3-4 Positional needs

[imcorrect]

I found this on the web and it got me thinking about our front 7.

• 3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)
• 3-4 OLBs are the playmakers of the D. They get the glory of picking up sacks on the QB. They must have strong pass rush skills and be able to drop into coverage. If the 3-4 OLBs are unable to consistently apply pressure on the QB, the D is very vulnerable in the passing game. They tend to weigh around 245-270, and many are former 4-3 DE/OLB "tweeners". Many 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the ability to play in space. The more agile 4-3 RDEs, such as the Jets' John Abraham (6-4 256), are able to play both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Many 4-3 OLBs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the pass rush skills and the ability to go toe-to-toe with an OT. Examples of solid 3-4 OLBs are the Patriots' Willie McGinest (6-5 270) and the Steelers' Joey Porter (6-2 248)
• 3-4 DEs tend to weigh around 290-310, and many are former 4-3 DT/DE "tweeners". They must be able to play the run well. The 3-4 DE is responsible for the B and C gaps in the running game and lines up in the 5-technique position, so he is head-up on the OT. It's tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE, because a 3-4 DE doesn't have the freedom to go willy nilly upfield. He has to protect the LBs in order for the 3-4 to work. Panthers' 4-3 DE Julius Peppers said he did not like playing 3-4 DE because he felt like he was essentially a DT. Unlike Peppers (6-6 290), most 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 DE, because they lack the size and ability to hold up against the run. Examples of solid 3-4 DEs are the Patriots' Richard Seymour (6-6 310), the Steelers' Aaron Smith (6-5 300), and the Raiders' Bobby Hamilton (6-5 285)
• 3-4 ILBs must be stout in run support. Because there are only 3 DL to match up against 5 OL, they must be able to stack and shed an unblocked offensive lineman in the running game. How hard is it to play 3-4 ILB? Check out this telling quote by All-Pro Ray Lewis, who is glad to be finished playing 3-4 ILB (the Ravens are switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and 46 for the 2005 season):

So who fits these needs for us?

To me it seems Dorsey does have the skill set for NT he just needs to put on 20-40 pounds. If Hali is going to be used mainly as a rusher on passing downs, who will play DE? We look to be set at both LB positions, especially if we draft another one. I know this has been talked to death in here but a lot of people just say "he could play this" without supporting evidence. So now that we are all educated, who goes where and why?

[KottkeKU]

I would not be opposed to taking Curry at no.3

**however, i wouldnt be surprised to see us trade down a few spots to someone who really wanted Curry (hes the best defensive player in the draft and someone might swap 1st round picks and throw in their 3rd rounder for the rights to Curry)**

which leaves us with a top 10-15 pick in which we draft Raji (i dont think he will go top 5...top 8 maybe), Everette Brown, Or one of the USC linebackers

and an extra 3rd round pick which we can get an OL with...and use the other 3rd round pick on best linebacker available...

which leaves us with a hole or two on the defensive line...im thinking Dorsey=DE, Tyler = NT, and ? = DE

I also would not be opposed to taking Raji with no.3....NE reached last year for Mayo and he turned out great....maybe if we reach for Raji, he will turn out a solid DL which we have needed for ages...

[jmlamerson]

B.J. is the SAME type of player Dorsey was in College!!! I do not see BJ doing any better then Dorsey(he could gain 15 pounds in one night).

Wow. No, Dorsey and Raji are completely opposite types of DTs. Dorsey is designed to play the gap and get pressure on the QB. Raji is a run stuffer and pocket collapser. It's the difference between Warren Sapp and Vince Wilfork.

You're dreaming if you think Dorsey can ever play NT in the NFL, no matter how much weight he puts on. And Tank got blown up all last year going one-on-one with OGs. Maybe he lost weight because of Herm and Gunther's stupidity, but that doesn't change the fact that he's not currently capable of handling the position.

What we need most is a DE/OLB. A guy that can go down in a 4-3 as DE then get up and play OLB in a 3-4.

No, we don't. A hybrid DE/OLB would be very nice to have, sure, but it isn't our most pressing need.

Our most pressing needs are big guys to protect the QB and big guys to stop the run. We don't have enough of the first and we have none of the second. Get guys who can stop the run, and the sacks will follow. It isn't the other way around.

So lets look at a draft with no trades.

1) Brown "DE/OLB"
3) Wood "C"
4) McKillop "MLB"
5) Will Johnson "3-4 DE"
6) Boone "RT"
7) Curtis Taylor "S"
7) Chase Patton "QB"

Good draft, except that we don't need Chase Patton (we have our young starter in Cassel and our young project in Thigpen), and I'd replace Brown with Raji.

