plus im sure someone in thi8s grear QB group was a later pick than the 3rd round except when we chose Blacklidge (Which i cant remember what pick he was) Im just saying we need to look into more background rather than pick status.

[kcchiefs4life]

I think the main thing here is simple. We all just want to see our chiefs win. I mean come on, we got destroyed a couple times this year.

This thread isn't about arguing or slamming other people, its people venting because seriously NEWS FLASH.....we DO suck this year.

I am excited about Grey coming into KC because it would be nice to see us at least contend with another teams, not just get wasted out there. I guess you have to look at it as a move in the direction of at least getting a QB who can throw the ball.

I am coming to the KC/bucs game and I just want to see the chiefs that I know/love play well!

[jtandcrew]

I think the main thing here is simple. We all just want to see our chiefs win. I mean come on, we got destroyed a couple times this year.

This thread isn't about arguing or slamming other people, its people venting because seriously NEWS FLASH.....we DO suck this year.

I am excited about Grey coming into KC because it would be nice to see us at least contend with another teams, not just get wasted out there. I guess you have to look at it as a move in the direction of at least getting a QB who can throw the ball.

I am coming to the KC/bucs game and I just want to see the chiefs that I know/love play well!

Im always excited to see the Chiefs play! Grey for 1? Ill be excited when he gets into a game! Right now im more excited to see what Thigpen can do as he is our only option!

[chief31]

Originally Posted by Darth CarlSatan
Alright Genius; you got it:


Because we are talking about o-line quality. Watch some time. You can see the o-linemen trying to open running lanes.

And again, this has to do with passing HOW???

It has to do with blocking. That's what O-linemen do. Well, not here they don't.

I never said the line was great at opening holes. But to say the team is incapable of "addressing the O-Line properly" is a no-win debate with you.

How do you figure? This is your first discussion with me on the matter, and you have already given up?

When you said "throw excuses out the window" di you mean so you could catch them and immediately use them?

Saying something is a 'no-win' debate sounds like the frontline of all excuses to me.

I don't need to know you or anyone else personally to make my point on this; I've been listening to this same complaint, every season, for 12 years.

Then you have been listening to retards. I was ecstatic about the Roaf, Shields days, and also loved the Alt, Szott days too. I have been complaining about the o-line since Herm, "I am gonna ruin as many QB careers as I can" Edwards arrived here.


Of the five starting positions, we had one secured. The team added one through the draft, and none from free agency. (No, I don't count anything past the fourth round of the draft, and I don't count any of the waiver-wire garbage that mediocre teams have scraped off their boot as anything either.)

If that is how you address starting positions on an NFL football team, then you have no clue.

(For the record, that is how Herm addressed it, and he does have no clue.)

Which free agents should we have picked up?

Max Starks, Mike Gandy, Eric Steinbach, Jeremy Newberry, Kris Dielman, Jason Fabini... just to name what I can remember.




Was there any real talent to be had?

I wasn't even going to go there, but... Ryan Lilja and Alan Faneca were available. But I wasn't even asking for that serious of a commitment.

I'll concede the waiver point, but since I( or everyone else for that matter )can't decipher Herm Edwards, I really can't give you the kind of answer you're looking for, except to say that if they're committed to a "youth movement", why are you gonna' pull a "Dick Vermeil" and draft / free-agent for today?
Why are you gonna' bring in 3 year and up used legs?

To keep your young QB healthy. Think.

Do you know how many leg surgeries NFL linemen average in their careers? 10 or MORE.

Are you going to back-up these numbers? Or are you just making s*** up as you go again?

If there's one position on a football team where youth will be served at the same level as experience; the NFL Lineman is IT.

Can't put a price on experience, when you need to keep your QB on his feet.

Should we have gone to the 08 draft and used every Ace Card to acquire Offensive Linemen?


Exaggeration is yet another excuse. Instead of actually using some common sense, you just act like nothing would ever be good enough for me, and throw your e-arms in the air in frustraion? Stop it! Act like a man.

See last reply.

There was nothing there.

Here is another brilliant debate tactic. Assure me that you know me better than I know myself, and that I would never accept anything.

You're right; I have NO idea what Chiefs fans think, as they never express their opinions.

I am not Chiefs fans. I am Chief31. Try to keep the discussion here. If you want to argue with other Chiefs fans, then you can. But this one is special. It's ours. Mine and yours together. :character00100:

And, because you are an island and isolated from the rest of the fan base, it's wrong for me to assume that I might know what you makes you tick.
:rolleyes:

Now, what do they say about assuming? Yes. that is wrong. I am not shoving you into some Herm-loving camp, so don't throw me into some always with the same problem camp.

