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Thread: How to fix the Chiefs (revised)

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    Default How to fix the Chiefs (revised)


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    This is my revised checklist of how to fix the Chiefs, given everything we've seen over the first half of the season. I've incorporated the (regrettable) fact that Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson will probably not be fired.

    1. Draft offense, not defense.

    Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

    Draft, assuming no trades:

    RT
    QB
    RG
    C
    RB
    LG
    WR

    We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

    As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

    Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.

    2. Be very active in FA on defense.

    With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

    Sign the following under-30 free agents:

    LDE - Terrell Suggs
    1DT - Albert Haynesworth
    RDE - Julius Peppers
    MLB - Jonathan Vilma
    ROLB - Karlos Dansby
    1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
    FS - Dawan Landry

    We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

    3. Cut people who need to be cut.

    Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

    Which leads me to one guy seemingly left out for step 4.

    4. Cut or trade LJ

    I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

    Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

    5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

    Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

    If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

    Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

    As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

    6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

    Same as at the beginning of the season.

    7. Fire Gunther

    He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

    8. Abandon the Cover 2

    We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

    I think if we follow these steps, we finally will be rebuilding, and not just deconstructing.

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    Fire hermie, would be the best fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tornadospotter View Post
    Fire hermie, would be the best fix.
    I fully agree, but the gimps in the front office won't make it happen.

    A real team would fire Edwards today and promote Gailey for at least the rest of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlamerson View Post
    This is my revised checklist of how to fix the Chiefs, given everything we've seen over the first half of the season. I've incorporated the (regrettable) fact that Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson will probably not be fired.

    1. Draft offense, not defense.

    Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

    Draft, assuming no trades:

    RT
    QB
    RG
    C
    RB
    LG
    WR

    We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

    As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

    Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.

    2. Be very active in FA on defense.

    With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

    Sign the following under-30 free agents:

    LDE - Terrell Suggs
    1DT - Albert Haynesworth
    RDE - Julius Peppers
    MLB - Jonathan Vilma
    ROLB - Karlos Dansby
    1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
    FS - Dawan Landry

    We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

    3. Cut people who need to be cut.

    Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

    Which leads me to one guy seemingly left out for step 4.

    4. Cut or trade LJ

    I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

    Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

    5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

    Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

    If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

    Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

    As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

    6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

    Same as at the beginning of the season.

    7. Fire Gunther

    He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

    8. Abandon the Cover 2

    We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

    I think if we follow these steps, we finally will be rebuilding, and not just deconstructing.
    I disagree with a few points. Notably that most of those free agents will want to come here. Many play on competitive teams that will likely throw down big bucks (or will put a franchise tag on them) to keep them. I think Carr has some potential to be a good CB.

    As far as LJ, I would never cut him (what good is it to the team to cut him). I am anxious to see if he has anything left in him this season. If he does he has some trade value (if he will accept a smaller contract), or we can probably negotiate a smaller contract (the fact that his agent quit is a sign that he probably can be forced into accepting a smaller contract). I am not going to outright disagree, but instead hold my decision for a few weeks.

    I agree with the draft selection, except for the fact that it is hard to legitimize a top 10 (or 5) pick for a RT (a good solution I would like to see is to trade back to the middle/late 1st round for like another 3rd rounder or so).

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    i think its still too early to tell whether we need to waste a top 3 round pick on a QB...Thigpen is playing as well as Herm can ask from a QB...he loves to run it. So dont expect Herm to think QB is such a pressing need if Thigpen continues to play like this (not turning the ball over, throwing for 200-250 yards and a TD or two)

    I still think we should go MLB or OL with our first pick, depending on the player. Pat Thomas and whoever plays opposite of DJ just wont cut it anymore...there are some good lb's coming out that should go high (Maualuga from USC whom i think would be a fantastic Chief and Laurinitis from Ohio St.)...and THEN, once our Defense finally has a leader, we can focus on rebuilding the offense and most notably the "offensive" (because thats what it is) line...i think a high 2nd round pick for a G or RT, he should be able to step in and play from Day 1....And ofcourse it would also be nice to trade LJ for another 1st rounder (possibly a QB, or another lineman) but i dont think anyone will give a 1st rounder for LJ...maybe a 2nd.

    If we draft a couple solid OL in the first few rounds, and a MLB that can be a leader on this defense, we could really see this team be pretty good (wow!)....thats assuming Thigpen keeps the turnovers to a minimum and manages the offense...which is a BIG question..

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlamerson View Post
    Your list was upside down and backwards. I put your list in the order in which each decision should be addressed, then responded thereafter.
    5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

    Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

    If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

    Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

    As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

    A decision needs to be made if you're going to sign him to a long term contract. If you offer Thigpen a big, long-term contract, He needs to be your franchise QB. You don't give backups big contract extensions. I might extend him a year or two, but not offer him a big contract. So, I'd let him start next year and see if he's the guy. THEN, I'd take a look at a long-term contract if he's earned it.

