How to fix the Chiefs

[jmlamerson]

The Chiefs are one of more interesting teams in the league, and could be one of the easiest to rebuild. In my opinion, the following owould be the best way:

1. Be very, very active in free agency and fix your lines.

Sign free agents O-linemen Jordan Gross (LT) and Marc Colombo (RT) to long term deals. Both are under 30. Overpay both of them if you have to and you will). Make gross the highest paid o-lineman in the league if you have to (and you'll have to) - just get them signed. This will also allow you to move Albert back to his natural position at RG and shoudl give the Chiefs an above average o-line.

Then sign Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth to long term deals for your d-line. All are under 30. Overpay them if you have to. Keep Dorsey at DT. The Chiefs will have the cap room to do this, even if you ignore step 2.

2. Clear out the dead weight.

Cut Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, MacIntosh, Donnie Edwards, all WRs not named Bowe, Pollard, Tank, Turk, Surtain, and every other project player that hasn't worked out. Try to trade those tradable and cut the rest.

3. Fix the QB position

Sign JP Losman to a two-year deal for near the minimum. Draft Stafford out of Georgia with the overall number 1 pick (which KC probably will have). Sit Stafford for a year at least and don't get him killed.

4. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

This will be difficult, but a new regime committed to winning might be able to do it.

5. Don't cut or trade LJ

It makes no sense to cut him and eat his cap hit. Try to get 2-3 good years out of him. Behind a revamped line and with a good QB, he may become rejuvinated.

6. Draft well

Everyone needs to stop pretending Herm Edwards has drafted well. He hasn't, and most of his draft picks will be out of the league when their rookie contracts are up.

Even if the free agency plan above goes to plan, the Chiefs are still deficient at most positions. Stafford in the 1st round, and some mixture of WR, OL, LB, and CB over the rest. Do NOT draft any more DTs, RBs, TEs, or Ss.

7. Clean out the coaches and management personnel

Even if they weren't terrible at their jobs (and they are), you need to do this to rebuild faith in the franchise.

Cowher probably won't coach here (quit dreaming, people). Get Lane Kiffin (at least he'll care about Raiders games). Let him rebuild his staff. Throw a dumptruck of money at Scott Pioli to GM here.

What do you think?

[texaschief]

Haven't you ever noticed that you are easily considered the least respected member of this board?

Have a look at your 'Rep'. That really tells the story, and I don't think I have ever even given you neg-rep. That has been the rest of the site.



I never even bother with posts from Grbac, as it is just way too far-fetched to be a real opinion.



87.5 for his career. I'm just sayin'.

Peyton Manning currently has a passerr rating of 79 for the season. I'm just sayin'.

And showing that there were great picks that could have been used in place of getting Green and Roaf is futile.

But, if you want to, let's compare every pick that Herm took ahead of Jared Allen and Tom Brady, and say that he is a horrible talent evaluator.

My value for a 1st and a 2nd is gonna be a vague guess at the avreage production from them. Not the best possible pick that could have been made.

Anyway, (DT) Damione Lewis < http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/...LAhOQzGnX.uLYF > is the player that was drafted with the Green-swap pick. And The Chiefs also gained a 5th round pick, which they used to select (HB)Derrick Blaylock. < http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/...LAhOQzGnX.uLYF >

Looking at it like that, I'd say we did exceptionally well with that pick. You?

And the 4th round pick that went for Roaf was used to select (G) Montrae Holland < http://www.nfl.com/players/montraeho...e?id=HOL154433 >

I'd also say that we got the better end of that deal.

Trade compensation sources:
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2002/03...t_willie_roaf/
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2001/04...lmes__wr_horne

If you didn't trade a first and second for Green, you'd still have the same needs to fill. So, with that first round pick, the Chiefs could have either traded it for more picks OR draft the next QB. The next QB taken was Drew Brees. So, it not like i was just Cherry picking whoever i wanted.

So, after you draft a QB, the next hole to fill would be LT. That's why we traded for Roaf. If we had kept that 2nd round pick, we would've drafted to fill that LT spot and would've picked the best LT still available.