I, and countless others, already are 'moaning and groaning' about those issues.

Tell me something I DON'T know. Nonetheless, a fact is a fact, and the overall "roundness" of the defense would be in much sorrier state than it is now.

Keep Jared Allen, and that isn't so.



Wait a second. I watched a pretty decent defense, for most of last season. And I watche dthe worst offense in the NFL. (Special teams too, but that is late-round stuff.)
So are you saying that we should have kept more Vets? It doesn't matter; last year is dead and gone.
So understanding that, let us keep the debate within the paradigm we find ourselves:
Say it with me; "Youth Movement".
One more time; "Youth Movement".
Point starting to sink in, yes?

So, you just change the whole purpose of the discussion whenever you are getting Pwned? Drunk Hillbilly? Is that you?

The point of the discussion is judging a QB who has no protection, caused by poor offensive line play.

Since we're talking QB's and pass protection

See? So let's just stick with that for now. If you want to move on to the "youth movement" discussion after this one, I'm with you.

And just for the record; I watched a defense that just gave up 100% after the loss to Green Bay at Arrowhead.

Me too. They played pretty well, when they thought they were actually there for a reason.

Read around new guy. I do. But that is no excuse for ignore three starting positions on the offesne, not to mention several depth positions.

Depth Positions or Offensive Line; where are we going here? Are we going to tack on new subjects to this debate on a whim, or are we sticking with program?

I didn't mean to make it seem so difficult for you. That would be depth on the offensive line. Whenever you get lost like that, just tell yourself

Since we're talking QB's and pass protection

. That might help you to stay on-topic.

But to the matter at hand, the average "safety time before getting sacked/having to scramble" in the pocket is 2.5 to three seconds.

BS! If that were the average then noone would pass, and we would be a whole lot better than we are. Don't make-up numbers. Do some research on the subject. I don't deal well with others' imagination. And the half-second difference between two and a half, to three is a s***load, when we are talking about finding an open reciever.

I'll subtract the .5 and concede to you one more FULL second( and keep in mind I'm talking about having your entire person firmly planted in one spot after coming off the snap), anything after that; you'd better hop back on Mr. Rodgers Trolley, and ride your butt on out of the Land Of Make-Believe.

The Land of Make believe. Like where you get your numbers? Granting a mis-calculation, then covering it with more dreamed-up numbers doesn't accomplish anything.

If Quinn Gray turns out to be a flop, it won't suprise me one bit.

I've seen this scenario before. Two Chiefs Quarterbacks, one O-Line.

I'm gonna guess that that was a better o-line.

It sure was.
That said, regardless of that lines talent or the lack thereof, two different Quarterbacks played behind it; one was a producer( which we so wisely p*ssed away ), and one was not( which of course we kept. )

So, what you are saying is that it is reasonable to judge a QB when they have protection? I agree in full.

And that's what this entire debate comes down to; who has the raw skill and drive to make things happen, even in the worst of situations.

But that wasn't the "worst situation". That was a good situation. Having the time to make reads, and go through regular progression is a good situation. Certainly not the worst.

Now; I generally choose Dr. Pepper to go with my Crow, but Coca Cola works great too. I'm gonna' run to the fridge real quick and get you a bottle.
I do prefer being a gracious winner...

I will repeat the purpose of the discussion for you.

Since we're talking QB's and pass protection

And, just for clarity, I am the one who says that poor protection will get you poor QB play from just about any QB. You....seem to disagree.

[Darth CarlSatan]

I will repeat the purpose of the discussion for you.

And, just for clarity, I am the one who says that poor protection will get you poor QB play from just about any QB. You....seem to disagree.

I'm glad it took you only 24 + hours to come up with that in-depth response, and a response that in at least two instances look like they were haphazardly committed to this debate as casually as the European Country Lords of old used to throw dinner bones over their shoulders to the dogs at the hearth.
I promise I'll try my best to put my response together in at least half that time, but it looks like I'm going to have to prepare a full-blown media presentation to make you see the light.
Until then,
DCS.

[chief31]

I'm glad it took you only 24 + hours to come up with that in-depth response, and a response that in at least two instances look like they were haphazardly committed to this debate as casually as the European Country Lords of old used to throw dinner bones over their shoulders to the dogs at the hearth.
I promise I'll try my best to put my response together in at least half that time, but it looks like I'm going to have to prepare a full-blown media presentation to make you see the light.
Until then,
DCS.

