First Units (so far)

[jmlamerson]

Here's how the Chiefs lined up with their first units during their first full-squad practice:

Offense
QB - Matt Cassel
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe
WR - Mark Bradley
TE - Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Wade Smith (for the absent Brian Waters)
C - Rudy Niswanger
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Damion McIntosh

Defense
LE - Tyson Jackson
NT - Ron Edwards
RE - Alex Magee (for the injured Glenn Dorsey)
OLB - Monty Beisel (for the absent Mike Vrabel)
ILB - Zach Thomas
ILB - Derrick Johnson
OLB - Tamba Hali
CB - Brandon Flowers
CB - Brandon Carr
FS - Jarrad Page
SS - Bernard Pollard

Starting lineups | Red Zone

Most interesting to me is Edwards at NT instead of Tank. Also Bradley instead of Engram at 2WR and that we're keeping Niswanger at C and Goff at RG, instead of vice versa.

[jmlamerson]

Writing him off as a DE before he even gets to play a game, eh?

I think he can be an stopgap DE for us for the next couple years, but I don't think he's our long term solution at the spot. I don't think he has the ability to stop the run, and he's not prototypical 3-4 DE physically.

I'd be happy to be wrong.

I'm surprised no one else is surprised at our NT situation. It doesn't spell great things about Tank's future.

[yashi]

I think he can be an stopgap DE for us for the next couple years, but I don't think he's our long term solution at the spot. I don't think he has the ability to stop the run, and he's not prototypical 3-4 DE physically.

I'd be happy to be wrong.

I'm surprised no one else is surprised at our NT situation. It doesn't spell great things about Tank's future.

I hope you're not saying the same thing next offseason after Jackson and Magee struggle this season...

Defensive linemen are generally bad their rookie years. It's been proven time after time. The good ones break out in year 2 or 3. Richard Seymour was a bad player his first year, Scott Pioli said it himself. Mario Williams was looking like a huge bust.

There's a very good chance Dorsey is by far the best DL on the team this season. There were no knocks on his run stopping ability coming out of college, which leads me to believe he'll be alright with time.

[jmlamerson]

I hope you're not saying the same thing next offseason after Jackson and Magee struggle this season...

Defensive linemen are generally bad their rookie years. It's been proven time after time. The good ones break out in year 2 or 3. Richard Seymour was a bad player his first year, Scott Pioli said it himself. Mario Williams was looking like a huge bust.

There's a very good chance Dorsey is by far the best DL on the team this season. There were no knocks on his run stopping ability coming out of college, which leads me to believe he'll be alright with time.

Defensive linemen take time to mature, sure. They're raw and they don't have the technique or conditioning yet to be NFL pros, moreso than any other position. That being said, the question with Williams, Seymour, Haynesworth, etc. was never their athleticism, size, or strength. It was technique, motor, and conditioning. Dorsey has questions about both the first and second groups. You can't coach height (and Dorsey's on the very short side of 3-4 DEs), and if you add too much muscle to Dorsey he'll lose his speed.

By the way, like Dorsey, Seymour was used as a 4-3 DT his first season. He racked up three sacks and started for the Pats SB team. He wasn't as good as he would be in the future, but he had a much better 1st year than Dorsey.

Dorsey never had big problems against the run in college because he played lighter OL than in the NFL. To be fair to him, he was never projected as a run-stuffing DT and wasn't drafted to be such. Herm drafted him to bring pressure on the QB from the inside of the line. Dorsey has shown to have big problems when playing head-to-head up with OL.

Will he be our best DL this year? Maybe, sure. Jackson and Magee will both need time to adapt to the pro game, Edwards is a journeyman (at best) and I trust Tank as far as I can throw him.

But Dorsey was part of a DL that was one of the worst of all time last year against the run and the pass. Is that all his fault? Of course not. Not even close. But it is a sign that we should be worried about his future with the team.

EDIT: I'd be the first to admit that I trust Pioli's picks more than Herm's. By a long shot. And that I'll give more time to Pioli's guys than I would Herm's.

[Bike]

Zack Thomas isn't to good to participate in these workouts. So why ain't Vrabel around?
And why do I get the impression that Waters gets traded this summer?