    Same with Bradley. I really like what he's done thus far, but i might think differently about his long-term future with this team after free agency and the draft. I'd look at his contract during the summer if anything. This particular decision doesn't need to be made this winter and is probably last on this list as far as importance is concerned.


    6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

    Neither of these guys are going to retire, but you're right. The front office needs to sit down and discuss their futures.

    Same as at the beginning of the season.

    5.Cut or trade LJ

    I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

    Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

    Johnson still has trade value and I don't think asking for a 2nd round pick for him would be asking too much. Although, I think he's more valuable to the Chiefs as a player than the return he'd bring back. The problem is, what is his personality doing to the chemistry of team and is it going to be detrimental?

    As far as him being "run into the ground," I don't believe that. He's had 3 solid seasons being the load carrier. He still has plenty of game left in him. Just not 3-6 more seasons like we'd all like.


    3. Cut people who need to be cut.

    Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

    I'd keep Page and Croyle. They would serve as good backups at the very least. Most of the others are probably too old and the others haven't made an impact yet eventhough they've been given an opportunity this season.

    The first round of Free Agency, where all the players you suggest will be is BEFORE the draft.

    2. Be very active in FA on defense.

    With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

    Sign the following under-30 free agents:

    LDE - Terrell Suggs
    wow. Absolutely THE most overrated LB in the league. While he WOULD be an upgrade over Edwards, I think there are WAY better options. The first would be drafting. But, let's say we sign him. Briggs got 6 years, 36 million last year. We'll just give him 4 years, 20 mil.
    1DT - Albert Haynesworth
    Honestly, you think the Titans will let the best DT in the league go? He'll get franchised. A 25 year old Shawn Rogers signed a 6 year, 42 mil. contract a couple years ago with a 14 mil. bonus. A 27 year old Haynesworth coming off a 2nd Pro Bowl will be asking for more. Let's say, 5 and 50.
    RDE - Julius Peppers
    will be 29 in January and is past his prime. He's got 7 sacks, 29 tkls and 4 FF. I do think he'd be an upgrade over what we already have. But, I doubt he'd be a player that we could build the defense around for the long-term. But, let's say we get him. Last year, a 28 year old Justin Smith signed a 6 year 45 mil. contract with a 20mil. signing bonus. Better believe Peppers will ask for comparable money. 5 years, 38 mil might do it. But you're gonna have to overpay to get him here, so bank on a little more.
    MLB - Jonathan Vilma
    First, he's not really a MLB. While he could play in the middle, I'd rather put him outside and agree with the signing. He's young and could be a cornerstone for this franchise. Again, you're looking at Briggs money. 6 years, 42 mil. might do it. Hell, we might get him at a discount since Herm drafted him with the Jets. Chances of the Saints letting him go are extremely remote. For every reason we want him, are exactly the reasons why the Saints won't let him go.
    ROLB - Karlos Dansby
    See Vilma
    1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
    I like Carr as the CB opposite Flowers. But, if we could bring in Asomugha, that would be great. He's going to cost a lot though. Asanti Samuel got 6 and 54. So, lets give him that.
    FS - Dawan Landry
    I haven't watched the Ravens enough to know much about this guy. But looking over his first 3 years in the league, we could do better. Hell, Page would do better.
    We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

    1. Draft offense, not defense.

    Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

    Draft, assuming no trades:

    RT (Should be a WR, OLB or DE) OLB if we can't get a FA.
    QB (Should be a WR, RT or OLB)OLB if we can't get a FA.
    RG (I could agree with RG here)
    C (Pass. We have a center. Best player available)
    RB (Best player available)
    LG (Best player available)
    WR (Best player available)

    We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

    No. I don't want the problem the Cleveland Browns have. As soon as something goes bad, I don't want to hear about how the backup should be playing. The Chiefs need to approach Thigpen as the starter the way they did with Croyle. If he doesn't show promise to be the guy next year, then 2010 is the year we draft a QB high.

    As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

    I would love to draft a replacement for Waters this spring, but there are too many holes to fill.

    Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.


    7. Fire Gunther

    He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

    Gunther is a great and passionate coach. He's not the problem. The problem is the talent, player experience and not being able to keep starters/players healthy

    8. Abandon the Cover 2

    We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

    I've never understood a quitter's mentality. Instead of fixing the problem, you'd rather quit playing the best defensive system in the league. Even a lack of talent shouldn't make you abandon a proven system. You fix whatever the problem is.
    ....
    Last edited by texaschief; 11-10-2008 at 02:21 AM.

