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Thread: ChiefsCrowd.com Article : Patience is a Virtue- but Monster Killing is way more fun!

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    Post ChiefsCrowd.com Article : Patience is a Virtue- but Monster Killing is way more fun!


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    ChiefsCrowd.com - Joshua BrownGrab your torches and pitchforks! There’s a monster we must slay, and we must do it quickly! That’s kind of the witch hunting mentality that has been floating around since Carl Peterson announced his resignation, and then Clark Hunt hired Scott Piloli. And who is this monster? Well, it’s the dreaded Herm of Castle Edwards, of course! The beast that ran off the most productive offense the Chiefs have

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Before we beat down the gates and storm the castle, let’s not blame all the woes on Herm Edwards, and let’s give him some credit. I think we’ve had some good drafts with Herm as the coach, and… uh… ok, so we’ve had some good drafts, and we should remember that, because if even half the players he drafted turn into super stars, we’re going to have some explosive talent on this team. But he certainly has had his failures, and these have been run down, shot, beaten, and ground into the dirt by Chiefs fans and sports fans the country (maybe even the world) over.
    And if significantly less than half turn out to be even NFL worthy? If at the end of the day, only Flowers, Bowe, Carr, (maybe) Albert, and (maybe) Pollard turn out to be NFL caliber starters - which is the way it looks to me right now.

    Then, will everyone finally admit that we wasted the past three years with the Herm Edwards experiment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlamerson View Post
    And if significantly less than half turn out to be even NFL worthy? If at the end of the day, only Flowers, Bowe, Carr, (maybe) Albert, and (maybe) Pollard turn out to be NFL caliber starters - which is the way it looks to me right now.

    Then, will everyone finally admit that we wasted the past three years with the Herm Edwards experiment?
    Albert a Maybe? He could end up being one of the best picks from this year's draft. You are also forgetting Page who's a much better safety than Pollard, in my opinion. Having half of the players you draft become good NFL caliber players is pretty good. I can see saying Herm's first two drafts weren't that great but last year we his the jackpot and you'd be an idiot to think otherwise.
    "We're not good enough. That's what I keep telling our guys." - Herm Edwards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nel Toille View Post
    Albert a Maybe? He could end up being one of the best picks from this year's draft. You are also forgetting Page who's a much better safety than Pollard, in my opinion. Having half of the players you draft become good NFL caliber players is pretty good. I can see saying Herm's first two drafts weren't that great but last year we his the jackpot and you'd be an idiot to think otherwise.
    No, an idiot is someone who thinks a guy like Page, who can't tackle or cover, is a good FS. Or that most of the guys we drafted last year are good now.

    Our 2008 draft:

    Dorsey played no better than any undrafted DT last year.

    Albert was a bad LT until we moved to a shotgun, spread sort of offense. Then he and the rest of the line improved in their pass protection. In a conventional NFL offense, he hasn't shown that he's a good NFL LT yet.

    Flowers was a good pick.

    Charles showed flashed, but doesn't look like he'll ever be healthy enough to be a starter.

    Cottam showed nothing.

    Morgan couldn't start despite our massive injuries - a terrible pick.

    Franklin showed nothing, except that he's probably too injury prone to ever be a NFL WR.

    Carr was a good pick.

    And Richardson, Robinson, Johnston, and Merritt showed nothing.

    Don't call other people idiots without having a clue what you're talking about. The draft everyone was fawning over at the time looks pretty useless right now. Every year Chiefs fans have raved about Herm's drafts. And they've been poor to awful every year.

    Herm's had 27 draft picks. Five look like NFL starters. Some might turn out better than I think. But right now, his 18% hit rate looks awfully pathetic.

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    I haven't been overly impressed by herms draft skills yet. i will say it still may be to early to give a final grade to yet, but a player who earns a starting spot on a last place team fraught w/injuries may be a third stringer on a good team. we have had to pluck players off other teams practice squad and plug them in to the following weeks game, so our bar is set a little lower than most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlamerson View Post
    No, an idiot is someone who thinks a guy like Page, who can't tackle or cover, is a good FS. Or that most of the guys we drafted last year are good now.

    Our 2008 draft:

    SNIP
    I think you missed the point, then. You have to be one of the most impatient people I've run across here at ChiefsCrowd

    I'm not going to post up and tell you that Herm's a good coach, or that everything he does is gold- far from it. But the point of the article is to show a little patience with the drafted players. I would guess that very few have some kind of phenomenal, breakout season as a rookie, so let's let Scott Piloli work in a little (or a lot) more talent around these guys, including some veteran free agents.

    As Scott said at the press conference, this is a team thing- and all these guys need to be working together to make this happen. So if we craft an O-line that can allow Charles to do what he does best, and give Thigpen time to throw, then Charles and Thigpen are going to look and play a lot better.

