3-4 Positional needs

[imcorrect]

I found this on the web and it got me thinking about our front 7.

• 3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)
• 3-4 OLBs are the playmakers of the D. They get the glory of picking up sacks on the QB. They must have strong pass rush skills and be able to drop into coverage. If the 3-4 OLBs are unable to consistently apply pressure on the QB, the D is very vulnerable in the passing game. They tend to weigh around 245-270, and many are former 4-3 DE/OLB "tweeners". Many 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the ability to play in space. The more agile 4-3 RDEs, such as the Jets' John Abraham (6-4 256), are able to play both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Many 4-3 OLBs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the pass rush skills and the ability to go toe-to-toe with an OT. Examples of solid 3-4 OLBs are the Patriots' Willie McGinest (6-5 270) and the Steelers' Joey Porter (6-2 248)
• 3-4 DEs tend to weigh around 290-310, and many are former 4-3 DT/DE "tweeners". They must be able to play the run well. The 3-4 DE is responsible for the B and C gaps in the running game and lines up in the 5-technique position, so he is head-up on the OT. It's tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE, because a 3-4 DE doesn't have the freedom to go willy nilly upfield. He has to protect the LBs in order for the 3-4 to work. Panthers' 4-3 DE Julius Peppers said he did not like playing 3-4 DE because he felt like he was essentially a DT. Unlike Peppers (6-6 290), most 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 DE, because they lack the size and ability to hold up against the run. Examples of solid 3-4 DEs are the Patriots' Richard Seymour (6-6 310), the Steelers' Aaron Smith (6-5 300), and the Raiders' Bobby Hamilton (6-5 285)
• 3-4 ILBs must be stout in run support. Because there are only 3 DL to match up against 5 OL, they must be able to stack and shed an unblocked offensive lineman in the running game. How hard is it to play 3-4 ILB? Check out this telling quote by All-Pro Ray Lewis, who is glad to be finished playing 3-4 ILB (the Ravens are switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and 46 for the 2005 season):

So who fits these needs for us?

To me it seems Dorsey does have the skill set for NT he just needs to put on 20-40 pounds. If Hali is going to be used mainly as a rusher on passing downs, who will play DE? We look to be set at both LB positions, especially if we draft another one. I know this has been talked to death in here but a lot of people just say "he could play this" without supporting evidence. So now that we are all educated, who goes where and why?

[AussieChiefsFan]

I really think we should draft Raji... I've been on and off the Raji bandwagon, and then on and off the Curry bandwagon, and also the Monroe/Smith one. But I think Raji improves the team more than Curry does because of the position he plays, and we can get a good OT in the 3rd round.

Raji compliments Dorsey very well. And if we're running a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, Dorsey can slide from 3-4 DE to DT in the 4-3 packages next to Raji. For me, this suddenly makes the hybrid scheme play well to our personnel.

The biggest problem with Curry is that it's not difficult to get a good LB, but it is very difficult to get a good NT. The same goes for OTs, good ones are found in the later rounds of every draft.

There's been a lot of talk about Raji's character, but I read a quote from him saying that missing 2007 because of academic probation humbled him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he had any problems this year.

I read this article I found the other day, which makes a very convincing argument.

Why BJ Raji Makes Sense for the Kansas City Chiefs’ Transition To a 3-4 Defense | NFL Sport Channel

Seriously, watch this and tell me you don't want him on this team.

Right, Pick #1 Aaron Curry, Pick #3 ,NOT 2 (remember patriots get that one). So pick #3 to BJ Raji if he hasn't been drafted yet.

[yashi]

Right, Pick #1 Aaron Curry, Pick #3 ,NOT 2 (remember patriots get that one). So pick #3 to BJ Raji if he hasn't been drafted yet.

Raji is going to go in the top 5.

[bigpoppachief]

I really think we should draft Raji... I've been on and off the Raji bandwagon, and then on and off the Curry bandwagon, and also the Monroe/Smith one. But I think Raji improves the team more than Curry does because of the position he plays, and we can get a good OT in the 3rd round.

Raji compliments Dorsey very well. And if we're running a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, Dorsey can slide from 3-4 DE to DT in the 4-3 packages next to Raji. For me, this suddenly makes the hybrid scheme play well to our personnel.