[yashi]

Defensive linemen take time to mature, sure. They're raw and they don't have the technique or conditioning yet to be NFL pros, moreso than any other position. That being said, the question with Williams, Seymour, Haynesworth, etc. was never their athleticism, size, or strength. It was technique, motor, and conditioning. Dorsey has questions about both the first and second groups. You can't coach height (and Dorsey's on the very short side of 3-4 DEs), and if you add too much muscle to Dorsey he'll lose his speed.

Sure. 27 reps of 225 would argue that he's not all that weak though. More on this further down.

By the way, like Dorsey, Seymour was used as a 4-3 DT his first season. He racked up three sacks and started for the Pats SB team. He wasn't as good as he would be in the future, but he had a much better 1st year than Dorsey.

I won't argue about Seymour's first year because I really don't know anything about his first year. I'm just going off of what Pioli said a couple weeks ago when he said Seymour was literally a "bad player" his rookie year when talking about what he expected out of Jackson next season.

But Dorsey was part of a DL that was one of the worst of all time last year against the run and the pass. Is that all his fault? Of course not. Not even close. But it is a sign that we should be worried about his future with the team.

He was part of that line. But he was a rookie and I'd argue that he was used incorrectly as well. Most smaller DL will look weak if you have them going straight at a 320 lb OG. Looking back, there wasn't really much to expect. He should have been allowed to penetrate the gaps, and he wasn't. If that's what Herm drafted him to do, he sure didn't let him do it.

EDIT: I'd be the first to admit that I trust Pioli's picks more than Herm's. By a long shot. And that I'll give more time to Pioli's guys than I would Herm's.

As you should, he has a good track record with draft picks, particularly defensive linemen. But it can't be a coincidence that everyone was saying we had the best draft of any team last season. That class will only be going into their 2nd year and should hardly be thrown to the wolves yet. It's not like many of the picks were considered reaches.

Defensive linemen should get a minimum of 2 years before we cast judgment. That's all I'm sayin. Maybe he will be a bust, maybe he won't. But we should at least wait to find out. The guy was a consensus top 5 pick in last season's draft. There has to be potential there. It's not like Herm drafted Darius Heyward-Bey.

[jmlamerson]

Defensive linemen should get a minimum of 2 years before we cast judgment. That's all I'm sayin. Maybe he will be a bust, maybe he won't. But we should at least wait to find out. The guy was a consensus top 5 pick in last season's draft. There has to be potential there. It's not like Herm drafted Darius Heyward-Bey.

For most of your post, I agree entirely. Anyway, there's no real good in debating Dorsey until after the 2009 season. I'll expect the worst and pray for the best. I'd give a lot for you to be right and me to be wrong.

This last paragraph though, bugs me. Everyone did love our 2008 draft, because we drafted maximum value from our picks. We couldn't have gotten guys like Albert, Cottam, Charles, Morgan, Dorsey, etc. any lower than we did. We never reached (except for Franklin).

That being said, except for Carr, Flowers, and Albert, I didn't like our 2008 draft. Three guys are already gone: Franklin, Merritt, and Robinson. I don't see Richardson or Johnston as even second stringers in 2009 - it's practice squad or chopping block. Three guys worked out: Albert, Carr, and Flowers. That leaves Dorsey, Cottam, Charles, and Morgan as the question marks.

For some reason, people keep saying that you don't draft for need. I can see that argument at the top of the 1st round, where salaries are prohibitive, but I think it's nonsense in the later rounds. In 2008, we badly needed OL, DE, LB, WR, and QB. We got very, very lucky with Thigpen and Bradley, so the fact that we didn't draft the last two is forgotten.

Again, except for Albert, Carr (best pick Herm made that wasn't a slam dunk in his whole career), and Flowers, we drafted a bunch of backups and projects. Instead of drafting the things we needed and refused to get in FA, we drafted a project DT, a backup RB, a backup SS, a backup/project TE, and a bunch of reserves (at best). I'm not saying that guys like Morgan, Richardson, Charles, Johnston, etc. are bad players - I just don't see them being starters for us. Why draft a SS when you have a 23-year-old entrenched in the spot? Why draft a speed back like Charles when you don't have an OL to give him gaps in which to run? Why draft Dorsey when you need experience and size on the DL more than anything? As for Cottam, I'll believe it when I see it. Like many Herm picks, he's shown every possible measurable except the ability the ability to stay healthy and productive.