    So really, just have some patience and let these guys do what they do with a year now under their belt. I just think it's hard to evaluate whether they're going to be good or bad because of one year.

    jb

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlamerson View Post
    No, an idiot is someone who thinks a guy like Page, who can't tackle or cover, is a good FS. Or that most of the guys we drafted last year are good now.

    Our 2008 draft:

    Dorsey played no better than any undrafted DT last year.

    Albert was a bad LT until we moved to a shotgun, spread sort of offense. Then he and the rest of the line improved in their pass protection. In a conventional NFL offense, he hasn't shown that he's a good NFL LT yet.

    Flowers was a good pick.

    Charles showed flashed, but doesn't look like he'll ever be healthy enough to be a starter.

    Cottam showed nothing.

    Morgan couldn't start despite our massive injuries - a terrible pick.

    Franklin showed nothing, except that he's probably too injury prone to ever be a NFL WR.

    Carr was a good pick.

    And Richardson, Robinson, Johnston, and Merritt showed nothing.

    Don't call other people idiots without having a clue what you're talking about. The draft everyone was fawning over at the time looks pretty useless right now. Every year Chiefs fans have raved about Herm's drafts. And they've been poor to awful every year.

    Herm's had 27 draft picks. Five look like NFL starters. Some might turn out better than I think. But right now, his 18% hit rate looks awfully pathetic.
    I never defended Herm's first two drafts, just this last one. You ARE and idiot if you think this past draft was a bust and, considering you are one of the only ones who thinks it was, I don't see how you can say I don't know what I'm talking about. Cottam, Franklin and Johnston got little to no playing time so it's unfair to say they did nothing. Albert made his mistakes early on but he always came back and made up for it. Any expert will tell you he's still one of the better O-Linemen taken out of the draft behind only Clady and Long. Jamaal Charles did what he was aked to do. He's a situational back and nobody ever expected him to be a starter. You can't fairly judge this group until a couple more years down the line, but considering a good number of them were playing at a high level this early in their careers, it IS idiotic to say this draft was a bust. I'm sorry if that offends you but I just can't see that as anything else but a fact.
    I'm not defending Herm and his drafting ability, I'm just pointing out that using last year's draft as an example of his inabilty to scout talent isn't the way to go if you want to fuel your argument. You can look any other team's draft from last year and you can't say any of them produced more NFL caliber players than the Chiefs did at this time.
    And as for Page, you obviously weren't watching any of the games toward the end of the season. Him and Flowers were the only two players that showed up on that defense and he proved he can be an good-great FS in this league. I agree that he has some tackling issues but that is the deal with everyone on the team. That's just a result of bad coaching not lack of talent.
    "We're not good enough. That's what I keep telling our guys." - Herm Edwards

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh1971 View Post
    I think you missed the point, then. You have to be one of the most impatient people I've run across here at ChiefsCrowd

    I'm not going to post up and tell you that Herm's a good coach, or that everything he does is gold- far from it. But the point of the article is to show a little patience with the drafted players. I would guess that very few have some kind of phenomenal, breakout season as a rookie, so let's let Scott Piloli work in a little (or a lot) more talent around these guys, including some veteran free agents.

    As Scott said at the press conference, this is a team thing- and all these guys need to be working together to make this happen. So if we craft an O-line that can allow Charles to do what he does best, and give Thigpen time to throw, then Charles and Thigpen are going to look and play a lot better.

    So really, just have some patience and let these guys do what they do with a year now under their belt. I just think it's hard to evaluate whether they're going to be good or bad because of one year.

    jb
    I'll accept your reasoning, if others are willing to reverse it. I'll stop bashing this year's draft if others stop saying it was good. I don't object when people say its too early to tell on the 2007 and 2008 drafts. It's when people say that at worst, half of Herm's picks will be starters for us. Or that you have to be an idiot not to see how good the 2008 draft was.

    My problem with the 2008 draft isn't the players, mostly. My big problem is that we drafted players we didn't need for positions that weren't opening up any time soon. Brad Cottam may be the next Tony G., but we're probably not finding out until his 1st contract is up (which should be near when Tony G. retires). Charles may be a good 3DRB, but even the coaching staff doesn't think he's a 20 touch a game guy. We drafted a SS in Morgan, when we have the very young Pollard manning the spot. We drafted a DT in Dorsey knowing it takes time to groom them (BTW, everyone kept raving how Dorsey would be an impact rookie - it's revisionism to claim at the end of the season that he needs more time). We drafted a college RG, moved him to LT, and basically decided that the rest of the OL was good for 2008. We didn't bother to draft a replacement for JA. We drafted an injury prone, small WRs in Franklin and Robinson. We drafted another TE, when we already drafted three in the previous two years and we have the best ever on the roster.