The biggest problem with Curry is that it's not difficult to get a good LB, but it is very difficult to get a good NT. The same goes for OTs, good ones are found in the later rounds of every draft.

There's been a lot of talk about Raji's character, but I read a quote from him saying that missing 2007 because of academic probation humbled him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he had any problems this year.

I read this article I found the other day, which makes a very convincing argument.

Why BJ Raji Makes Sense for the Kansas City Chiefs’ Transition To a 3-4 Defense | NFL Sport Channel

Seriously, watch this and tell me you don't want him on this team.

I just dont liek raji for some reason really don't know why. I would rather get a OT than to get Raji. DK If we do get him I will be a fan because he is a chief but until then I am not impressed. I just dont think he played against anyone in college but then again I really dont follow college football much except big 12. Like I said I dont want to use a 3rd pick on him but if we do so be it. Hoenstly I would like to trade down and maybe grab another 3rd rounder or hopefully a 2nd and get E Brown. I really liek that kid been watching alot of video on him.

[Coach]

I found this on the web and it got me thinking about our front 7.

• 3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)
• 3-4 OLBs are the playmakers of the D. They get the glory of picking up sacks on the QB. They must have strong pass rush skills and be able to drop into coverage. If the 3-4 OLBs are unable to consistently apply pressure on the QB, the D is very vulnerable in the passing game. They tend to weigh around 245-270, and many are former 4-3 DE/OLB "tweeners". Many 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the ability to play in space. The more agile 4-3 RDEs, such as the Jets' John Abraham (6-4 256), are able to play both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Many 4-3 OLBs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the pass rush skills and the ability to go toe-to-toe with an OT. Examples of solid 3-4 OLBs are the Patriots' Willie McGinest (6-5 270) and the Steelers' Joey Porter (6-2 248)
• 3-4 DEs tend to weigh around 290-310, and many are former 4-3 DT/DE "tweeners". They must be able to play the run well. The 3-4 DE is responsible for the B and C gaps in the running game and lines up in the 5-technique position, so he is head-up on the OT. It's tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE, because a 3-4 DE doesn't have the freedom to go willy nilly upfield. He has to protect the LBs in order for the 3-4 to work. Panthers' 4-3 DE Julius Peppers said he did not like playing 3-4 DE because he felt like he was essentially a DT. Unlike Peppers (6-6 290), most 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 DE, because they lack the size and ability to hold up against the run. Examples of solid 3-4 DEs are the Patriots' Richard Seymour (6-6 310), the Steelers' Aaron Smith (6-5 300), and the Raiders' Bobby Hamilton (6-5 285)
• 3-4 ILBs must be stout in run support. Because there are only 3 DL to match up against 5 OL, they must be able to stack and shed an unblocked offensive lineman in the running game. How hard is it to play 3-4 ILB? Check out this telling quote by All-Pro Ray Lewis, who is glad to be finished playing 3-4 ILB (the Ravens are switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and 46 for the 2005 season):

Excellent post.

In closing, we need (in order):

NT
DE
FS
ILB

We could also use some more depth at DE and OLB. In short, more than we can realistically get only in the draft. My draft wish:

1st round: Raji (NT) - just tie the position down for the next decade

3rd round: Best RT

4th round: Best DE

5th round: Best FS

6th round: Best ILB

7th round: Best OLB and best DE

I think if the Chiefs draft based on need, you have nailed the positions they will address in that order. 1st round pick IMO will be a defensive player(Curry, Raji, Everette Brown).

[Chief Tyler]

Here come some scenarios that I feel fill the most holes and put us in the best possible position for next year, have fun tearing them apart!

1. Using the picks that we have right now with no/minimal trading.

1. Raji (NT)
3. D. Robinson (G) (considered Krueger again, but is he really the type of hybrid and/or 3-4 DE that we need right now? we still have Hali and Babin)
4. Scott McKillop (ILB) Pitt, only had one real year to analyze in college, but an impressive one with a pretty impressive combine)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (6-5, 47 reps at 225, fairly quick 40 time for a tackle, mediocre numbers during the season, but thats why he's a 5th round prospect. If this guy doesn't scream 3-4 DE, I don't know what does.)
6. FS/OT/WR/LB
7. FS/OT/WR/LB

2. Trade down a little bit into the 8-12 positions. I guess it is conceivable that the Bills, Broncos, Jags and Packers could all want to get into the top D player mix (with Mc-D at Denver, maybe not them so much). But trading down to that spot the pick equivalents would be about their 1, 2, 3, (4) for our first.