It was a good draft in a purely academic sense, but it was a bad draft in a practical sense. I just don't see us winning many games using most of the players from our 2008 draft.

[jmlamerson]

Zack Thomas isn't to good to participate in these workouts. So why ain't Vrabel around?
And why do I get the impression that Waters gets traded this summer?

I'm not worried about Vrabel or Waters. They're savvy vets, incumbant starters, and they know the schemes. If they miss the voluntary workouts, I don't see it hurting their performance at all in 2009.

I don't think Waters sits out the 2009 season, and I can't see us trading him unless we sign a legitimate OL first. This is already going to be a spotty OL in 2009, with (somehow) McIntosh still on the right side, Albert still learning the pro-set as a LT, and Niswanger iffy at C. Unless someone blows us away with a player or pick, I don't think it happens.

[yashi]

Again, except for Albert, Carr (best pick Herm made that wasn't a slam dunk in his whole career), and Flowers, we drafted a bunch of backups and projects. Instead of drafting the things we needed and refused to get in FA, we drafted a project DT, a backup RB, a backup SS, a backup/project TE, and a bunch of reserves (at best). I'm not saying that guys like Morgan, Richardson, Charles, Johnston, etc. are bad players - I just don't see them being starters for us. Why draft a SS when you have a 23-year-old entrenched in the spot? Why draft a speed back like Charles when you don't have an OL to give him gaps in which to run? Why draft Dorsey when you need experience and size on the DL more than anything? As for Cottam, I'll believe it when I see it. Like many Herm picks, he's shown every possible measurable except the ability the ability to stay healthy and productive.

It's easy to question why teams draft the way they do... hell, Pioli's draft had me questioning the positions he went after several times as well. Why wait until the 5th round to address the offensive line when you just traded for your franchise QB? Why take a nickel corner in the 4th with so many other pressing needs? Why trade back in to take a TE that more than likely wouldn't have been drafted. Why take a kicker at all?

Honestly, I have no idea what most teams are doing when they draft. But anyway, let's look at the 08 draft for second.

Dorsey - Likely won't be worth the #5 pick with the switch to 3-4.

Albert - Franchise LT. Only gave up 2.5 sacks I think, and just one false start. Very solid pick.

Flowers - Very solid. Should be a starter for a long time.

Charles - I actually like Charles a lot. He made some plays for us, and he's the best pass blocking back on the team. I think he's every bit as good as Felix Jones, who went in the 1st round.

Cottam - Who knows yet, but being that Tony G isn't here anymore taking a TE actually turned out to be a smart move.

Morgan - Bad pick for the reasons you stated.

Franklin - Terrible pick. Couldn't even hold a spot on the Lions.

Carr - Excellent.

Richardson - Project RT. About all you can expect in the 6th round. At least it was a lineman.

Robinson - Well, at least he tried to get a kick returner out of the draft.

Johnston - The biggest mistake was waiting to go DE here instead of round 3.

Merritt - Off field disaster, not worth bothering to see if he can play, which I'm sure he can't.

Even if Dorsey doesn't pan out due to scheme or ability, 4-5 out of 12 isn't that bad. Most teams are lucky to come out of a draft with 3 good players out of 7 picks. Dorsey and Cottam are really the wildcards here. Depending on how they turn out the draft can be anywhere from average to very good for me.

[jmlamerson]

It's easy to question why teams draft the way they do... hell, Pioli's draft had me questioning the positions he went after several times as well. Why wait until the 5th round to address the offensive line when you just traded for your franchise QB? Why take a nickel corner in the 4th with so many other pressing needs? Why trade back in to take a TE that more than likely wouldn't have been drafted. Why take a kicker at all?

I understood (and loved) our 1st and 3rd picks. Pioli wanted big guys on the DL to stop the run. He didn't trust our current group to do that after ranking 32nd and 30th against the run the past two years.