I'm not saying trading a 4th round pick for Roaf was a horrible decision. I'm saying it didn't help build the team for the future.

Btw, are you aware you compared Green's 87.5 CAREER PASSER RATING (which is actually 86.7) to Peyton Mannings current SEASON passer rating of 79?

Personally, I'd rather have 10 years of Peyton's 94.0 passer rating than 5 years of Green's 86.7.... I'M JUST SAYING.

[texaschief]

OK, going through these one by one, just to put the final nails in your coffin:

1. Just be a man and admit you were wrong about Bulger. Linehan was fired for benching him.

I was NOT wrong. Linehan knew Bulger was NOT a good QB. His mistake was relying on your beloved Trent Green to bail him out.

2. What are you talking about, with regards to Miami? Pennington is an upgrade over Beck or Lemon (who isn't). He's still not a franchise (or top 15) QB. He'll be only playing for them for 2-3 years. His job is to keep Miami competitive and to tutor Beck. He's not their franchise QB.

I never said he was a franchise QB. I was telling you that QB's ACTUALLY DO make a difference in outcomes of games. You actually think EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM THIS TEAM HAS belongs to the head coach and that not having a QB, is just secondary. It's not. My example to prove this point was the Dolphins. Do you honestly think they'd have a win this year if the QBs they had last season were still leading this team? Those 2 QBs are better than what the Chiefs have had to this point in the season.

You can't expect a team to be consistently competitive if the QB is playing poorly. The three good games the Chiefs have had this season, their average QB rating is 97.16 with only 1 INT. In their five bad games this season, the avg. QB rating is 51.72 with 7 INTs. But, that's all bad play calling, right?



It's fine to prep a player. In fact, everything being equal that would be ideal. It isn't OK to draft a guy in the third round in a position you're glutted in when you have massive holes in the OL.

You DO realize Dunn retired, right? You do realize our running game and offense requires TWO TE's, right? So, could you point out who that other TE would be? What is this "glutton" you're talking about? Is Gonzo, (a single player who's one play away from being done for the year) the "glutton?" I'm confused. Seriously. If we hadn't drafted Cottam in the 3rd, who would be the other TE right now? Personally, I'm just happy they waited till the 3rd where they ACTUALLY HAD a relative glutton of picks to draft a TE.

You might have a point if they had taken a TE in the first or second round. But if you're going to take a player that you're going to rely on for the foreseeable future, he should be taken in the first three rounds. I think they got a steal in the 3rd by drafting Cottam there. He was slatted to be a 1st round pick his junior year until an injury his senior year. That's why he fell. Cottam was a good pick.

3. Your points on Atlanta and Miami are poorly thought out.

Atlanta was not considered a championship caliber team before Vick's incarceration. They were a 3-13 team last year. They turned it around because they got a real coach and GM, got a franchise QB, signed a hard working young RB, and drafted their lines.

wow. they did what? they drafted a guard in the 2nd round in 2006 they drafted an OT in the 5th. Their ONLY "LINE PICK" that year. They drafted an OG in 2007 in the 2nd RD, TE in the 4th and a DT in the 6th as their ONLY "LINE PICKS" and in 2008, they drafted OT Sam Baker in the 1st and DE in the 5th. That's 5 "line picks" of 27 in the past 3 years.

In 2006 they drafted OT Ojinnaka. He has started 7 games in 3 years.

In 2007 they drafted OG Justin Blalock. Started 21 games in 2 years... as a 2nd rounder should.

Also drafted TE Martrez Milner. On the NYG practice squad.

Also drafted DT Trey Lewis. Played 9 games in 2007. Not currently playing.

In 2008 they drafted OT Sam Baker. has played in 5 of 7 games this season.

Also drafted DE Kroy Brieman. Hasn't starter a game this season. But, has 7 tackles in 5 games.

Now, compare that to the Chiefs who have drafted 10 "line picks" over that same time period.

Hali, Taylor, Tyler, McBride, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Cottam, Albert and Dorsey are still with the team. So don't give me that, "the Falcons drafted on their lines" bullsh!#. The Chiefs have doubled their efforts on the line AND have had much more success.