1. E. Brown (DE/OLB) (Raji if by some miracle he is still there, but if he gets out of the top 5 there are going to be 5 more really considering him in the next 10 or so picks)
2. P. Loadholt (OT)
3(a). D. Robinson (G)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4(a). Scott McKillop (ILB) (Same as above.)
4(b). Nic Harris (S) (Watched him play in Manhattan, looked at numbers, basically a S/LB, 3-4 sounds like a fit)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. DE/WR
7. DE/WR

3. Trade down with the Eagles, they say that with a franchise OT they feel they can make a SB run, but when was the last time Philly traded up in a draft? el oh el. Anywho, if they really wanted Smith/Monroe it would cost about both firsts, the second, third and something like a 2nd - 4th next year.

1(a). R. Maualuga (ILB) (This feels like no-mans land for Chiefs needs, Tyson Jackson could be a possibility here, he's basically an athletic tackle who could bulk up)
1(b). A. Mack (C) (Move Goff to RG and our line is starting to look pretty good)
2. Kenny Britt (WR)
3(a). Lawrence Sidbury (DE/OLB)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4. Nic Harris (S/LB) (Same as above.)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. LB/DE
7. LB/DE

4. Pioli works his magic and trades down in the first by increments, team by team, giving us 1 late first round pick and like 10 second rounders. (A guy can dream).

Scenario 2 is my personal favorite and the one that seems most plausible. We get the best DE/OLB tweener in the draft, a RT, a RG and eventual replacement for Waters, a massive NT with plenty of upside, a solid ILB, a 3-4 S prototype, and a DT that fits the mold of a 3-4 DE. 7 total potential starters.

Edit: I just realized I've given a lot of OU love, hate the school, but I hope thats not a problem!

The Philly scenario was a little too hard to fill out, some picks felt like stretches, some guys that might work for our team as far as type and skill and would fall around the given pick (like M. Johnson) don't seem to have the right mindset.

[jmlamerson]

Here come some scenarios that I feel fill the most holes and put us in the best possible position for next year, have fun tearing them apart!

1. Using the picks that we have right now with no/minimal trading.

1. Raji (NT)
3. D. Robinson (G) (considered Krueger again, but is he really the type of hybrid and/or 3-4 DE that we need right now? we still have Hali and Babin)
4. Scott McKillop (ILB) Pitt, only had one real year to analyze in college, but an impressive one with a pretty impressive combine)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (6-5, 47 reps at 225, fairly quick 40 time for a tackle, mediocre numbers during the season, but thats why he's a 5th round prospect. If this guy doesn't scream 3-4 DE, I don't know what does.)
6. FS/OT/WR/LB
7. FS/OT/WR/LB

2. Trade down a little bit into the 8-12 positions. I guess it is conceivable that the Bills, Broncos, Jags and Packers could all want to get into the top D player mix (with Mc-D at Denver, maybe not them so much). But trading down to that spot the pick equivalents would be about their 1, 2, 3, (4) for our first.

1. E. Brown (DE/OLB) (Raji if by some miracle he is still there, but if he gets out of the top 5 there are going to be 5 more really considering him in the next 10 or so picks)
2. P. Loadholt (OT)
3(a). D. Robinson (G)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4(a). Scott McKillop (ILB) (Same as above.)
4(b). Nic Harris (S) (Watched him play in Manhattan, looked at numbers, basically a S/LB, 3-4 sounds like a fit)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. DE/WR
7. DE/WR

3. Trade down with the Eagles, they say that with a franchise OT they feel they can make a SB run, but when was the last time Philly traded up in a draft? el oh el. Anywho, if they really wanted Smith/Monroe it would cost about both firsts, the second, third and something like a 2nd - 4th next year.