[Coach]

I tend to be more in Balto's campo on this issue. I'm interested to see if Tank can play NT. Dorsey is a 3-gap DT who will not flourish at NT though.

I think the Chiefs should address the anemic pass rush with the 1st pick. They will likely get a really good RT with their 3rd round or 4th round pick. They already spent a 1st rounder last year on a LT. They have Waters at LG and Goff is now at RT. They should be able to plug someone else in at C.

This team finished 31st in the NFL in defense last year and set a record for futility in sacks. It needs to be addressed early and often in this draft.

[chief31]

I tend to be more in Balto's campo on this issue. I'm interested to see if Tank can play NT. Dorsey is a 3-gap DT who will not flourish at NT though.

I think the Chiefs should address the anemic pass rush with the 1st pick. They will likely get a really good RT with their 3rd round or 4th round pick. They already spent a 1st rounder last year on a LT. They have Waters at LG and Goff is now at RT. They should be able to plug someone else in at C.

This team finished 31st in the NFL in defense last year and set a record for futility in sacks. It needs to be addressed early and often in this draft.

I agree that the defense has some major holes. Just noy as many as most seem to think.

I place alot of the blame for last seasons defense on coaching. Herm's refusal to stray from the "Tampa-2" concept and Gunther's willingness to continue to try and run it with what was there.

Player-wise, I think that it was three players that caused alot of others to look bad.

1.) Jared Allen. The fact that noone else was even able to sniff the QB all year was easily the most noticable problem last season. And Hali should not have been expected to fill that role.

2.) Tank Tyler. I am not labelling Tank as a failure yet, but he failed an aweful lot last season. You have to be able to stand your ground better than Tank did last year. I hope he has learned a few things from that.

3.) Jared Page. I know alot of us like him, because he sometimes winds-up in the right place, when there is a bad pass, but he frequently misses big tackle opportunities, and regularly obstructs other defenders from making tackles.

It is pretty tough to make tackles when you have to avoid blockers. But far more difficult when you have to avoid blockers, your own DTs, and your own FS.

Having gotten Goff is a very big step for what I feel the offense needed. I definitely feel alot better now, than I did one year ago.

But I am still hopeful that we will be getting some more O-line help, somewhere.

[jmlamerson]

I tend to be more in Balto's campo on this issue. I'm interested to see if Tank can play NT. Dorsey is a 3-gap DT who will not flourish at NT though.

I think the Chiefs should address the anemic pass rush with the 1st pick. They will likely get a really good RT with their 3rd round or 4th round pick. They already spent a 1st rounder last year on a LT. They have Waters at LG and Goff is now at RT. They should be able to plug someone else in at C.

This team finished 31st in the NFL in defense last year and set a record for futility in sacks. It needs to be addressed early and often in this draft.

The sack stat jumps out, I know, and it is the one every is currently fixated on. But everyone keeps forgetting how bad our run defense is, and was even with JA in the lineup in 2007. We gave up 131/yards a game on the ground in 2007 and 159/game in 2008, both years ranked at or near the bottom of the league. The reason is because we have a bunch of Cover 2 undersized DTs who get manhandled and can't draw a double team.

And I blame our lack of pass rush on the fact that our DTs couldn't draw a double team more than any other reason. We need a space eating DT so very, very badly to defense both the run and the pass. Even if Dorsey were the next Warren Sapp, it wouldn't do us any good unless we get some size in the middle of the field to draw a double team or two.

I'm with chief31 on Tank. Wake me when he shows he can actually do anything in this league. Also Page - who is about the opposite of a 3-4 FS, BTW.

I think the most underrated bad move by Herm was cutting Napo. Like him or hate him, he was a real MLB and could make a tackle.

Look, I know no one wants to spend another high pick on DT when we've spent so many over the past decade, including a top-5 pick last year. But unless we have a real NT/DT for the middle of the field, it doesn't matter if we get Freeney on one side and Peppers on the other. Teams will run all over us, control the clock, wear down our defense, and we'll be a perennial 4-win or less team.

[fairladyZ]

What about Raji's teammate? i forgot his name but i've seen his name tossed around a few times. Just as good as raji and projected in the 3rd round? EDIT Ron Brace.

I'm so far off teh Raji bandwagon. The guy does not impress me at all. i don't like his attitude. I haven't seen anything from him. everyone brags about the senior bowl and i watched the replay on NFL network and saw nothing from him.

I say Orakpo/Curry with #3 pick. Raji's teammate or OL with #3 pick.