You say they got a "real coach." Please define a "real coach," because Mike Smith would NOT be at the top of anyone's list as head coaches they want. In fact, the hiring of Mike Smith was a shock to everyone in the league. Smith has done nothing of note during his career.

But, yes! The did finally get that franchise QB and the team went from awful last year, to division contenders this year. But QBs are just secondary and aren't responsible for win, right?

Mike Smith was an excellent coordinator who has the Falcons overachieving. He looks like he'll be a great head coach. Am I ready to anoint him the next Bill Walsh? No. Would I rather have him (or John Harbaugh) than Herm Edwards? Absolutely.

why

As for the Ravens, their D is good because they have consistently drafted good linemen (Ngata, Suggs, etc.). Their offense is usually their weakest spot, but their OL is keeping their new franchise QB upright. They have a great GM and Harbaugh looks like the real deal at coach. They have rebuilt in exactly the way the chiefs should have - draft lines, sign a good coach, and pick a franchise QB who can stand a NFL hit.

First, Suggs is an OLB. Why does Harbaugh "look like the real deal?" What has he done? Ozzie Newsome is an OK GM. Hell, in the 90's everyone thought Peterson was a "great GM." The Ravens have gone to one Super Bowl and he has yet to build a long-term juggernaut team. Labeling him great is drinking the Kool-aid. But i wouldn't expect anything less from you.

Also, the Ravens have allowed 16 sacks this season. That's only 6 less than the Chiefs have allowed. Again, it would be nice if you actually did some research before you opened your mouth.

3. Chicago built its team through the draft and through FA. Indy built its team mostly through the draft, I'll fully admit. But when you have geniuses like Bill Polian/Tony Dungy drafting, you can do that. Tony Dungy is smart enough to leave his offense in capable hands (they don't play Dungyball). He drafts OL and DL constantly in the first three rounds. Herm and Carl draft TEs, Ss, and RBs in the first three rounds. They don't have the drafting abilities to build through the draft.

And if you think Herm Edwards is a tenth as good as Tony Dungy or Lovie Smith as a coach, you know less than I thought you did. Dungy is the greatest defensive coach of the modern era. Lovie is in the top 5. Herm's defense is as bad a Vermeil's.

Yes. Herm's/Gunther's defenses are bad. Not as bad as Vermeil's, but they're bad. BUT, this is the problem most Chief's fans have. They don't understand that the Chiefs' problems NOW are different than they were with Dick. Dick's problem was he was trying to build a team from FA cast offs who should've been backups. They didn't have talent.

NOW, the Chiefs have talent, but they just don't have experience. They make really bad mistakes that you'd expect from young players. The scheme isn't bad, they're just young players.

4. If I wanted proof of your complete lack of knowledge about football, here it is:

Minnesota? They might have a good offensive line, but their defensive line is statistically worse than the Chiefs... so.... try again.

In what statistical area is the Vikings DL worse than the Chiefs DL? The Vikings DL has more tackles and sacks. The Vikings are 2nd in the league against the run.

Are you only ignorant, or did you just think no one would question this lie?

Minnestoa
Allen -22 tkls
P. Williams-26 tkls
K. Williams-32 tkls
Edwards -20 tkls
100 tackles

KC
Hali -24 tkls 1 sack
Dorsey -19 tkls
Tyler -29 tkls
McBride-28 tkls
100 tackles

The last time i looked at the two lines statistically, the Chiefs were by far the better line. Now they're even. My bad. LMAO... you sure showed me.

....

[texaschief]

6. Why are you being dense about the Tony G. situation? We will not have Tony G. as a TE in 2009. He will retire or demand a trade. We will get less than the third we were offered in the middle of the season. We have no chance of winning this year. Cottam is supposed to be our TE of the future. How does it make sense to keep Tony?

If you don't understand this, you may want to get a CAT scan.

sigh. I'm the one being dense, huh? Tony can "demand a trade" all he wants. If the team doesn't get what it wants in return, he's stuck. He signed a contract. That was his mistake. Gonzo won't retire this off season if he isn't traded. It's funny watching you running around like chicken little screaming "they sky is falling!!!!" lol

7. Where in this league would Tamba Hali, Page, or Smith start? I noticed you couldn't name a team. Nowhere, that is the answer.