I understood the 4th pick a whole lot more than I liked it. Carr and Flowers were good Cover 2 corners, but they probably don't have the speed or size to guard the Marshall's, Moss's, and Owens's of the world man-to-man. Pioli wants a big, fast CB in there to cover the big, fast WRs one-on-one.

That being said, OL is such a need, that it seemed ridiculous to draft a CB instead of a OT or OG. And while Brown may turn out to be a great pick, Herman and Robinson were still on the board and could have started at RG from day 1, with Goff at center.

I think Pioli likes O'Connell's special team abilities, and feared he would be snatched up in FA. I still can't figure why we picked Succop instead of Baker (NT).

The difference, though, between Herm and Pioli is that Pioli isn't even pretending that his lower picks can be starters. Herm sold everyone that a bunch of 5th and 6th rounders would be good enough to man our OL and front seven. Pioli getting starters 1-4 and special teams and role players 5-7. Which is the opposite of Herm.

Honestly, I have no idea what most teams are doing when they draft. But anyway, let's look at the 08 draft for second.

Dorsey - Likely won't be worth the #5 pick with the switch to 3-4.

Be fair. Even if we stuck in the 4-3, it's a questionable pick. Clady at 5 would have been such the better pick for us.

Albert - Franchise LT. Only gave up 2.5 sacks I think, and just one false start. Very solid pick.

I was very happy with Albert in 2008. I just worry how he'll do when we no longer run the spread. But I liked this pick last year and I love it now.

Flowers - Very solid. Should be a starter for a long time.

Like Albert, loved the pick them, love it now.

Charles - I actually like Charles a lot. He made some plays for us, and he's the best pass blocking back on the team. I think he's every bit as good as Felix Jones, who went in the 1st round.

When our other RBs are Kolby and LJ, it isn't hard to be the best pass blocker. I don't think Charles will ever be tough enough to be an every down back. We would have been much better off spending this pick on LB or OT.

Cottam - Who knows yet, but being that Tony G isn't here anymore taking a TE actually turned out to be a smart move.

It's only a smart move if Cottam's good.

Morgan - Bad pick for the reasons you stated.

I wouldn't hate this pick so much if I could understand it.

Franklin - Terrible pick. Couldn't even hold a spot on the Lions.

Herm wanted someone who could stretch the field. Like with many of his picks, Herm forgot that football is a contact sport.

Carr - Excellent.

I love this pick. Carr was our MVP last year (IMO).

Richardson - Project RT. About all you can expect in the 6th round. At least it was a lineman.

Robinson - Well, at least he tried to get a kick returner out of the draft.

Johnston - The biggest mistake was waiting to go DE here instead of round 3.

Merritt - Off field disaster, not worth bothering to see if he can play, which I'm sure he can't.

It's hard to mock bad 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders. They're roulette picks. But my point is that we shouldn't have been counting on 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders to fill our DE and OT spots, and Herm was counting on these guys to come in and start immediately.

Even if Dorsey doesn't pan out due to scheme or ability, 4-5 out of 12 isn't that bad. Most teams are lucky to come out of a draft with 3 good players out of 7 picks. Dorsey and Cottam are really the wildcards here. Depending on how they turn out the draft can be anywhere from average to very good for me.

It isn't that 3 (my count) out of 12 is bad (25%). I'm happy that we got three long-term starters out of one draft. It's just that (1) fans massively overrated the draft, along with most of Herm's drafts; (2) we could have used those picks to fill obvious holes; and (3) we bypassed FA in 2008, after losing our best player (JA), because we had such faith in Herm's drafting abilities.

I mean, out of Herm's 2006-2008 drafts, we got as 2009 starters: Dorsey, Page, Pollard, Flowers, Carr, Albert, Cottam, and Bowe (8 of 22 starters, 8 of 26 picks). Of those eight, Dorsey and Cottam are question marks, and I don't trust Page at FS. To my count, that's only five solid starters from those three drafts. That should be enough to convince most people that Herm was not the drafting genius everyone thought.

[Three7s]

Not to interrupt this little discussion going on, but is anyone else kind of confused at Derrick Johnson starting at ILB? I know that his coverage skills aren't bad, but this guy can't seem to snare even the easiest of interceptions, and I feel like OLB would fit his strength set more.

Of course, I'm not genius.