Edit #2 an overview of Ron Brace
Overview Teammate BJ Raji received more attention than Brace, who is a stout run defender in his own right. A second-team All-ACC selection in 2008 after earning honorable mention in 2007 -- when Raji was academically ineligible -- Brace isn't going to provide much in terms of statistical production. In fact, Brace's combined statistics from his two all-conference seasons led to numbers that some of the other highly ranked defensive tackles enjoyed in just one season: 54 tackles, 18.5 tackles for loss and 5.5 sacks. Brace might lack name recognition and explosive burst, but his stout frame, lower-body strength and versatility could make him a mid-round value come draft day.



Analysis
Positives: Square-framed, naturally large man. ... Surprising initial quickness off the snap to disrupt the play before it has a chance to begin. ... Good lateral quickness to slide down the line. ... Good use of hands to slap away the blockers' attempts to control him. ... Good overall strength, especially in his lower body, to hold up at the point. ... Can anchor against the double-team and flashes the ability to split. ... Able to close if given a free lane. ... Recognizes the action quickly and can slide off the block onto the runner as he goes by. ... Versatile defender capable of projecting as a zero-, one- or three-technique at the next level.

Negatives: Only "phone booth" quickness. ... Requires a free lane to close on the quarterback and isn't going to provide significant interior pass rush. ... Marginal effort and ability in pursuit. ... Flanked by a better prospect in Raji and often faces only one blocker. ... Struggled with a recurring back injury in 2008. ... Concern over back injury only heightened considering his heavy build and potential to allow his weight to get out of control.

[yashi]

1. Raji
3. Loadholt (RT)
4. Brandon Williams (3-4 Pass Rusher)
5.
6. Ra'shon Harris (3-4 DE, 6'4" 298 lbs)
7.
7.

or

1. Curry
3. Loadholt (RT)
4. Sammie Lee Hill (NT, 6'4" 329 lbs)
5.
6. Ra'shon Harris (3-4 DE, 6'4" 298 lbs)
7.
7.

or

1. Curry
3. Ron Brace (NT)
4. Rashad Jennings (Power RB)
5.
6. Ra'shon Harris (3-4 DE, 6'4" 298 lbs)
7.
7.

I do love the 3rd one, but I think it's the least likely to be possible. I think Ron Brace goes in the 2nd round to the Broncos. They need an NT as much as we do. Jennings probably goes earlier too...

[Coach]

What about Raji's teammate? i forgot his name but i've seen his name tossed around a few times. Just as good as raji and projected in the 3rd round? EDIT Ron Brace.

I'm so far off teh Raji bandwagon. The guy does not impress me at all. i don't like his attitude. I haven't seen anything from him. everyone brags about the senior bowl and i watched the replay on NFL network and saw nothing from him.

I say Orakpo/Curry with #3 pick. Raji's teammate or OL with #3 pick.

Edit #2 an overview of Ron Brace
Overview Teammate BJ Raji received more attention than Brace, who is a stout run defender in his own right. A second-team All-ACC selection in 2008 after earning honorable mention in 2007 -- when Raji was academically ineligible -- Brace isn't going to provide much in terms of statistical production. In fact, Brace's combined statistics from his two all-conference seasons led to numbers that some of the other highly ranked defensive tackles enjoyed in just one season: 54 tackles, 18.5 tackles for loss and 5.5 sacks. Brace might lack name recognition and explosive burst, but his stout frame, lower-body strength and versatility could make him a mid-round value come draft day.



Analysis
Positives: Square-framed, naturally large man. ... Surprising initial quickness off the snap to disrupt the play before it has a chance to begin. ... Good lateral quickness to slide down the line. ... Good use of hands to slap away the blockers' attempts to control him. ... Good overall strength, especially in his lower body, to hold up at the point. ... Can anchor against the double-team and flashes the ability to split. ... Able to close if given a free lane. ... Recognizes the action quickly and can slide off the block onto the runner as he goes by. ... Versatile defender capable of projecting as a zero-, one- or three-technique at the next level.

Negatives: Only "phone booth" quickness. ... Requires a free lane to close on the quarterback and isn't going to provide significant interior pass rush. ... Marginal effort and ability in pursuit. ... Flanked by a better prospect in Raji and often faces only one blocker. ... Struggled with a recurring back injury in 2008. ... Concern over back injury only heightened considering his heavy build and potential to allow his weight to get out of control.

I agree about Ron Brace. The perfect scenario might look like:
1st. Curry/E. Brown/Orapko
3rd. Brace
4th. LB or C