1(a). R. Maualuga (ILB) (This feels like no-mans land for Chiefs needs, Tyson Jackson could be a possibility here, he's basically an athletic tackle who could bulk up)
1(b). A. Mack (C) (Move Goff to RG and our line is starting to look pretty good)
2. Kenny Britt (WR)
3(a). Lawrence Sidbury (DE/OLB)
3(b). Chris Baker (NT)
4. Nic Harris (S/LB) (Same as above.)
5. Will Johnson (DT/DE) (Same as above.)
6. LB/DE
7. LB/DE

4. Pioli works his magic and trades down in the first by increments, team by team, giving us 1 late first round pick and like 10 second rounders. (A guy can dream).

Scenario 2 is my personal favorite and the one that seems most plausible. We get the best DE/OLB tweener in the draft, a RT, a RG and eventual replacement for Waters, a massive NT with plenty of upside, a solid ILB, a 3-4 S prototype, and a DT that fits the mold of a 3-4 DE. 7 total potential starters.

Edit: I just realized I've given a lot of OU love, hate the school, but I hope thats not a problem!

The Philly scenario was a little too hard to fill out, some picks felt like stretches, some guys that might work for our team as far as type and skill and would fall around the given pick (like M. Johnson) don't seem to have the right mindset.

You're crazy. No team is going to give up nearly that much to move up to 3. And Duke Robinson won't be available in the 3rd if we stand pat.

[Chief Tyler]

You're crazy. No team is going to give up nearly that much to move up to 3. And Duke Robinson won't be available in the 3rd if we stand pat.

Going by draft point values. 3rd overall = 2200. 8 = 1400, so to make up the difference it would be a 2+3 and possible 4th.

And on mocks I've seen Robinson anywhere from mid second to low 3rd, even if he's gone there are some pretty solid OL guys still out there.

[Coach]

You're crazy. No team is going to give up nearly that much to move up to 3. And Duke Robinson won't be available in the 3rd if we stand pat.

Exactly what I was thinking as I read that post. Teams don't want to trade into the top 5. They only want to trade out of it. Like the Chiefs for example. All this will change once the rookie salary cap is finally added.

And on mocks I've seen Robinson anywhere from mid second to low 3rd, even if he's gone there are some pretty solid OL guys still out there.

There will still be pretty good guards, and RT's on the board when we pick in the 3rd.

[jmlamerson]

Going by draft point values. 3rd overall = 2200. 8 = 1400, so to make up the difference it would be a 2+3 and possible 4th.

And on mocks I've seen Robinson anywhere from mid second to low 3rd, even if he's gone there are some pretty solid OL guys still out there.

No one uses that chart anymore, not since top-5 rookies started getting massively overpaid. If any team is dumb enough to give us a 2nd to swap firsts, we take that, much less throwing in a 3rd and 4th.

Duke will be gone by the middle of the 2nd. Tell the truth, I don't see him lasting past the OG-needy Steelers at 32.

I admire your enthusiasm, and if any of those trades even come close to happening, I'll be estatic and amazed at your foresight. But you have better chance of winning the lottery than the Chiefs do of getting the Eagles, Packers, or any other of those other teams to make a trade like that.

EDIT: And Coach is right, as soon as we get a rookie scale, you'll see a whole lot more trading in the top-5.

[balto]

B.J. is the SAME type of player Dorsey was in College!!! I do not see BJ doing any better then Dorsey(he could gain 15 pounds in one night).

Our best chance is to have Tank play NT... You say Tank doe snot have the motor to play NT, but honestly I felt Tank looked better then Dorsey last year, but ya Dorsey will probably end up being the better player. Also, Tank came out of college about 20 pounds heavier then he is now AND all the mocks talked about him being drafted to play NT and I believe was the TOP NT in the draft. HE lost some weight to play in the 4-3 better.

What we need most is a DE/OLB. A guy that can go down in a 4-3 as DE then get up and play OLB in a 3-4.

We also need a "ok" 3-4 DE, but since we will probably be playing BOTH 3-4 AND 4-3 we probably should NOT spend a HIGH draft pick on a guy that will only play when we are set up in a 3-4 at DE.

I agree I think it will be REALLY hard to trade down...

So lets look at a draft with no trades.

1) Brown "DE/OLB"
3) Wood "C"
4) McKillop "MLB"
5) Will Johnson "3-4 DE"
6) Boone "RT"
7) Curtis Taylor "S"
7) Chase Patton "QB"