    We spent 10 picks on project guys and 2 on CBs. It wouldn't shock me if guys like Dorsey have good careers. Sims has done OK in Tampa since he left KC. But they aren't helping this team. Morgan may have all the talent in the world, but we're not going to find out with him splitting time with Pollard. Same with Cottam/Gonzo. And we followed this terrible draft strategy of picking backups for our young players while filling our gaping holes on the OL, LB, and DL with retreads and low draft picks.

    Instead of saying the 2008 draft was good or bad, the question should be whether the Chiefs have gotten any benefit out of the 2008 draft yet. We got a good spread LT (and maybe in a real offense as well), a good set of CBs, and maybe a 3DRB. That's all we know.

    The average career of a player drafted in the NFL is three years. I think three years is a good enough period to tell whether a draft class is good or not. And look at Herm's first draft class for the Chiefs. Only three of these players have even possible value to the chiefs (Page, Pollard, and Hali). And all three of these players still have huge question marks. The other four picks (Webb, Stallings, Maxey, Croyle) are already out of the league, or will be out of the league in 2009.

    I just wish everyone would stop calling Herm a master talent evaluator. Because he talent evaluations have done very little for this team.

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    I think Pollard has done well, Page not so much. I like Both Carr and Flowers, Albert will end up being solid as well.

    Other than that, give Dorsey another year or two along with letting Turk and Tank have some more time.

    Does any of this mean we should keep Herm? Definately not, heck, since his drafts where so 'good' why couldnt he win any games?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nel Toille View Post
    I never defended Herm's first two drafts, just this last one. You ARE and idiot if you think this past draft was a bust and, considering you are one of the only ones who thinks it was, I don't see how you can say I don't know what I'm talking about. Cottam, Franklin and Johnston got little to no playing time so it's unfair to say they did nothing. Albert made his mistakes early on but he always came back and made up for it. Any expert will tell you he's still one of the better O-Linemen taken out of the draft behind only Clady and Long. Jamaal Charles did what he was aked to do. He's a situational back and nobody ever expected him to be a starter. You can't fairly judge this group until a couple more years down the line, but considering a good number of them were playing at a high level this early in their careers, it IS idiotic to say this draft was a bust. I'm sorry if that offends you but I just can't see that as anything else but a fact.
    I'm not defending Herm and his drafting ability, I'm just pointing out that using last year's draft as an example of his inabilty to scout talent isn't the way to go if you want to fuel your argument. You can look any other team's draft from last year and you can't say any of them produced more NFL caliber players than the Chiefs did at this time.
    And as for Page, you obviously weren't watching any of the games toward the end of the season. Him and Flowers were the only two players that showed up on that defense and he proved he can be an good-great FS in this league. I agree that he has some tackling issues but that is the deal with everyone on the team. That's just a result of bad coaching not lack of talent.
    Three years from now, when most of our 2008 draft is out of the league (or at least off the Chiefs), I'd like to think that you and every other idiot out there defending it will admit that you're wrong. I hope that this doesn't offend you, but you have to be some sort of imbecile to defend many of these picks.

    Most of the draft picks did get little to no playing time. And yet you want to pretend this is a sign they were successful picks. Franklin, Richarson, Johnston, and Robinson were drafted to be starters at (respectively) 2WR, RT, DE, and KR/PR, and they couldn't hold the jobs. Franklin and Robinson are made of paper mache, Johnston couldn't even play after our entire DE corps died, and Richardson couldn't play on the worst OL in the league. Charles, Morgan, and Cottam did nothing this season - if they can't be called bad picks, they sure can't be called good ones.

    What, exactly, was so good about our draft class, except Albert, Carr, and Flowers?

    The Dolphins, Falcons, Ravens, Panthers, Redskins, Giants, and (unfortunately) Broncos all had better drafts than us, in terms of help for 2008 and beyond. And they all had a lot less picks than we did.

    Any expert will call Albert one of the top-3 OL in this draft? No. He's behind Clady, Pollack, Long, Otah, and even Baker on most people's year-end lists. And I'm not saying anything bad about Albert - he may turn out to be just fine in the NFL after we abandon the spread. It isn't coincidental that his struggles ended as soon as we left the pro set and moved to the spread, where he was given a couple more seconds to block. But we can't know that until he does so. That's why I wrote "maybe" next to his name.

    Also, Carr didn't show up on our defense? Really? He only played in all 16 games and was probably our ROY.

    If you think a guy like Page will ever be a legitimate FS in this league, then I really don't need to know much more about your NFL knowledge. Page is a bum.

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