Colorful I will give you that. Although it just tends to come out as babbling, when it takes that long to get to the point.

But, again, you're assuming. I actually had it done about twenty hours ago, but my PC at work doesn't let me copy/paste from a reply draft, and signs me out, as I am typing. So I often lose entire posts like that.

Regardless, it's a BB, not an IM. Rather I get to you immediately, or in a day or two, the result is the same.

[Darth CarlSatan]

Colorful I will give you that. Although it just tends to come out as babbling, when it takes that long to get to the point.

But, again, you're assuming. I actually had it done about twenty hours ago, but my PC at work doesn't let me copy/paste from a reply draft, and signs me out, as I am typing. So I often lose entire posts like that.

Regardless, it's a BB, not an IM. Rather I get to you immediately, or in a day or two, the result is the same.

And, just for clarity, I am the one who says that poor protection will get you poor QB play from just about any QB. You....seem to disagree.

Very well then; it is obvious that we are not debating the same subject.
I am stating that a great QB will get better results( not incremental, but not leaps and bounds either )behind the same line as a Carl Peterson yard-sale pick me up.
In MY debate, the line itself is static; the results of the QB behind it are what's in question.

The other point, and what started all of this to begin with, is that there are those who are calling for the Chiefs to completely abandon the idea of using the 2009 draft and the strategic position we will once again have in it( sadly ),to pick up a LEGITIMATE understudy at the Quarterback position.

Now; I just got done looking at Stafford's overall college stats. And to be honest, the film looks better than the numbers.
I plan to spend a good portion of my free time looking under every stone to try and get a clear picture of who we might have to choose from.
And if there really are no prospects to be had, then so be it; fill this roster top to bottom with Linemen and at least ONE OLB that can replace the utterly pathetic Pat Thomas. I'm not ready to give up on DJ just yet because I'm a firm believer that he, DeMorrio, and Morgan have what it takes when THEY'RE the ones on the job.
The Denver game is stone-cold solid proof of this, and I will broker NO GRUFF to the contrary.
We can save some cap space by putting Herb Taylor to work as well. Albert went out, Herb came in, and he had a great game. Let us( as I stated in a different thread where 'Pawnshop' and I concurred brilliance )establish a 'Meritocracy' ala College Ball( since we're in a "Youth Movement" anyway )whereby those who can play get to PLAY, and ditch the deadweight.

But understand THIS:

We...Have...NO...TOOLS in the Quarterback department. Period. Perhaps upcoming Quarterback #2,364-plus change just might be the odds-breaker, but I think we both know better.
This franchise has had a grand total of three genuine performers in it's 40+year history. One of which was a complete no-brainer that a high school coach could have picked from a thousand miles away, and known great results would be the outcome.
Now if you want to make Trent Green number 4, be my guest. But I never saw a level of play out of that guy that made me want to walk around with his jersey on. And even if you do; that's STILL one suck-a** grand total.
Now maybe where you and I disagree is this notion that you could put Thigpen behind the vintage Pittsburg "Iron Curtain", and he becomes Mr. All World.
Bullsh*t.
Talent is as talent does, and baby; he AIN'T got it.
So my main point is that perhaps it just might be time to break the chain of stupidity.

So draft great linemen, draft great Linebackers, and draft a new Waterboy if it tickles your 'naughty bits'.
But when THAT is accomplished, what's say we draft someone great to LEAD THEM.
(as we currently have no one).

[Darth CarlSatan]

And one more thing:
Time is of the essence. If we can't get a contender this draft, we'll probably have to wait until the end of the 2010 season to do so.
I say this because I want NO ONE to live under the dillusion that Bradford or McCoy have something to offer the Chiefs; they don't.

[chief31]

Very well then; it is obvious that we are not debating the same subject.
I am stating that a great QB will get better results( not incremental, but not leaps and bounds either )behind the same line as a Carl Peterson yard-sale pick me up.
In MY debate, the line itself is static; the results of the QB behind it are what's in question.

The other point, and what started all of this to begin with, is that there are those who are calling for the Chiefs to completely abandon the idea of using the 2009 draft and the strategic position we will once again have in it( sadly ),to pick up a LEGITIMATE understudy at the Quarterback position.