Page would start for the Patriots.
Hali would start for the Texans.
Smith would start for the Jets.

I had been ignoring this question because you're dumb enough to try to argue this and i don't feel talking to a child who's knows nothing about talent evaluation more than is necessary.

Look, a 1st to 3rd year players doesn't need to play like a Pro Bowler to be legitimate starters. However, after watching a player for two to three years, you are usually able to determine whether that player will turn into a legitimate starter.

Are you kidding? You're willing to get rid of a first round pick after 3 years? That's just stupid.

After two to three years of watching Page, Hali, and Smith start, I can say definitively that not only are they not Pro Bowl players, they are in the bottom 10% of players at their position in the NFL, and they do not show enough talent that I think they will improve upon that.

Really? Could you show me some statistics to back this up? Again, you say all this crap without backing it up.

When you have a team with a lot of talent, like the Pats or Cowboys, you can draft for depth and bring players along slowly. When you have an average team, like the Eagles or Broncos, you use your early picks to fill needs, and then you draft for depth in the later rounds to bring around slowly. When you have a bad team, like the Chiefs or Lions, you draft people you think can help you now, and you sign FAs to fill in the most pressing gaps.

Or, you can develop player through the draft. There is more than just one way to get from point A to point B. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be a straight line. If you could show patience, player development is THE BEST way to establish a dominant long-term team. Have you ever thought that maybe the players who are playing right now on this team might actually be the backups later? You act like the Chiefs won't be drafting starters in the future. Some of the guys on this team will be backing up future draft picks. Believe it or not.

The Chiefs drafted like a great team instead of a bad one. Which is why they're a worse team than they were last year.

They're a worse team this year for different reasons. They're a bad team for the RIGHT reason. They're young and talented without a QB. Last year, they were bad because they were OLD and untalented without a QB.

Looks like those nails didn't hold there, hoss.

[nigeriannightmare]

They're a worse team this year for different reasons. They're a bad team for the RIGHT reason. They're young and talented without a QB. Last year, they were bad because they were OLD and untalented without a QB.

Looks like those nails didn't hold there, hoss.

You forgot to mention our HC, and his wonderful record as one in the league, But hey, he won a couple of playoff games with a team Parcells built and when those contracts ran out, he ran that team into the ground.

[texaschief]

You forgot to mention our HC, and his wonderful record as one in the league, But hey, he won a couple of playoff games with a team Parcells built and when those contracts ran out, he ran that team into the ground.

If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt. Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season. THOSE years are more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach. You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did. Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did. You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

That's dumb.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.

[okikcfan]

You know, I'm all for the rebuilding the Chiefs Team, but, did we have to completly clean house and start fresh? Most teams rebuild over a period of two to three years tops. Not us, that's why we are in the shape we are in. It all goes back to Herm and Carl

[texaschief]

You know, I'm all for the rebuilding the Chiefs Team, but, did we have to completly clean house and start fresh? Most teams rebuild over a period of two to three years tops. Not us, that's why we are in the shape we are in. It all goes back to Herm and Carl

who was cut/left that you wish we still had? the only one i can think of that MIGHT qualify is Mitchell. But for what he just signed for, I'm happy with Thomas.

The only thing we've given up statistically this year is two sacks and a pick. When you compare the two players. Although, Thomas has made four more tackles and is the more athletic players. Not to mention younger by four seasons. If you were to tell me at the beginning of the season that we had the option to develop a player at MLB or sign Mitchell but still get the same production, I'd go with development.

But that just might be me.

Compare Thomas' stats to the best MLB in the game in Urlacher. Urlacher has 41 tackles. no sacks. no picks. no forced fumbles.

We're not exactly missing an average MLB at the very least. Anyone who can be compared to the best MLB in the league half way through the season isn't a bad player.

[nigeriannightmare]

If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt. Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season. THOSE years are more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach. You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did. Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did. You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

That's dumb.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.