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    Overall, I'd like to keep Thigpen and commit to him as our QB for next season. Don't sign a FA QB. Don't draft a QB. Let him know he's the guy next season and for the foreseeable future if earns the job. If we take a high pick QB, then no matter WHAT Thigpen does from here on, it's never going to be enough to secure the starting spot for this team because that draft pick will be sitting there with his high contract and massive potential.

    Again, just look at the Browns. Anderson made the Pro Bowl last season and it wasn't enough to keep his job this year. Doesn't matter that the whole team is awful and isn't playing like it did last year, Anderson still took the blame and now the Browns are losing with Quinn as well. Whoever the QB is, needs to feel secure in his position as the leader of the team and not be put in the position where he's looking over his shoulder after every play. If he can't earn the spot next season, then move in another direction. But, before you commit to Thigpen for next season, you have to watch him the rest of the year and decide if he's the guy you want to move forward with in 2009.

    I wouldn't mind spending some money on fringe positions like WR. Bringing in Colston (25) or Henderson (26) from the Saints would be a good investment to be the #2 guy, pushing Bradley to #3. That wouldn't be awful.

    There aren't too many offensive linemen in free agency worth signing. Jordan Gross would be nice, but he's a left tackle and i'm not sure if his game would translate well to RT because I haven't watched him much. Marc Colombo is a good guard for the Cowboys, but at 29, he'd be iffy as far as a building block. I think the Chiefs are stuck building the right side through the draft.

    On defense, our core group is Dorsey, Tank, Hali, Johnson, Flowers, Pollard and perhaps Carr. That leaves the FS, OLB, DE, MLB and maybe a corner spot to fill. The OLB spot would be best filled with Vilma. The DE spot would be best filled with a high draft choice. The FS spot could be filled in the draft. There really just isn't a FS in Free Agency worth signing whose better than the guy we've got. The MLB spot looked solid at least for the next year with Thomas, but if his injury makes him lose significant time, it may hurt his long-term future here. I'd love to sign Asomugha. I just don't know how possible that is. I think Carr could play well enough to lock down that other CB spot at least for another season.

    After we come out of the first phase of personnel moves, a best case scenario has the Chiefs looking like this going into the draft:

    Offense:
    QB-Thigpen, Croyle, Gray
    RB-Johnson, Charles, Smith, Savage, Battle
    WR-Bowe, Colston/Henderson, Bradley
    TE-Gonzo, Cottam
    LT-Albert
    LG-Waters
    C-Niswanger
    RG-OPEN
    RT-OPEN

    Defense:
    MLB-Thomas/OPEN
    ROLB-Johnson
    LOLB-Vilma
    DT-Tank, Dorsey
    DE-Hali, OPEN
    FS-OPEN
    SS-Pollard
    CB-Asomugha, Flowers, Carr

    So, best case scenario heading into the draft, we're going to need a DE, FS, RT, RG and maybe a MLB. So, knowing that, here's how the draft should go:

    1-DE
    2-RT/MLB
    3-RT/RG
    4-RG/FS
    Then, the rest of the draft should be best available player or guys you've scouted who you think would be steals.

    I honestly don't think the defense is in bad a condition as you think they are. There's no reason to go all "Al Davis" and buy another losing record. Let these players develop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texaschief View Post
    I've never understood a quitter's mentality. Instead of fixing the problem, you'd rather quit playing the best defensive system in the league. Even a lack of talent shouldn't make you abandon a proven system. You fix whatever the problem is.
    I agree, for the moment, with most of what you said.

    But this is not right. It's not really even close. Have a look at Pittsburgh. That's the best defensive system in the NFL, and has been for a very long time.

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    I agree with texaschief on everything except I would push hard for Asomougha and move Carr to NB(NB are important too!).

    Normally I don't like to prioritize a position like CB, as it can easily be disguised by a great d-line, but living in the bay area and watching Raider games every sunday(my GF has season tickets), this guy is as shut down as you will EVER get from a cornerback. He does it while playing man-to-man almost 100% of the snaps. Today I just saw him work steve smith like fiddle(he wasn't covering smith on his only reception). The only pass attempted his way today he intercepted. As far as big money FA go, I would focus on just Asomougha and Haynesworth and nobody else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chief31 View Post
    I agree, for the moment, with most of what you said.

    But this is not right. It's not really even close. Have a look at Pittsburgh. That's the best defensive system in the NFL, and has been for a very long time.
    Of the top ten defenses, half of them run the cover 2.

    Also, http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_532381.html

    Tomlin introducing the Cover 2 is what really set that defense off this season. They're playing a lot more this year. That article was from last year. They've been playing some C2 for a while.
    Last edited by texaschief; 11-10-2008 at 02:57 AM.

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