Now; I just got done looking at Stafford's overall college stats. And to be honest, the film looks better than the numbers.
I plan to spend a good portion of my free time looking under every stone to try and get a clear picture of who we might have to choose from.
And if there really are no prospects to be had, then so be it; fill this roster top to bottom with Linemen and at least ONE OLB that can replace the utterly pathetic Pat Thomas. I'm not ready to give up on DJ just yet because I'm a firm believer that he, DeMorrio, and Morgan have what it takes when THEY'RE the ones on the job.
The Denver game is stone-cold solid proof of this, and I will broker NO GRUFF to the contrary.
We can save some cap space by putting Herb Taylor to work as well. Albert went out, Herb came in, and he had a great game. Let us( as I stated in a different thread where 'Pawnshop' and I concurred brilliance )establish a 'Meritocracy' ala College Ball( since we're in a "Youth Movement" anyway )whereby those who can play get to PLAY, and ditch the deadweight.

But understand THIS:

We...Have...NO...TOOLS in the Quarterback department. Period. Perhaps upcoming Quarterback #2,364-plus change just might be the odds-breaker, but I think we both know better.
This franchise has had a grand total of three genuine performers in it's 40+year history. One of which was a complete no-brainer that a high school coach could have picked from a thousand miles away, and known great results would be the outcome.
Now if you want to make Trent Green number 4, be my guest. But I never saw a level of play out of that guy that made me want to walk around with his jersey on. And even if you do; that's STILL one suck-a** grand total.
Now maybe where you and I disagree is this notion that you could put Thigpen behind the vintage Pittsburg "Iron Curtain", and he becomes Mr. All World.
Bullsh*t.
Talent is as talent does, and baby; he AIN'T got it.
So my main point is that perhaps it just might be time to break the chain of stupidity.

So draft great linemen, draft great Linebackers, and draft a new Waterboy if it tickles your 'naughty bits'.
But when THAT is accomplished, what's say we draft someone great to LEAD THEM.
(as we currently have no one).

I am one who would be thrilled to wait on a QB. And there are three main reasons.

1.) I don't know what we have with our current QBs.

You said it. A great QB does better in almost all situations. Even Favre played like garbage when the situation was bad enough. ('05)

Combine that with the beginning of a QBs career, and it's even harder to see what you have.

Croyle started eight games, and had a bad go of it. (0-8) But Troy Aikman went 0-11, with twice as many INTs as TDs. Peyton Manning didn't do much better. He was 3-13 as a rookie. (He did get some decent stats though.)

Injury prone? That is certainly arguable. But I find it hard to label him as injury-prone, when Herm Edwards has proven himself to be hazardous to his own QBs health, more than Croyle has been injured.

So I play the odds on this, and lay the fault on Herm. (Who has hurt more QBs than Reggie White and Deacon Jones combined.)

It certainly doesn't help that Croyle was forced to play, when he said that his body wasn't ready.

2.) I hate the idea of forcing another rookie to come in and take the beating right away. I prefer to create an environment that allows a QB to be successful.

You bring in some rookie QB and get his eggs scrambled right off the bat, how is that guy gonna be a leader?

Give the guy a chance. Protect him.

3.) Finding great o-linemen is easier than finding a great QB, and far less risky.

How many QBs did The browns draft before they decided to draft Joe Thomas instead of another QB?

How many QBs did The Dolphins draft, before they decided to take Jake Long?

Everybody thinks that you have to have a super-human QB. But it seems to be the O-linemen that wind-up making the difference for them. And that super-human QB only comes around once, every ten years or so.

There is a top-notch o-lineman in just about every draft, and he usually gets drafted after a QB that winds-up being a nothing. (Because he didn't have the o-line to be successful.)

4.) It's easier to make a great QB from a great o-line, than to make a great o-line from a great QB.

No explanation needed. Trent Green.

As for great Chiefs performers... 4? Including Green?

Len Dawson, Art Still, DT, Willie Lanier, Will Shields, Emmitt Thomas, Christian Okoye, Jan Stenerude, Buck Buchanan, Albert Lewis, Bobby Bell, Dave Hill, John Alt.... Which four are you seeing? There are six Hall Of Fame guys on my list, and none of them is DT.

Lastly, I don't care how much 'gruff' you want to 'broker', The Denver Donkos were the biggest reason for the outcome of that game. (I do like our young CBs...so far.)

If you are going to use the Donkos game as the 'end-all, be-all' for measuring our team, then Damon Huard is awesome! And that LJ guy kicks *** too! Not to mention, we have a dominant o-line!