A good coach handles adversity and rallies the team around it. Look at who was coaching those 3 teams (Vermeil, Cowher, Bilichek). According to you the only time Herm can be accountable is when his week 1 starter lasts the entire 16 game season, and you are calling me dumb.

Brodie was Herm's pick. knowing all of the injuries, and still drafts him. I lay that at Herm's feet. We are back to sqaure 1 at the QB position, not to mention all of the other needs this team has.

5-18 over the last 2 seasons, but only if his week 1 starter had lasted. He is a paid professional, handling adversity comes with the territory. The good coaches do it, the band ones say but only if....

[texaschief]

A good coach handles adversity and rallies the team around it. Look at who was coaching those 3 teams (Vermeil, Cowher, Bilichek). According to you the only time Herm can be accountable is when his week 1 starter lasts the entire 16 game season, and you are calling me dumb.

Brodie was Herm's pick. knowing all of the injuries, and still drafts him. I lay that at Herm's feet. We are back to sqaure 1 at the QB position, not to mention all of the other needs this team has.

5-18 over the last 2 seasons, but only if his week 1 starter had lasted. He is a paid professional, handling adversity comes with the territory. The good coaches do it, the band ones say but only if....

lol. really? so, you're saying the reason Herm is a bad coach is because he didn't have a pro bowl QB behind Pennington and Croyle? Croyle set every passing record at Alabama. Croyle's injuries at Alabama were just like the one Tom Brady had this season. He was rolled up on twice. Coming out of college, Croyle had better numbers and was a much better athlete overall than Tom Brady. He was a better prospect than a lot of QBs over the past 3 years taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft. He wasn't a bad pick.

But, let's just say that Croyle was an AWFUL pick and a horrible decision by Herman Edwards alone. Let's say he WAS too small to be a franchise QB and he IS way too injury prone to be counted on at 6'2, 206. Why was drafting Chad Pennington a poor choice? His measurables are almost identicle to Tom Brady. But he was so good coming out of college, that he was taken 18th overall.

Pennington fractured a bone in his non throwing hand in the preseason on 2003. (But that was Herm's fault). Then, tore his rotator cuff in 2004 (three seasons after he was drafted, but that was Herm's fault too). The Jets GM saw an emerging star at the QB spot prior to this injury and gave him a huge contract. (but that was Herm's fault) He then, came back with his shoulder still injured and led that team to the playoffs. After the season, it was revealed that he still had a MAJOR tear in his shoulder and had it operated on.

Then, came back in 2005 too soon and re-injured the shoulder. Had his second surgery and was done for the year after a couple bad games.

In 2006, He redeemed himself, led the Jets to the playoffs with the team HERMAN EDWARDS BUILT and was labeled the "Comeback Player of the Year."

After a horrible start in 2007, Mangini decided to go ahead and start their QB of the future in Clemens. Now, Pennington is leading a surprising Miami team that won only 1 game last season.

As for Croyle, yeah. It was a bad decision to build your franchise around a guy with a history of knee injuries. I'm not arguing that. I didn't like the pick when they made it. But the fact that they built an entire team and offensive system around him plays HUGE into the success of this team. With him out, the offense doesn't work.

You're seeing Herm's decisions and adjustments right now with Thigpen. They've completely revamped the offense to the college style spread offense that just made Thigpen look better in his second start, than Bret Favre!!! Is that the kind of "overcoming adversity" you were talking about? He's putting a 7th round pick who's in his second year as a pro at the head of an NFL football team and just made him look like he's in the prime of his career and was drafted in the first round, and you don't see coaching adjustments?

Also, i didn't say he's only accountable during seasons where he had his week 1 starter the whole season. I said, those are the seasons where you can actually judge what he can do with a healthy team. That's a fact.

[Drunker Hillbilly]

If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt. Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season. THOSE years are more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach. You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did. Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did. You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

That's dumb.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.

"You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm". You said this right?


Who gets the praise for the change in the Dolphins? They are still a bad tam but much better than last season. Bt your logic, it can't be Parcells because he is the new guy.